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Keep Enstrom or not [Enstrom waived NMC for XD]

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Old
06-07-2017, 05:36 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by Mortimer Snerd View Post
Agree - although I'd rather he was pushed down to 3rd pair by a better player. But that is really a different story.

The immediate issue with Toby though is magnified by the XD. It would be different if he were a couple of years younger and under contract for a couple of years more. But he is aging out and under contract for only 1 more year. That is not a very good equation compared to 24 YO, team controlled Adam Lowry.

But that is not the real equation if we accept that we have to get to 7+3. Then it is either 1 year of Enstrom or 2 years of injury prone Myers. That would be the choice IF we are determined to go 7+3.
You mean1 year of 32 year old injury prone enstrom or 2 years 28 year old of injury prone myers who by the way makes 6.5 mill in total for 2 years instead of 5.75 for 1 year.

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06-07-2017, 05:52 PM
  #77
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Echoing other thoughts here.

Yeah, Enstrom on the second pairing isn't ideal, and I wish he was a little less expensive, and hopefully last year was an aberration, and not the beginnings of a sharp decline...

BUT, this team has a lot more problems than a slightly below average 2nd pairing LHD/slightly expensive and above average 3rd pairing LHD

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06-07-2017, 06:52 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Zhamnov5GoalGame View Post
For loyalty and cash reasons they won't buy him out.
I somewhat doubt they would even ask him to waive.
Last season started pretty decent for him.
His pts per game were up slightly, but that regressed quickly.

Someone mentioned signing him for 3 or 3.5 for 3 years. If that's the per year salary then that is way too high to be helpful to setting up a good team budget. Stuarts 2.5 on the 3rd pair / pressbox is tough. 3.5 would be very tough to manage as we sign the youngsters.
For loyalty reasons he should be okay with taking one for the team

Guy is getting old and injured quite a bit. He must know this. Probably doesn't see him playing hockey for too much longer
It's my guess when someone regresses at that age with injuries

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06-07-2017, 06:58 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Mortimer Snerd View Post
What makes you think he will only get 3rd pair minutes? Who's going to play 2nd pair?
Oh, I don't. There seems to be a thought out there among many people looking on that this is the case though. The operative word in my post would be 'If', addressing the scenario where this is the case.

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06-07-2017, 07:30 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by thegr8one66 View Post
What I don't understand is why some people actually think Enstrom would waive his NMC? Why would he waive to possibly get selected by Vegas and uproot his family and go play for an expansion team?

And we need to keep Myers. He's a really good defensemen who had a tough personal issue the 2nd half of the season. He'll be fine in 2017-18. He's 6'7" and you can't teach that.

Armia, Copp, Dano are all expendable pieces. We go 4 and 4 and make a deal with Vegas to protect a forward (Perreault or Lowry) Chevy feels the need to keep. That's my prediction.
It's not like te Jets aren't talkng to LV beforehand. It's silly to think we're just going to come up with a 7-3-1 or 4-4-1 and just cross our fingers blindly.

We'd probably approach LV and say we want to keep Perreault and Lowry. What is the sweetener you want to select someone else? If it's unreasonable, we can say one of our options is to buy out Enstrom and LV will not get as good a player if you took the first option. Haggle a bit, and they'll settle. LV will take someone like Dano/Armia/Copp and get a third round sweetener.

I am not expecting to lose Perreault or Lowry.

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06-07-2017, 07:36 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by ffh View Post
You mean1 year of 32 year old injury prone enstrom or 2 years 28 year old of injury prone myers who by the way makes 6.5 mill in total for 2 years instead of 5.75 for 1 year.
Correct. Enstrom has missed 54 in the last 3 years, an average of 64 games played per year. IIRC that is exactly the same avg as Tanev and all we see in trade proposals is how injury prone he is. After only 11 games last year Myers' avg is down to 52/yr over the last 3. Just for context. BTW Bogo has averaged 61 games over those 3 years.

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06-07-2017, 07:38 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Bristo View Post
Oh, I don't. There seems to be a thought out there among many people looking on that this is the case though. The operative word in my post would be 'If', addressing the scenario where this is the case.
Yes. The 'if' depends on us acquiring a LHD better than Toby. I'm not counting on that happening.

