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Paperless tickets - the pros, cons

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Old
06-10-2017, 10:44 AM
  #1
LadyStanley
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Paperless tickets - the pros, cons

http://www.sfchronicle.com/business/...s-11186609.php

Quote:
ďThe movement to paperless ticketing makes it difficult, sometimes impossible, to transfer tickets. They are like airline tickets. You buy a ticket in your name, you have to go,Ē said John Kwoka, an economics professor at Northeastern University who studies antitrust issues.
Some states including New York and Virginia have passed laws that require ticket issuers to offer them in a freely transferable format that can be sold on any resale site. The Virginia legislation, which takes effect July 1, was sponsored by Republican state Delegate David Albo after he lost $400 on restricted tickets to an Iron Maiden concert that conflicted with a family vacation.
In 2013, California Assemblyman (now Sen.) Richard Pan, D-Sacramento, introduced a bill that would have made it illegal to issue tickets that could not be easily transferred or sold on any site and to impose maximum or minimum prices on resale tickets. It also would have required the issuer to disclose any service fees in ads for the event. There was an exemption for smaller events.
About 20 event promoters and venues including Live Nation Entertainment (which owns Ticketmaster), the SHN theater group, San Jose Sharks and San Francisco 49ers opposed the bill ó until those provisions were deleted.
The final bill signed into law merely outlaws the sale or use of ticket-buying software, called bots, that can quickly purchase large volumes of tickets online.

And many fans get sucked into restrictions that require credit card to be presented to get the tickets as they are on a time limit to select/purchase tickets during a promotion and don't necessarily have the time to look at the fine print before clicking the final "buy". (So, you may just have to "eat" the hundreds of $$s if you can't attend as it's "impossible" to resell/give-away the tickets.)



Laws seem to be venue/location based, rather than a single/national coverage.




But it does help with limiting fraud and if you don't have restrictions on transfers, makes it easy to sell without any face-to-face meeting.

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06-10-2017, 11:00 AM
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Would love to have a ticket app where all tickets were digitally loaded and secured to your name. If you are unable to attend the event you should be able to trade them back into the vendor for a small penalty, and they may resell the tickets back at cost again.

Cut scalpers and resellers out of the equation fully.

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06-10-2017, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by TOGuy14 View Post
Would love to have a ticket app where all tickets were digitally loaded and secured to your name. If you are unable to attend the event you should be able to trade them back into the vendor for a small penalty, and they may resell the tickets back at cost again.

Cut scalpers and resellers out of the equation fully.
I think you are going in the right direction. The original vendor has to be prohibited from reselling those tickets at inflated prices though or they simply become the scalpers. The penalty would be the sellers service fee, that is ticketmasters fees.

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06-10-2017, 01:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TOGuy14 View Post
Would love to have a ticket app where all tickets were digitally loaded and secured to your name. If you are unable to attend the event you should be able to trade them back into the vendor for a small penalty, and they may resell the tickets back at cost again.

Cut scalpers and resellers out of the equation fully.
I have 4 seats for the rangers. MSG has no interest in allowing me to pick and choose which games I want to go to while taking back the games I don't want. Plus I often meet people at the game so I give them the tickets in advance. Can't do that with paperless tickets. When paperless tickets were legal in NY it was a real hassle to meet people at a show. The promoters argued they were trying to keep the scalpers out but the promoters are the biggest scalpers!

In any event the NHL and other leagues are resellers in their own right so good luck with that.

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06-10-2017, 03:46 PM
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The scalpers have found a way around credit card entry. They purchase tickets using prepaid disposable credit cards and when they sell tickets on stubhub they send the purchaser the credit card. The venues never check ID.

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06-11-2017, 06:56 AM
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06-15-2017, 01:19 PM
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There was outrage in The Jets market when they went paperless...but now it actually makes things allot easier. The vast amount of season tickets are shared within groups of 4 or more people. You can now simply email tickets to other members of the group.
The negatives are: it's just a inkjet printout of your tickets, Christmas and birthdays your present is just a printout not a real ticket..same with important games..no keepsake just a crumpled piece of paper...

