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The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, NHL revenues, relocation and expansion.

Phoenix CXXVIII: The Grass is Always Greener On The Other Side Of The I-17

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Old
06-12-2017, 07:39 PM
  #51
MNNumbers
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Originally Posted by BattleBorn View Post
Has the Coyotes effort in the state assembly and the Diamondbacks efforts to do whatever they're trying to do with BOB in addition to the ever present anti-public funding crowd done anything to change the chances of the Suns getting any money for their new place?

If that whole thing is done and someone comes with a team/tenant and $100MM (Coyotes) is there any reason to assume it couldn't end with a shared arena? We know that the Suns kind of have the love of the Phoenix city government, but can Phoenix actually come through with a decent amount of assistance at this point or are the Suns going to have the go fully private if they make a move in the next few years?
Battle,

How does your question change if Sarver doesn't HAVE to do anything for 4 more years? What's the likelihood of the Coyotes sitting on their hands that long....?

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06-12-2017, 07:40 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Llama19 View Post
So...you are saying that in 2013 the NHL was the 80% owner...now, with Barroway, it is 100% owned by the MGG...seems logical...possibly the NHL is still first in line, even after this buyout...franchise is now 100% portable...

However, with no means of financial support...do not see how Barroway stays in the Valley under any conditions/scenarios...
... no Llama, I said IA's purchase was app 80% financed, and financed by FIG. IA purportedly put down (variously, moving target) $35M-$40M-$50M on a $170M "sale". The NHL lending them $85M interest free on top of that to carry them through the 1st 2yrs.... and no, nor do I see Barroway sticking around, this a flip-job, of that Im convinced.

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06-12-2017, 07:44 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
... no Llama, I said IA's purchase was app 80% financed, and financed by FIG. IA purportedly put down (variously, moving target) $35M-$40M-$50M on a $170M "sale". The NHL lending them $85M interest free on top of that to carry them through the 1st 2yrs.... and no, nor do I see Barroway sticking around, this a flip-job, of that Im convinced.
80% financed...yes...agreed...still the NHL held the lions share vis-a-vis the LOC hanging over the franchise...

Also convinced not seeing Barroway sticking around, either...

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06-12-2017, 07:45 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by MNNumbers View Post
Battle,

How does your question change if Sarver doesn't HAVE to do anything for 4 more years? What's the likelihood of the Coyotes sitting on their hands that long....?
I don't know. With every day that goes by, I'm starting to think the Coyotes situation isn't nearly as dire as we've figured. I'm trying to take an outsiders view and ignore the other stuff.

Over a year ago, I took the figures we all kind of agreed on and used them to figure a break even for NHL owners if they'd have moved the Coyotes to Las Vegas. Depending on how dire you think the situation is, the breakeven was anywhere from 3-8 years. Instead, the owners took the expansion payday, which made me think the Coyotes aren't in the situation we all thought they were.

I guess what I'm saying is, while everything we're saying here makes sense in one way or another, the fact that this is still going on leads me to think that maybe we're a little off on our figures.

Didn't move, didn't freak out over the lease too much, moved the AHL team close to home, didn't make a huge deal when the arena deal failed, then the majority owner bought everyone else out. It doesn't seem like things you do if your balance sheet looks like it's on fire from all the red ink.

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06-12-2017, 07:50 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by BattleBorn View Post
Didn't move, didn't freak out over the lease too much, moved the AHL team close to home, didn't make a huge deal when the arena deal failed, then the majority owner bought everyone else out. It doesn't seem like things you do if your balance sheet looks like it's on fire from all the red ink.
Wow. So you think these guys have faked us & everybody else out BB?

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06-12-2017, 07:58 PM
  #56
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Just a question of cost in terms of total dollars. Is one cheaper than the other by any amount. If it's even a little cheaper to renovate the existing, I could see more buy-in from politicians and tax payers. Especially if it's for both teams, rather than one. It's not a good time to be asking for tax money to build two (or even just one) new arena anywhere, let alone these locations that are kind of on the outskirts (even though not nearly as outskirty as Glendale). If feel like even if it isn't exactly "cost effective" to renovate and makes more logical sense to do a new build, you might have a better shot of securing more public financing if you keep them in the same building the voters already paid for once, and you get both teams in there, and you promise to shut up about sports arenas for another decade or two.
I don't know if Phoenix has articulated this, but they seem to have four options. They have asked for a renovated facility and a new facility. We don't know if the renovated facility will be built to accommodate Coyotes or not. The estimates are due back sometime this summer, IIRC.