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06-07-2017, 08:44 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Guffman View Post
It's not like te Jets aren't talkng to LV beforehand. It's silly to think we're just going to come up with a 7-3-1 or 4-4-1 and just cross our fingers blindly.

We'd probably approach LV and say we want to keep Perreault and Lowry. What is the sweetener you want to select someone else? If it's unreasonable, we can say one of our options is to buy out Enstrom and LV will not get as good a player if you took the first option. Haggle a bit, and they'll settle. LV will take someone like Dano/Armia/Copp and get a third round sweetener.

I am not expecting to lose Perreault or Lowry.
I do think they're talking to Vegas. I think they'll go 4-4-1.

Forwards to protect:

Scheifele
Wheeler
Little
Perreault

Defense to protect:

Buff
Trouba
Enstrom
Myers

Goalie to protect:

Hellebucyk

Then make a deal so they don't take Lowry.

Expect to lose one of:

Armia
Copp
Petan
Dano

But that's just what I would do (and what I feel Chevy will do).

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06-07-2017, 08:52 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by thegr8one66 View Post
I do think they're talking to Vegas. I think they'll go 4-4-1.

Forwards to protect:

Scheifele
Wheeler
Little
Perreault

Defense to protect:

Buff
Trouba
Enstrom
Myers

Goalie to protect:

Hellebucyk

Then make a deal so they don't take Lowry.

Expect to lose one of:

Armia
Copp
Petan
Dano

But that's just what I would do (and what I feel Chevy will do).
Yup, that's how it will probably play out.

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06-07-2017, 08:56 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thegr8one66 View Post
I do think they're talking to Vegas. I think they'll go 4-4-1.

Forwards to protect:

Scheifele
Wheeler
Little
Perreault

Defense to protect:

Buff
Trouba
Enstrom
Myers

Goalie to protect:

Hellebucyk

Then make a deal so they don't take Lowry.

Expect to lose one of:

Armia
Copp
Petan
Dano

But that's just what I would do (and what I feel Chevy will do).
So what is the sweetener? Basically they are making a deal with LV to protect 4 d and 5 F. What extra do you see them offering LV to be able to keep what they want?

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06-07-2017, 09:40 PM
  #86
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I haven't read much of the thread but to just give my thoughts:

Enstrom on an IDEAL second pairing is extremely beneficial to the Jets. The problem is, we have such a poor third pairing that our second pairing plays the same duration of other teams' first pairings. Add that to Enstrom's personal struggles outside of hockey the last year, and you see the results.

I'll defer to Garret's "Closing Thoughts" in his article: https://jetsnation.ca/2017/05/25/pil...rom-2016-2017/
Quote:
Enstrom likely still has one-to-three years of top-four defender quality impact still in him. Finding a player to leap ahead of him would be fairly costly, in either or both assets to acquire and salary to spend.

Honestly, the Jets defensive group should be much better even with no changes made.

Overall, the teamís health will more likely be better than worse. Trouba and Morrissey are at ages where we expect natural progression simply from their aging curves (Morrissey more so than Trouba). Enstrom had a worse offensive season than we should expect for next year, while Byfuglien had a worse defensive season than we should expect for next year. Myers should be healthy enough to be one of the best third-pairing defenders in the NHL, and is more than capable in filling in the top-four for injury issues. Paul Postma, if extended, is only a marginal downgrade over Myers, incase he is injured.

If I had a voice, I would not advise the Jets to find someone to supersede Enstrom, but rather someone to fit in between Enstrom and Ben Chiarot.

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06-08-2017, 04:07 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by WPGChief View Post
I haven't read much of the thread but to just give my thoughts:

Enstrom on an IDEAL second pairing is extremely beneficial to the Jets. The problem is, we have such a poor third pairing that our second pairing plays the same duration of other teams' first pairings. Add that to Enstrom's personal struggles outside of hockey the last year, and you see the results.

I'll defer to Garret's "Closing Thoughts" in his article: https://jetsnation.ca/2017/05/25/pil...rom-2016-2017/
I agree with this post.

Trouba's future and Myers health are both wildcards but wtih average health we shouldn't have a short term issue with our D core. Once we get past next season though our depth, expiring contracts, and shaky prospect pool are all concerning starting as early as the 2018-19 season. A little luck would help with one of the prospects (Niku, Poolman) exceeding expectations.