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06-15-2017, 05:33 PM
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Vegas is going to be completely paperless; they're only accepting smartphones, credit cards or IDs to enter the arena. No printouts whatsoever. Irks me to no end.

They're doing this for one reason, to control the secondary market. I didn't buy tickets to become a scalper, but it doesn't mean I don't plan to sell a chunk of games. I never intended on attending 44 hockey games.

Had I known this before putting down money for tickets, I wouldn't have signed up. I won't renew if they don't change the policy.

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06-15-2017, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Boris Zubov View Post
Vegas is going to be completely paperless; they're only accepting smartphones, credit cards or IDs to enter the arena. No printouts whatsoever. Irks me to no end.

They're doing this for one reason, to control the secondary market. I didn't buy tickets to become a scalper, but it doesn't mean I don't plan to sell a chunk of games. I never intended on attending 44 hockey games.

Had I known this before putting down money for tickets, I wouldn't have signed up. I won't renew if they don't change the policy.
Language in the agreement commits you to using their secondary ticket sales service as well. It's why I haven't signed mine yet.

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06-15-2017, 05:44 PM
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Language in the agreement commits you to using their secondary ticket sales service as well. It's why I haven't signed mine yet.
How can I opt out?

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06-15-2017, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Boris Zubov View Post
How can I opt out?
You can opt out of the Arbitration by sending them a letter saying you opt out. I don't know if you can do the same with the secondary sales thing. The fact that selling over face without the team's permission is illegal in Clark County adds a little complication to things.

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06-15-2017, 06:00 PM
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Kings started paperless last year but it was only an option as they still did paper tickets; however, you would need to be paperless in order to e-mail a ticket to someone else as they no longer offered the ability to e-mail someone a ticket via the ticket manager site and then have the recipient print out a PDF ticket.

So Flash Seats made it much easier to forward tickets on to other people, but it made reselling on StubHub more difficult. You'd have to go on to Flash Seats website, request to sell seats, pick which seats to sell and then they would send you an e-mail with codes in it to input on the StubHub site. Previously, I just input the bar code number that was printed on my tickets.

So what happens when you request to sell but you don't get the e-mail with the codes? Well, you have to call Flash Seats and the absolute worst customer service you'll ever experience. Plan on waiting 20+ minutes to finally talk to someone and then have that person not understand anything and tell you to call the Kings when the Kings said to call Flash Seats.

What was also great was that if you decided you didn't want to sell on StubHub after saying that you did, you couldn't cancel it within Flash Seats. You still have to list it on StubHub and then delete the listing to free the tickets back up. So there were several instances where I had to go through the motions of a listing, put the price at $1K and then delete it and start the process over.

In summation: screw the paperless tickets. STHer since 2001 and I only forgot my tickets one time and easily went to will call to get reprints. It was also great to get that big ticket booklet with the fancy tickets in it...part of the STH experience. Now you get jack ****.

Crushing blow to those that save their stubs.

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06-15-2017, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by BigKing View Post
Kings started paperless last year but it was only an option as they still did paper tickets; however, you would need to be paperless in order to e-mail a ticket to someone else as they no longer offered the ability to e-mail someone a ticket via the ticket manager site and then have the recipient print out a PDF ticket.

So Flash Seats made it much easier to forward tickets on to other people, but it made reselling on StubHub more difficult. You'd have to go on to Flash Seats website, request to sell seats, pick which seats to sell and then they would send you an e-mail with codes in it to input on the StubHub site. Previously, I just input the bar code number that was printed on my tickets.

So what happens when you request to sell but you don't get the e-mail with the codes? Well, you have to call Flash Seats and the absolute worst customer service you'll ever experience. Plan on waiting 20+ minutes to finally talk to someone and then have that person not understand anything and tell you to call the Kings when the Kings said to call Flash Seats.

What was also great was that if you decided you didn't want to sell on StubHub after saying that you did, you couldn't cancel it within Flash Seats. You still have to list it on StubHub and then delete the listing to free the tickets back up. So there were several instances where I had to go through the motions of a listing, put the price at $1K and then delete it and start the process over.

