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Bergeron At The WJC's?

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Old
10-28-2003, 12:52 PM
  #1
Colt.45Orr
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Bergeron At The WJC's?

Putting immediate Bruins loyalty's aside...do you guys (and gals) think Patrice Bergeron should be allowed to represent Canada at the WJC's? Personally I think he should... he would now be a top-line player...maybe even be the Captain (hey he speaks both French and English) I think it would be invaluable experience...

Really what does he miss, 6 games? (I'm guessing here)... missing those games (or a few more) are not going to have a negative impact on his career... he could miss as many -or more- with injury. I believe the WJC's are being hosted in Canada this year as well, the guy would be ALL over the media.

Give Hilbert, Green, Samuelsson, whomever a chance to go wing-man with Axe and Rollie for a few games and let Bergeron take another big step towards becoming a super-star.

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10-28-2003, 01:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colt.45Orr
Putting immediate Bruins loyalty's aside...do you guys (and gals) think Patrice Bergeron should be allowed to represent Canada at the WJC's? Personally I think he should... he would now be a top-line player...maybe even be the Captain (hey he speaks both French and English) I think it would be invaluable experience...

Really what does he miss, 6 games? (I'm guessing here)... missing those games (or a few more) are not going to have a negative impact on his career... he could miss as many -or more- with injury. I believe the WJC's are being hosted in Canada this year as well, the guy would be ALL over the media.

Give Hilbert, Green, Samuelsson, whomever a chance to go wing-man with Axe and Rollie for a few games and let Bergeron take another big step towards becoming a super-star.
He's becoming an integral part of this team. I think it would be a diservice to him and the Bruins.

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10-28-2003, 01:34 PM
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We will have to wait and see, if his play has dropped off considerably, then maybe it would be good for him.

But if he keeps playing like he is, I see no need for it.

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10-28-2003, 02:17 PM
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I say Bergeron stays, unless he somehow hits the wall, and his play really falls back, and thuse you are thinkign about letting hiom go back to juniors. I don't think that will happen.

But even if he were to go to the WJC, where are the garantees that he would be a top line forward and a potential Captain. I'm not sure there are any garantees. As great as Bergeron has been in Boston, there are still a bunch of other guys who had a lot more hype going into the year, who will be on the team

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10-28-2003, 02:21 PM
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He won't be the captain... not even close.

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10-28-2003, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by go pierre hedin
He won't be the captain... not even close.
Okay, if you're going to make this kind of blanket statement on a Bruins' board, you'd better provide either a reason why he's not even close or propose at least one other kid who is gettting it done in the big show like Bergeron is.

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10-28-2003, 02:59 PM
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i think this post should be revisited in a month or so. there's really no reason to discuss bergeron getting shipped to the WJC's when he's been one of our best players all season

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10-28-2003, 04:33 PM
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I am a Canadian and I do not want Bergeron playing at the WJrs. He has proved he is a legit NHL'er and we need him here.
I think Bergeron would rather stay up here anyway.

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10-28-2003, 06:45 PM
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Patrice Bergeron didn't even make the 2003 development camp roster, you can't expect him to step in and take over the role as captain!

Ian White would probably be the captain of the 2004 team if he returns on time from his knee injury. If not, it may be Daniel Paille, another returnee.

NHL status doesn't have anything to do with the captaincy.

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10-29-2003, 03:24 AM
  #10
Jeff from Maine
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I Agree...

I agree that NHL status has little to do with captain choices!

Just because he is in the NHL and putting up a few points means that he would be captain??

What about other guys in the NHL who are in worse situation, yet are playing equally as well as Bergeron, but with fewer points?

- Nathan Horton
- Eric Staal

Those guys are likely better captain material.

Who knows.

I would not, however, be at all averse to him going to the WJC`s. Its a once in a lifetime thing for many kids.

I doubt he would want to go however.

Later

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10-29-2003, 04:46 AM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff from Maine
I agree that NHL status has little to do with captain choices!

Just because he is in the NHL and putting up a few points means that he would be captain??

What about other guys in the NHL who are in worse situation, yet are playing equally as well as Bergeron, but with fewer points?