A growing concern for me is the talent evaluation skills of an organization who most likely don't extend Postma yet keeps Chiarot, Melchiori, and drafts Stanley but that is one man's opinion.

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06-08-2017, 06:43 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by ps241 View Post
I agree with this post.

Trouba's future and Myers health are both wildcards but wtih average health we shouldn't have a short term issue with our D core. Once we get past next season though our depth, expiring contracts, and shaky prospect pool are all concerning starting as early as the 2018-19 season. A little luck would help with one of the prospects (Niku, Poolman) exceeding expectations.


A growing concern for me is the talent evaluation skills of an organization who most likely don't extend Postma yet keeps Chiarot, Melchiori, and drafts Stanley but that is one man's opinion.
Look at where we would be if Morrissey didn't take a big leap last year. If he took one more year, we'd be talking worst record in the NHL.

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06-08-2017, 06:54 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Tom ServoMST3K View Post
Look at where we would be if Morrissey didn't take a big leap last year. If he took one more year, we'd be talking worst record in the NHL.
It helped offset the mind numbing 117 man games lost from our top 4 of Enstrom, Trouba, Myers, and Buff.

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06-08-2017, 07:01 AM
  #90
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Originally Posted by ps241 View Post
It helped offset the mind numbing 117 man games lost from our top 4 of Enstrom, Trouba, Myers, and Buff.
This. If we spend a year healthy I think people see our D group in a very different light. It is not only the man games lost, but then having to over play Buff which greatly reduces his effectiveness. Assuming none of our D are lost in the XD we are really only a 5/6 LHD away from a really strong group.

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06-08-2017, 09:28 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by thegr8one66 View Post
I do think they're talking to Vegas. I think they'll go 4-4-1.

Forwards to protect:

Scheifele
Wheeler
Little
Perreault

Defense to protect:

Buff
Trouba
Enstrom
Myers

Goalie to protect:

Hellebucyk

Then make a deal so they don't take Lowry.

Expect to lose one of:


Armia
Copp
Petan
Dano

But that's just what I would do (and what I feel Chevy will do).
So what goes in this deal for them to not take Lowry? Does that mean we lose 2 from that list? BTW, Petan is exempt.

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06-08-2017, 09:34 AM
  #92
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Originally Posted by WPGChief View Post
I haven't read much of the thread but to just give my thoughts:

Enstrom on an IDEAL second pairing is extremely beneficial to the Jets. The problem is, we have such a poor third pairing that our second pairing plays the same duration of other teams' first pairings. Add that to Enstrom's personal struggles outside of hockey the last year, and you see the results.

I'll defer to Garret's "Closing Thoughts" in his article: https://jetsnation.ca/2017/05/25/pil...rom-2016-2017/
Quoting Garret, the bits you had bolded: "Enstrom likely still has one-to-three years of top-four defender quality impact still in him. Finding a player to leap ahead of him would be fairly costly, in either or both assets to acquire and salary to spend." and "If I had a voice, I would not advise the Jets to find someone to supersede Enstrom, but rather someone to fit in between Enstrom and Ben Chiarot."

The first part concedes that Toby will need replacing in the top 4 in 1-3 years. So the 2nd part takes care of the immediate need but there will still be that need to replace Toby.

Someone to push Chiarot down, leaving Toby as 2LHD would be adequate in the short term but someone who could push Toby down to 3LD would be much better.

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06-08-2017, 09:53 AM
  #93
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Originally Posted by KingBogo View Post
So what is the sweetener? Basically they are making a deal with LV to protect 4 d and 5 F. What extra do you see them offering LV to be able to keep what they want?
Draft picks.

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06-08-2017, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Mortimer Snerd View Post
So what goes in this deal for them to not take Lowry? Does that mean we lose 2 from that list? BTW, Petan is exempt.
Even better that Petan is exempt.

I think we lose 1 from that list. We deal them a draft pick, or two, for them not to take Lowry.

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06-08-2017, 10:07 AM
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Even better that Petan is exempt.

I think we lose 1 from that list. We deal them a draft pick, or two, for them not to take Lowry.
If it takes a high pick I'd rather lose Lowry. If its not a high pick LV would rather take Lowry.