In summation: screw the paperless tickets. STHer since 2001 and I only forgot my tickets one time and easily went to will call to get reprints. It was also great to get that big ticket booklet with the fancy tickets in it...part of the STH experience. Now you get jack ****.

Crushing blow to those that save their stubs.
Thanks for posting this, it's very good info for us Vegas subscribers since the team also chose to use Flash Seats. I've read not so great things about FlashSeats on the web. None of this inspires much confidence in me. Like I said, I'm gone if they don't change the policy to have the option of printing tickets. Not that I expect it to change.

I'm curious, can you post your tickets on any site or are you limited to StubHub?

Great point regarding the ticket booklets & stubs. This is the teams' inaugural year, it's absurd they aren't printing tickets to commemorate the season.

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06-15-2017, 07:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Boris Zubov View Post
Thanks for posting this, it's very good info for us Vegas subscribers since the team also chose to use Flash Seats. I've read not so great things about FlashSeats on the web. None of this inspires much confidence in me. Like I said, I'm gone if they don't change the policy to have the option of printing tickets. Not that I expect it to change.

I'm curious, can you post your tickets on any site or are you limited to StubHub?

Great point regarding the ticket booklets & stubs. This is the teams' inaugural year, it's absurd they aren't printing tickets to commemorate the season.
I believe Flash Seats is owned by AXS which is AEG, hence why Vegas is going with it since T-Mobile Arena is AEG. If you've experienced AXS v. Ticketmaster, you'll know that TM is a much smoother enterprise.

Anyways, I typed a ridiculous live e-mail to my ticket rep while I was with the Flash Seats people on the phone, but mostly on hold. I finally hit send after 40 minutes and my rep called me and told me that, from now on, to just call her and they would be able to give me my StubHub codes in the event my e-mail for some reason got lost in the ether. At the start of the season, the Kings told me to call Flash Seats. They apparently got so many complaints about them that the Kings reps now have the ability to fix this issue. I let her know that since they essentially forced us to use Flash, Flash Seats is the LA Kings to me and their horrible service is the Kings horrible service. As an aside, this was the 3rd or 4th time this had happened and the 2nd 25+ minute phone call with no resolution. The other two times, the e-mail finally came while I was on hold.

I'd expect it to be better next season as the Kings reassess how it went. Everyone will be on Flash this year unless they want to pitch an extra $100 to get paper tickets. Even then, I think they are generic paper tickets and good luck forwarding. Since basically everyone will be using it, I hope this issue is worked out.

The Kings have a partnership with StubHub or, to be more to the point, AXS/AEG have a partnership with them. I don't believe you can use any other site except for Flash Seats. The Flash website does have the option to sell tickets on Flash. I never used that but it would make sense if it worked like TM Exchange where you list the ticket via Flash Seats and they dump it into the available seats for said game via AXS. Essentially, your ticket would be visible to anyone going direct to the venue which, for the Kings, is AXS and not TM. Not sure if that's how it works but I imagine it would since nobody in the world is going to go to Flash Seats website to find resale tickets. Regardless, posting on another site would necessitate that site allowing you to sell and then somehow get the ticket to the buyer. I say this because to "e-mail" tickets to someone else, they have to have a Flash Seats account. You don't actually e-mail: you transfer from your Flash to the other person's Flash account. You can take it from there with the logistical problems a SeatGeek or what have you would go through. I'm sure there is a way, just not sure if it is in place yet. Like, guy buys your ticket, SeatGeek holds a Flash account or possibly numerous accounts based on team/sport/etc..., SG informs you of the sale and the Flash account of theirs to send it to, they send it to the buyer and then give you your money?

It is easier to share tickets though since nobody has to print out a PDF. When you get an account, you link a CC to it as well, meaning you can forget your phone but still access the arena via scanning your CC on file. Outside of that, I'd prefer to have the paper tickets. I mean, you pay for season seats and a big part of that was getting your book of seats. Never got old from 21 years old to last year at 36 to open up the tickets in late August/early September and be excited about all of the games ahead.

All about money though. Teams will save big time on not having to put those booklets together and it makes it more difficult to sell on the secondary market.