- Nathan Horton
- Eric Staal

Those guys are likely better captain material.

Who knows.

I would not, however, be at all averse to him going to the WJC`s. Its a once in a lifetime thing for many kids.

I doubt he would want to go however.

Later
Jeff, this comment borders on ridiculous. What in the world makes you think these two are playin as well than Bergeron? How many Florida and Carolina games have you taken in? Before Staal had that game against the Bruins people were saying how slow he started...and now after a goal against the Bruins and he is playing as good as Bergeron? No way. I know you have a tendancy to be cautiously optimistic, but Bergeron is clearly the class of rookie skaters so far.

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10-29-2003, 05:13 AM
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i don't see a problem with letting him go, if he even wants to. Sure WJC are a once in a lifetime thing, but even for WJC players, the NHL is still their career goal. PB is living his dream right now i am sure. Why wake him up and DELEGATE him to a lower level if he is producing at the highest level, and doesnt really want to go. IF he had been the the canadian WJC development program for the past year or so, then maybe his loyalties might lye there somewhat, but other thatn that, i dont see a need for him on a persaonl basis to fulfill anything by going to WJC. I bet he even has a bit of a chip on his shoulder about it, sort of like "heh, they didnt want me then, why should i go now?" sort of deal.

all that said, i would HATE to see him or anyplayer that is NHL calibre and playing now go play and get injured and miss crucial NHL development at such a fragile age. getting hurt in the NHL is one thing, but missing time from an outside the NHL tourney is another.

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10-29-2003, 05:47 AM
  #13
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Yes he should go. Think about the long term benefits of playing for Canada in this country's second highest international spotlight. The oppurtunity and benefits far outway the few games he would help the Bruins over those 3-4 weeks. And maybe the kid would relish playing for Canada. The time away may even help away from the long grind of the NHL season.I don't know if he's ever done it before as an under 17 or whatever, but maybe it something that would be very improtant to him. It's a once in a lifetime chance and he should be allowed to enjoy it, if he so desires.

And I believe Pierre's correct, historically veterans are named Captain of Canada's team. Stuart and Bergeron as leaders of the two teams would be sweet though

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10-29-2003, 05:52 AM
  #14
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Your Blinded Bruwinz

Bruwins, I love ya, but your Black and Gold bias shows CLEAR here!

The player who may be the BEST of ths rookie crop is actually in Nashville!

Mr. Zidlicky has been DOMINANT so far.

Bergeron hasnt been dominant by any stretch. He has played solid fundamental hockey and has converted on the chances he gets.

Zidlicky has been a 2 way force in Nashville.

I dont see why you guys want to make everything with Bergeron such a competition.

Is this to justify your pro-management stance onm how great the Bruin Draft Machine is??

Ya know..it IS OKAY to admit that other rookies are EASILY as good as Bergeron is!

Its NOT a slap at Patrice!

BTW...its not nearly as rare a thing as you all want it to seem...this rookie thing with Bergeron.

This year there are more 1st year players in the NHL than in any other year in the history of this game!

Its called CBA prep.

Later

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10-29-2003, 05:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff from Maine
Bruwins, I love ya, but your Black and Gold bias shows CLEAR here!

The player who may be the BEST of ths rookie crop is actually in Nashville!

Mr. Zidlicky has been DOMINANT so far.

Bergeron hasnt been dominant by any stretch. He has played solid fundamental hockey and has converted on the chances he gets.

Zidlicky has been a 2 way force in Nashville.

I dont see why you guys want to make everything with Bergeron such a competition.

Is this to justify your pro-management stance onm how great the Bruin Draft Machine is??

Ya know..it IS OKAY to admit that other rookies are EASILY as good as Bergeron is!

Its NOT a slap at Patrice!

BTW...its not nearly as rare a thing as you all want it to seem...this rookie thing with Bergeron.

This year there are more 1st year players in the NHL than in any other year in the history of this game!

Its called CBA prep.