1. Status Quo. No renovations, no major changes and dare Sarver to check out Salt River or another city entirely.

2. Renovate as basketball only facility. Modernize facility for Suns only.

3. Renovate and increase size of facility to accommodate hockey. Like option 2, but more expensive.

4. Completely new arena.

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06-12-2017, 07:59 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by BattleBorn View Post
Has the Coyotes effort in the state assembly and the Diamondbacks efforts to do whatever they're trying to do with BOB in addition to the ever present anti-public funding crowd done anything to change the chances of the Suns getting any money for their new place?

If that whole thing is done and someone comes with a team/tenant and $100MM (Coyotes) is there any reason to assume it couldn't end with a shared arena? We know that the Suns kind of have the love of the Phoenix city government, but can Phoenix actually come through with a decent amount of assistance at this point or are the Suns going to have the go fully private if they make a move in the next few years?
I said awhile back that it was, in my opinion, a dry rehearsal for Sarver. Just had that vibe. That's just me though

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06-12-2017, 08:00 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Wow. So you think these guys have faked us & everybody else out BB?
I think a lot of us spend a lot of time here and there has to be something to talk about. I don't know that they've faked us out or if we've just built a bubble around us where there's no positivity and we just keep feeding it.

Or we could be right and I'm 100% wrong. Like I said, I'm just trying to take an outsider view. I'm completely happy that we've got a new expansion team here in Las Vegas, I just don't know why we do if the fire in Glendale is burning the way we think it is. They're literally on a year to year lease at GRA, which is insane. If they're blowing through league-guaranteed money like we think they are, everyone involved would have been made completely whole and the entire cloud would have been lifted if they packed up some UHauls and moved the dogs up the highway to Las Vegas last year.

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06-12-2017, 08:00 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Wow. So you think these guys have faked us & everybody else out BB?
A little rope-a-dope? I wouldn't put it past this saga at this point for barroway to whip out a slam dunk of a funded arena in downtown Phoenix with a staggering 16 thousand season ticket base with 25 year iron clad lease and a shout-out "how do like them apples boh boards?! I float like a butterfly and sting like a bee!"


Not saying it will happen, just saying it wouldn't surprise me....

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06-12-2017, 08:08 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by BattleBorn View Post
I think a lot of us spend a lot of time here and there has to be something to talk about. I don't know that they've faked us out or if we've just built a bubble around us where there's no positivity and we just keep feeding it.

Or we could be right and I'm 100% wrong. Like I said, I'm just trying to take an outsider view. I'm completely happy that we've got a new expansion team here in Las Vegas, I just don't know why we do if the fire in Glendale is burning the way we think it is. They're literally on a year to year lease at GRA, which is insane. If they're blowing through league-guaranteed money like we think they are, everyone involved would have been made completely whole and the entire cloud would have been lifted if they packed up some UHauls and moved the dogs up the highway to Las Vegas last year.
I can think of 500 million reasons why.

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06-12-2017, 08:09 PM
  #61
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While I appreciate BattleBorn,

In this case I have heard enough comments (Leblanc and his 'staggering losses', etc), and had enough PM's from people with 'some' information (not that I completely trust the info, mind you), to be reasonably sure that our calculations of losses are in the right ballpark (but the hockey rink is in the wrong place).

I think the answers to BB's questions are quite simple....

Foley didn't want the Yotes, and since he was paying 500M, and it will be NOW, or never, he got what he wanted.

NHL doesn't have a good place in the West to relocate the Yotes to.

There is still hope of an arena, although said arena will need to come with a management subsidy. (They just haven't said that yet.) They would rather hold out that hope yet, than to move to Quebec City.

And, NHL isn't holding the losses. I am sure the LeBlanc, etc came out with far less than they went in with.

And, the same might be true for Barroway.

Glendale's AMF? They were very hot about that - making public comments about what the courts would do. Backing up LeBlanc (got thrown out of our own arena - as if they owned it....). And, vowing to never play in Glendale as 'punishment.'


All of that is clearly my 'take', however, and could be wrong...

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06-12-2017, 08:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom ServoMST3K View Post
I can think of 500 million reasons why.
$16.66MM per isn't much compared to whatever we figure the outstanding monies are if the league "owns" the team, owns/guarantees the debt, and they're losing $20MM/year (or $666,666 per owner in league guaranteed money,) and have to figure out how to build an arena since it doesn't "work" in Glendale.

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06-12-2017, 08:17 PM
  #63
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A little legwork on MGG....

McCourt Global put up the money which began MGG...

Frank McCourt...yes, that Frank McCourt.

"Mr. Frank H. McCourt, Jr., serves as the Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of McCourt Global. Mr. McCourt is the Owner of French football club Olympique de Marseille and former Owner of Los Angeles Dodgers, Inc. He purchased the Los Angeles Dodgers in 2004 and guided the organization through several important initiatives, including the renovation of Dodger Stadium and the development of a new spring training facility at Camelback Ranch in Arizona. In 2013, Mr. McCourt acquired a 50% interest in the Global Champions Tour. He also acquired the operating rights to the Los Angeles Marathon in 2008 and led the turnaround of the organization, creating the signature Stadium to the Sea course. Mr. McCourt serves on the Board of Directors of The Shed and served on the board of Georgetown University for many years. He has career spanning over 35 years. Mr. McCourt graduated from Georgetown University in 1975."