Best part is that it isn't paperless. You walk up to the ticket taker and they have their scanner. They scan the bar code on your smart phone or run your CC through the machine. Then the machine, I **** you not, prints out these little garbage tickets for you on receipt-type paper because you still might need to show an usher where you are sitting. I used to just have my tickets out, scanned, and I was in the building. Now I have to screw around with my phone or get my CC out, then I have to wait for the 3-4 tickets on my account to print and then I get to go in.

Progress haha. Just like with the chips and credit cards. You still don't check my ID when I use the credit card, yet now I have to insert the card for the chip and it takes longer than before. If Joe Blow stole my CC and just uses the chip instead of scanning and you don't check his ID, how am I being protected?

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06-15-2017, 07:46 PM
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Just for fun, here is the live e-mail I sent to my rep while dealing with Flash on the phone. Full disclosure: my rep is awesome and she called me ASAP after receiving the e-mail and fixed it for me. I told her to share this one with the office and have a few laughs at my exasperation.

-----

Once again, Flash Seats has failed to send me my e-mail to list tickets on StubHub. For the 3rd time now, I have to call them to get this fixed. Iím currently at 25 minutes and counting on hold without talking to someone. Was supposed to leave here at 4PM but have to handle this before leaving. Once I get through to someone, Iím sure they will be unprofessional and rude like the first two customer ďserviceĒ associates Iíve spoken to.

I ask why I donít get the e-mail. They say it shows that it sent and they donít know why. So there is no fix to this? More of an issue though is how/why does it take over 20 minutes just to get a human being to speak to? Either they are severely understaffed or the application is such garbage that they are overwhelmed with calls.

This move to Flash Seats has been a disaster. Iím now at 28 minutes and counting. Spent over an hour of my life on hold just so I can list my seats when I used to be able to list at my free will without having to rely on a garbage product that obviously doesnít work properly as it should.

Got through after 30 minutes. Put back on hold without being asked if it was okay. Now Iím 34 minutes in and back on hold and 20 minutes late leaving the office when I was supposed to.

I canít stress enough how poor this is. She just asked me when I bought the tickets because ďI have a lot of ordersĒ. Unbelievable. I told her I have 43 orders of 8 seats. Section 306. ďOh I found it!Ē she says.

GTFO!!! I found it. Unbelievable is the wrong statement because it is entirely believable at this point with Flash Seats. Iím also back on hold. Now sheís back. She is so, so helpless I canít even begin to describe the incompetence. I now know the answer to why it takes so long to get through to someone: the people that work there are not trained properly and are extremely slow on the upkeep.

Now Iím back on hold. Says she has to go through each of my listings to find the right game. So it isnít just listed by game like it is on my website? So either sheís stupid or their system is ridiculous. Leaning towards both here.

Nothing in my 15 years as a season seat holder has infuriated me as much as having to deal with Flash Seats this season. Iím now 30 minutes late and 43 minutes in to this phone call. 43 MINUTES!!! I used to have a paper ticket with a barcode on it. Input and done. Now I have to hope and pray I get my e-mail with the barcode or else Iím in Muzak hell for who knows how long.

Please run this up the flagpole and help make changes to this horrific service. Itís an embarrassment for the Kings to be associated with this pathetic customer service. Since the Kings are forcing us to use this pretty much, it reflects on the Kings extremely poorly as they appear to be your partner. Their horrible customer service is the Kings horrible customer service as far as Iím concerned a this point.

46 minutesÖ.STILL ON HOLD!!!

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06-15-2017, 08:27 PM
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Paperless tickets are fine if they still send out hard tickets or allow you to print them off. If paperless tickets are your only option it's not consumer friendly. Teams want data and they can track that with paperless tickets if they see you're selling a lot games they'll yank your tickets without regard for your situation. You don't have to be a broker to lose your seats. If you don't believe me just google some stories over the past few years. The Tampa Bay Lightning yanked Stanley Cup tickets away from an Army Captain who was deployed for training and sold too many games. The Denver Broncos revoked season tickets for a family who's mother was diagnosed with cancer and couldn't attend games. After sending a letter asking for reconsideration based on the circumstances the Broncos stood firm with their decision!!!!! Teams claim tickets are "revocable licensees" but it's really never been challenged in court for the validity of that claim. If it's revocable why can't the consumer revoke it and get their money back? My point is if you buy it, it's your right to do whatever you want with it. Regular fans don't understand how curbing scalping is not good for them only helps create a monopoly for the team which is what they want.