Later
Is this your 9 paragraph, 9 sentance way of telling me you are not going to respond whatsoever to my post? Why is Staal *easily* as good as Patrice? Because he was drafted higher? Heck, that must mean Alexandre Daigle is EASILY as good as anyone in his draft year.

And yes, it is a very rare thing to see 2nd rounders play as 18 year olds in the NHL. Now please answer my original question...how many Florida, Carolina, and now Nashville games have you actually seen to know that these players are *easily* as good as Bergeron.

I will be waiting.

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10-29-2003, 06:02 AM
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And by the way Jeff...you do know that Zidlicky is 26, right?

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10-29-2003, 08:14 AM
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Glad You Asked

Very glad you asked Bruwinz.

And FWIW, here is the EXACT number of times I have watched rookies, to the best of my knowledge.

* Florida (2) Horton
* Carolina (2) Staal
* Anaheim (2) Lupol
* Nashville (1) Zidlicky
* Philly (3) Pitkanen
* Chicago (2) McLean

And every Bruin game.

And to tell you the truth, now that I think about it more...Joni Pitkanen is without question the best one I have seen so far. And Brett McLean would be the 2nd best, from what I have seen.

I`ll put Bergeron up with Staal, just ahead of Horton.

I am fully aware of Zidlicky and his age...I am talking about rookies. ut since you feel like narrowing my sample size, I willingly oblige.

I put Bergeron were I do in large part because he isnt forced into a top role on his team. Lets face it (which is another way of saying...take off the Black and Gold blinders) he is a THIRD line forward whose line is seldom on the ice against top defensive check lines and d- units. And he has had his responsibilities totally pared down defensively as Sully uses him on the wing and his task is generally to cover the weakside passing lane (which BTW, as you are fully aware, means that to complete a pass to his area requires that you take a nap as its generally a LONG cross ice pass!)

Pitkanen has been placed on the top Philly d-pairring, and at times has played 2nd pairring as well. I have only watched him twice, but friends of mine whose opinions I have FULL faith in, tell me that he has been awesome defensively, as well as offensively. he has the full 2 way responsibility of a top d-man. NOTHING has been removed from him as far as responsibilities are concerned.

And Brett McLean...again, a crap team and has played a big role on it. He has completely outplayed his more well known teammate (Ruttu) and his a very solid 2 way forward.

Horton, IMHO, is going to be the best forward of this bunch. he plays the COMPLETE game! he is a hitter, a scorer (although he has been given a Thorntonesque rookie role as a physical player on the 3rd/4th lines).

I dont understand why you rip at me for my views on Bergeron. I have ALWAYS said that he is a solid player. Fundamentally he may be the best rookie out there. but skillwise, I see him lagging behind MANY...including Zinovjev!

He is a guy who is in the right place at the right time offensively. Sure, you have to put yourself in those positions, and his hockey sense gets him there. But as far as RESPONSIBILITIES that he has been given...its pretty obvious to me that Sully has sheltered him. His low ice minutes, conversion to 3rd line wing tells me this. He gets 2nd unit PP time, which is AWESOME!

I certainly like Bergeron A LOT! But I will not just annoint him as the best rookie because he is a Bruin and is the leading rookie scorer! There is MUCH more to it than just that!

A guy like Staal has been told, "Look buddy, for us to have any success, you MUST be a key contributor to this tam. We HAVE to get production out of you!"

IMHO, the Bruins could easily survive a big drop in production from Bergeron. Zino, and others could pick up the slack.

Should Staal, McLean and Pitkanen experience a big drop in numbers/production, there teams will have a MUCH more difficult time replacing them!

Replacing one of your top d-men is usually MUCH more difficult than a 3rd line forward!

And as always, this is all just my OPINION....which again, seems to be irrelavant in matters with you.

I am starting to think that maybe I should go back to how I used to post....abrasive and challenging everyone. Seems thats the way you want it!

BTW...how many games have you watched?

Later

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10-29-2003, 08:36 AM
  #18
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Yes Jeff....I do want you to go back to the old way...I like the aggressive, ready to drop the gloves Jeff. lol

Anyway, I have seen probably 2 Panthers and 3 Hurricanes games. Havent really watched Nashville besides clicking around, no Chicago games because frankly they are boring, and a couple Philly games...and yes I like Pitkanen too.