Source: https://www.bloomberg.com/research/s...apId=245608123

Note that this is the guy who owned the Dodgers (and that didn't go well), and that with the Dodgers, he led the development of CamelBack in Arizona.

How much direct contact he has with MGG, I'm not sure anyone outside of the industry would know, but this is an interesting bio, anyway....

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06-12-2017, 08:34 PM
  #64
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A little rope-a-dope? I wouldn't put it past this saga at this point for barroway to whip out a slam dunk of a funded arena in downtown Phoenix with a staggering 16 thousand season ticket base with 25 year iron clad lease and a shout-out "how do like them apples boh boards?! I float like a butterfly and sting like a bee!"


Not saying it will happen, just saying it wouldn't surprise me....
Now...this could be the ultimate rope-a-dope...
things get so bad in the next few days...
when Barroway's buyout cannot be finalized...
then this franchise is flipped to Vegas...
and the expansion dissolved...
leaving Foley to still pay...
$500,000,000...

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06-12-2017, 08:38 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Llama19 View Post
Now...this could be the ultimate rope-a-dope...
things get so bad in the next few days...
when Barroway's buyout cannot be finalized...
then this franchise is flipped to Vegas...
and the expansion dissolved...
leaving Foley to still pay...
$500,000,000...
Come on, llama....

Don't tease us like that....

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06-12-2017, 08:42 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Llama19 View Post
Now...this could be the ultimate rope-a-dope...
things get so bad in the next few days...
when Barroway's buyout cannot be finalized...
then this franchise is flipped to Vegas...
and the expansion dissolved...
leaving Foley to still pay...
$500,000,000...
Llama, don't you dare put that thought into my head.

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06-12-2017, 08:48 PM
  #67
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Local Power of Channel 3 & 5 news report (with Craig Morgan at the 1:20 time mark)...

Andrew Barroway becomes Coyotes sole Owner

Source (Video - 2:51): http://www.azfamily.com/clip/1340701...tes-sole-owner

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06-12-2017, 08:52 PM
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Originally Posted by MNNumbers View Post
How much direct contact he has with MGG, I'm not sure anyone outside of the industry would know, but this is an interesting bio, anyway....
Yes, yes thats very interesting. He's obviously rather familiar with Glendale ... so, lets connect a few dots here MNN... an arm of McCourt Capital (MCC listed as a stand alone but these operations rarely are) lends Barroway the money to buy out IA & pay-off the NHL... Frank McCourt Jr. owns the French Ligue 1 Olympique de Marseille FC.... Daryl Jones cryptically tweeting this morning that he's "off to the south of France for a month", ta ta..... thats just a few too many.... "coincidences" mais oui? I wonder what else we might find if we dig a little deeper. Follow the money. Always follow the money.


Last edited by Killion: 06-12-2017 at 08:57 PM.
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06-12-2017, 08:58 PM
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Originally Posted by MNNumbers View Post
Come on, llama....

Don't tease us like that....
Who is teasing...it is plausible...

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Originally Posted by Tom ServoMST3K View Post
Llama, don't you dare put that thought into my head.
Too late for that...

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06-12-2017, 09:08 PM
  #70
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I said awhile back that it was, in my opinion, a dry rehearsal for Sarver. Just had that vibe. That's just me though
Ok...Cisco...

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06-12-2017, 09:16 PM
  #71
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Yup, Barroway is the sole owner. All the others are gone. Gosbee, Drummond, Ducket, Dutton, Leblanc are all Gonzo!

Fanstasy NHL owner dreams sunk in a sea of red ink.

Jones is hanging in to the bitter end with his twitter still listing him as a Coyotes owner.

Newly updated
https://www.nhl.com/coyotes/team/staff

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06-12-2017, 09:20 PM
  #72
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Yup, Barroway is the sole owner. All the others are gone. Gosbee, Drummond, Ducket, Dutton, Leblanc are all Gonzo!

Fanstasy NHL owner dreams sunk in a sea of red ink.

Jones is hanging in to the bitter end with his twitter still listing him as a Coyotes owner.

Newly updated
https://www.nhl.com/coyotes/team/staff
Keith McCullough weighs in...

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Old
06-12-2017, 09:25 PM
  #73
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Huh. Purged. Deleted. Gone. That was fast, efficient.

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06-12-2017, 09:27 PM
  #74
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Keith McCullough weighs in...

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06-12-2017, 09:28 PM
  #75
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What is he saying? The media targeted him and the 'yotes ownership unfairly?


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