When talking to the average Joe.....

Buy and resell a car? Good for you!
Flip a house? Wow, you're really smart!
Resell tickets? HOW DARE YOU! GET A REAL JOB YOU SCUM!!!!!

I know I went on a tangent on that last part but I don't get the hate on legitimate businesses reselling tickets. They pay taxes when they sell commodities which tickets are, fans don't.

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06-15-2017, 08:58 PM
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Originally Posted by SETHROLLINS View Post
When talking to the average Joe.....

Buy and resell a car? Good for you!
Flip a house? Wow, you're really smart!
Resell tickets? HOW DARE YOU! GET A REAL JOB YOU SCUM!!!!!
+1 . Love this comparison.

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06-16-2017, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Boris Zubov View Post
Vegas is going to be completely paperless; they're only accepting smartphones, credit cards or IDs to enter the arena. No printouts whatsoever. Irks me to no end.

They're doing this for one reason, to control the secondary market. I didn't buy tickets to become a scalper, but it doesn't mean I don't plan to sell a chunk of games. I never intended on attending 44 hockey games.

Had I known this before putting down money for tickets, I wouldn't have signed up. I won't renew if they don't change the policy.
This is what it is all about. It has NOTHING to do with keeping scalpers out. They want to get their commission AND have access to resale prices so they can justify raising prices each year.

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06-16-2017, 07:53 AM
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Originally Posted by SETHROLLINS View Post
Paperless tickets are fine if they still send out hard tickets or allow you to print them off. If paperless tickets are your only option it's not consumer friendly. Teams want data and they can track that with paperless tickets if they see you're selling a lot games they'll yank your tickets without regard for your situation. You don't have to be a broker to lose your seats. If you don't believe me just google some stories over the past few years. The Tampa Bay Lightning yanked Stanley Cup tickets away from an Army Captain who was deployed for training and sold too many games. The Denver Broncos revoked season tickets for a family who's mother was diagnosed with cancer and couldn't attend games. After sending a letter asking for reconsideration based on the circumstances the Broncos stood firm with their decision!!!!! Teams claim tickets are "revocable licensees" but it's really never been challenged in court for the validity of that claim. If it's revocable why can't the consumer revoke it and get their money back? My point is if you buy it, it's your right to do whatever you want with it. Regular fans don't understand how curbing scalping is not good for them only helps create a monopoly for the team which is what they want.

When talking to the average Joe.....

Buy and resell a car? Good for you!
Flip a house? Wow, you're really smart!
Resell tickets? HOW DARE YOU! GET A REAL JOB YOU SCUM!!!!!


I know I went on a tangent on that last part but I don't get the hate on legitimate businesses reselling tickets. They pay taxes when they sell commodities which tickets are, fans don't.
You just not only hit the nail on the head, you smashed it through the stud in one strike.

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06-19-2017, 02:29 PM
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The fact that the mainstream ticket industry has been able to convince people to inconvenience themselves due to the 'threat' of scalpers, when in fact the mainstream ticket industry itself is the biggest scalper by about 100 times over, is honestly pretty impressive.

Specifically to paperless tickets, some teams have gone solely to mobile ticketing which IMO is the way of the future. I had Cubs tickets on my phone for a game this year that got rained out and was able to just trade them back to the team for face less service fees (admittedly if I could have got more than face for the makeup date I would have 100% listed them on Stubhub instead).