Staal has not been asked to lead the Canes however. I dont think any of the rookies (besides Pitkanen maybe) has the fate of the franchise on their shoulders.

I just think it is funny that you can watch two games of a guy who is averaging 12-13 mins a game and say he is as good as Bergeron who you have watched 8-9 times! I must ask why arent you a professional scout? Results, goals, assists be damned...it doesnt matter because Nathan Horton and Patrice Bergeron are just as good no matter what they do on the ice. That *is* basically what you are telling me.

Regarding Brent McClean.....are you kidding me? The guy has had 7 good games. I am not taking away from him, but he is 25 years old!!! Are you just throwing names out there? How can you bring him into this conversation?

Lastly I think you overlook a lot of Patrice Bergeron's skills too....or at least dont give them enough credit. Yes, he has great hockey sense, but he is also a wonderful passer, good skater, exceptional defensive player and can play in EVERY situation.

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10-29-2003, 08:38 AM
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jeff sez:
He is a guy who is in the right place at the right time offensively. Sure, you have to put yourself in those positions, and his hockey sense gets him there. But as far as RESPONSIBILITIES that he has been given...its pretty obvious to me that Sully has sheltered him. His low ice minutes, conversion to 3rd line wing tells me this. He gets 2nd unit PP time, which is AWESOME!
--------------------------------------------

Are you kidding me? This guy is killing penalties late in games! He has averaged more ice time than both Staal and Horton. I am not sure where you are coming up with this.

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10-29-2003, 08:43 AM
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10-29-2003, 09:15 AM
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I can only go by what I see with Bergeron and haven't seen any of many of the rookies. I can see Bergeron grabbing 20 goals and 60 points. He's not electric so its hard to say- geez, this can is going to be a star. He's not big like a young Shanahan, Bertuzzi, or Thornton where you just figure it may take time. What he is is a hockey player- not an athlete playing hockey.

I'd even go out and say I wouldn't trade he and Jillson for Komisarik and Higgins even after rereading my Hockey News prospects list

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10-29-2003, 09:46 AM
  #22
Jeff from Maine
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Semantics

A lot of this is arguing about semantics.

All of these guys are good, solid players.

As far as ice time is concerned, YES, we ARE talking about average TOI. But, in the case of Bergeron, Staal and Horton...the later 2 were getting more ice than Bergeron until early a week ago.

Both had 2 games in which they recieved somewhere in the neighborhood of 7-9 minutes of ice. And both had recieved a consistently high (15-17 minutes) amount of ice for a rook.

For the first 6 or so games, Bergeron was receiving 11, 12, 13 minutes.

It is only in the last 2 or so games that he has passed them. But pass them he has, I`ll give you that.

As far as Patrices skills are concerned....NO, I dont believe I sell him short.

The kid has 8 points in 10 games, 5 of them assists. He hasnt exhibited what I would call a high level of skill on any of them.

I wont argue that he is a very talented kid....I just dont see his talent as any bit superior to many of the young guns around the league!

In fact, after just 2 games, I would say that Zinovjev is a more skilled offenisve player than Bergeron!

Zino is aggressive, while Bergeron is not agressive along the boards or on the forecheck, nor does he make things happen! He is involved in offense as part of a solid 3 man line, but Axelsson and Rollie are the keys to that line. I think Bergeron has been more beneficiary than catalyst!

On the opposite end of the spectrum, Zinovjev is a creator!

I see Zino ending up being the more productive of the 2 by seasons end! I just think that his "go-getter" attitude will increase his production.

And actually, I just thought of the guy who I believe is the best rook so far....cant beleive I forgot him, as i have seen him twice now!

Marc- Andre Fleury!

Back to Patrice....I LOVE this kid and thank God that we drafted him! BUT, I want to see MORE out of him. Not necessarily pointwise. I want to see him become more assertive on the ice. become a catalyst, rather than a beneficiary!