Everybody seems to be assuming that these deals with LV will be easy and cheap. I don't think they will. For one thing, every team in the league is trying to make the same deal.

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06-08-2017, 10:26 AM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Mortimer Snerd View Post
So what goes in this deal for them to not take Lowry? Does that mean we lose 2 from that list? BTW, Petan is exempt.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mortimer Snerd View Post
If it takes a high pick I'd rather lose Lowry. If its not a high pick LV would rather take Lowry.

Everybody seems to be assuming that these deals with LV will be easy and cheap. I don't think they will. For one thing, every team in the league is trying to make the same deal.
I concur, sir. If it takes a high draft pick for Lowry, they can have him Lol.

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06-08-2017, 12:23 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Mortimer Snerd View Post
If it takes a high pick I'd rather lose Lowry. If its not a high pick LV would rather take Lowry.

Everybody seems to be assuming that these deals with LV will be easy and cheap. I don't think they will. For one thing, every team in the league is trying to make the same deal.
The pitch to LV is this:

Jets are willing to buy-out Enstrom and will therefore be protecting the following forwards:

Schiefele, Wheeler, Little, Lowry, Perreault, Armia, and Dano.

LV, that means you're stuck with Copp. But listen LV...we wouldn't mind not buying out Enstrom, so we'll consider offering up your choice of Armia or Dano...plus, maybe a third round pick or a B prospect.

Now, if you're LV, what do you do? Accept the deal. If they refuse/get greedy, Jets should just buy out Enstrom and protect all of their key forwards.

No way LV is getting Lowry or Perreault. I don't even think the Jets need to add a third round pick or prospect, though it depends how vested they are in keeping Enstrom if they need that added juice.

And even going beyond this deal, the Jets have a lot of prospects that LV should be interested in since they can't keep all 30 players. So, there is potential for us to get a roster player (goalie, defense) for our young guys/prospects. This could also be partof the negotiations over who we give up for the XD.

No way we go into this draft protecting 4-4-1 and losing a Lowry or Perreault. That would be bad asset management in my opinion.

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06-08-2017, 12:39 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by Guffman View Post
The pitch to LV is this:

Jets are willing to buy-out Enstrom and will therefore be protecting the following forwards:

Schiefele, Wheeler, Little, Lowry, Perreault, Armia, and Dano.

LV, that means you're stuck with Copp. But listen LV...we wouldn't mind not buying out Enstrom, so we'll consider offering up your choice of Armia or Dano...plus, maybe a third round pick or a B prospect.

Now, if you're LV, what do you do? Accept the deal. If they refuse/get greedy, Jets should just buy out Enstrom and protect all of their key forwards.

No way LV is getting Lowry or Perreault. I don't even think the Jets need to add a third round pick or prospect, though it depends how vested they are in keeping Enstrom if they need that added juice.

And even going beyond this deal, the Jets have a lot of prospects that LV should be interested in since they can't keep all 30 players. So, there is potential for us to get a roster player (goalie, defense) for our young guys/prospects. This could also be partof the negotiations over who we give up for the XD.

No way we go into this draft protecting 4-4-1 and losing a Lowry or Perreault. That would be bad asset management in my opinion.
I think the jets protect Lowry over perreault. I agree we can't lose either. The problem is how much do other teams value perrault. If 3 teams value him very high we would need to match their offer or vegas will take him and if they dont want him sell him if to the highest bidder. Not to many 50 point players are going to be available. The price for perreault or lowry will be high. Many teams would want them. Simple solution to the problem

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06-08-2017, 01:47 PM
  #99
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In my world Chevy needs to make a deal with LV that insures the Jets keep all of MP, Lowry and Armia. Give them Dano/Copp and a draft pick not in the 1st round. Losing Armia or Lowry makes an already bad pk even worse!

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06-08-2017, 01:49 PM
  #100
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In my world Chevy needs to make a deal with LV that insures the Jets keep all of MP, Lowry and Armia. Give them Dano/Copp and a draft pick not in the 1st round. Losing Armia or Lowry makes an already bad pk even worse!
This is why Enstrom has to go. Why should we give up additional assets, lose a young player that could've been protected over someone Vegas wouldn't even want. [mod]


Last edited by YWGinYYZ: 06-08-2017 at 02:02 PM. Reason: OT
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