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06-19-2017, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by SETHROLLINS View Post
Paperless tickets are fine if they still send out hard tickets or allow you to print them off. If paperless tickets are your only option it's not consumer friendly. Teams want data and they can track that with paperless tickets if they see you're selling a lot games they'll yank your tickets without regard for your situation. You don't have to be a broker to lose your seats. If you don't believe me just google some stories over the past few years. The Tampa Bay Lightning yanked Stanley Cup tickets away from an Army Captain who was deployed for training and sold too many games. The Denver Broncos revoked season tickets for a family who's mother was diagnosed with cancer and couldn't attend games. After sending a letter asking for reconsideration based on the circumstances the Broncos stood firm with their decision!!!!! Teams claim tickets are "revocable licensees" but it's really never been challenged in court for the validity of that claim. If it's revocable why can't the consumer revoke it and get their money back? My point is if you buy it, it's your right to do whatever you want with it. Regular fans don't understand how curbing scalping is not good for them only helps create a monopoly for the team which is what they want.

When talking to the average Joe.....

Buy and resell a car? Good for you!
Flip a house? Wow, you're really smart!
Resell tickets? HOW DARE YOU! GET A REAL JOB YOU SCUM!!!!!

I know I went on a tangent on that last part but I don't get the hate on legitimate businesses reselling tickets. They pay taxes when they sell commodities which tickets are, fans don't.
Except that sports re not viewed the same as those commodities. Whenever a sports team or player or league does something that negatively affects fans it is called a business decisions, when fans stay away from game they are called terrible fans and blamed for the woes of the club.

On top of that often these days sports franchises are being subsidized by governments.

If you are going to go down that path that sports is just like any other business endeavor then don't be surprised when fans don't buy tickets to watch ****** teams.

As an oiler fan , on pure value the team deserved to have about 5,000 fans a game over the last decade before mcdavid came long because the product was losing, boring garbage and the team was run by a bunch of arrogant morons. And yet, the arena was full.

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06-19-2017, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SETHROLLINS View Post
Paperless tickets are fine if they still send out hard tickets or allow you to print them off. If paperless tickets are your only option it's not consumer friendly. Teams want data and they can track that with paperless tickets if they see you're selling a lot games they'll yank your tickets without regard for your situation. You don't have to be a broker to lose your seats. If you don't believe me just google some stories over the past few years. The Tampa Bay Lightning yanked Stanley Cup tickets away from an Army Captain who was deployed for training and sold too many games. The Denver Broncos revoked season tickets for a family who's mother was diagnosed with cancer and couldn't attend games. After sending a letter asking for reconsideration based on the circumstances the Broncos stood firm with their decision!!!!! Teams claim tickets are "revocable licensees" but it's really never been challenged in court for the validity of that claim. If it's revocable why can't the consumer revoke it and get their money back? My point is if you buy it, it's your right to do whatever you want with it. Regular fans don't understand how curbing scalping is not good for them only helps create a monopoly for the team which is what they want.

When talking to the average Joe.....

Buy and resell a car? Good for you!
Flip a house? Wow, you're really smart!
Resell tickets? HOW DARE YOU! GET A REAL JOB YOU SCUM!!!!!

I know I went on a tangent on that last part but I don't get the hate on legitimate businesses reselling tickets. They pay taxes when they sell commodities which tickets are, fans don't.
I agree it's terrible customer service and I hate electronic tickets.

That said, there are significant differences in property ownership between tickets, a car, and a house. Depending on the finances of the situation, it's possible to outright own a car or a house. Even if you're leasing, the property rights you get along with those things are much greater than what you have with tickets. When you buy tickets, you don't actually own the tickets. Instead, you are purchasing a license to be on the premises and spectate the game. This license is completely revocable at the licensor's discretion and subject to many rules and regulations

The (ancient) common law case for this comes from Wood v. Leadbitter which is an English case from 1845. In it, the plaintiff purchased tickets to watch a horse race. Before the race, however, he was forceably removed from the stadium. He didn't get a refund. He sued for excessive force and false imprisonment. He lost. The court said his best bet would have been to try for a breach of contract, but ultimately a ticket is a license which may be revoked at the discretion of the licensor with little recourse for the ticket holder.

The summary is to know who you're buying tickets from and speak with your wallet. If you don't like how you (or other ticket holders are being treated), the only real recourse is to not buy tickets in the future.

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