Zinovjev is already showing that! Perhaps its due to personality, but where ever he got it, he has that intangible something that shows me that he is a difference maker! He is a guy who will make something happen. He will jump start a line by himself with his skating and passing.

I dont see Bergeron being that kind of guy. I see him as a guy who needs the line to be playing well for him to excel.

Nothing wrong with that...most guys are like that.

I`ll bend a bit for ya

Top 3 For Calder, as we speak:

1. Fleury
2. Pitkanen
3. Bergeron

Ultimately, I guess it comes down to that fact that I think we are getting carried away by building him up so much.

Certainly his arrival has been a Godsend.

I just dont see the spectacular performance that others see...especially in his own end. I solid, fundamental offensive play. But I also see a guy who is but average at the off wing role.

Oh well. He is what we need. And I`ll be happy for that!

Jeff

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10-29-2003, 09:53 AM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff from Maine
A lot of this is arguing about semantics.

All of these guys are good, solid players.

As far as ice time is concerned, YES, we ARE talking about average TOI. But, in the case of Bergeron, Staal and Horton...the later 2 were getting more ice than Bergeron until early a week ago.

Both had 2 games in which they recieved somewhere in the neighborhood of 7-9 minutes of ice. And both had recieved a consistently high (15-17 minutes) amount of ice for a rook.

For the first 6 or so games, Bergeron was receiving 11, 12, 13 minutes.

It is only in the last 2 or so games that he has passed them. But pass them he has, I`ll give you that.

As far as Patrices skills are concerned....NO, I dont believe I sell him short.

The kid has 8 points in 10 games, 5 of them assists. He hasnt exhibited what I would call a high level of skill on any of them.

I wont argue that he is a very talented kid....I just dont see his talent as any bit superior to many of the young guns around the league!

In fact, after just 2 games, I would say that Zinovjev is a more skilled offenisve player than Bergeron!

Zino is aggressive, while Bergeron is not agressive along the boards or on the forecheck, nor does he make things happen! He is involved in offense as part of a solid 3 man line, but Axelsson and Rollie are the keys to that line. I think Bergeron has been more beneficiary than catalyst!

On the opposite end of the spectrum, Zinovjev is a creator!

I see Zino ending up being the more productive of the 2 by seasons end! I just think that his "go-getter" attitude will increase his production.

And actually, I just thought of the guy who I believe is the best rook so far....cant beleive I forgot him, as i have seen him twice now!

Marc- Andre Fleury!

Back to Patrice....I LOVE this kid and thank God that we drafted him! BUT, I want to see MORE out of him. Not necessarily pointwise. I want to see him become more assertive on the ice. become a catalyst, rather than a beneficiary!

Zinovjev is already showing that! Perhaps its due to personality, but where ever he got it, he has that intangible something that shows me that he is a difference maker! He is a guy who will make something happen. He will jump start a line by himself with his skating and passing.

I dont see Bergeron being that kind of guy. I see him as a guy who needs the line to be playing well for him to excel.

Nothing wrong with that...most guys are like that.

I`ll bend a bit for ya

Top 3 For Calder, as we speak:

1. Fleury
2. Pitkanen
3. Bergeron

Ultimately, I guess it comes down to that fact that I think we are getting carried away by building him up so much.

Certainly his arrival has been a Godsend.

I just dont see the spectacular performance that others see...especially in his own end. I solid, fundamental offensive play. But I also see a guy who is but average at the off wing role.

Oh well. He is what we need. And I`ll be happy for that!

Jeff
I will end this conversation by saying I disagree with a lot of what you think his shortcomings are and hope that you start to see what I am seeing in the kid. I dont see him as being passive or a benificiary (which is almost an insult) by any means. But I will digress and see how it plays out.

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10-29-2003, 10:06 AM
  #24
Jeff from Maine
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DKH`s Comments

DKH`s comments are close to what I am thinking, maybe not we thinks I think

But I look at Bergeron and I see a solid, fundamental hockey player who will continue that style for a long time.

I DONT see a star when I look at Bergeron. I see a guy who will settle into a nice solid Josef Stumpel type career.

Quietly get his 50-60 points and grow into a solid 2 way center.

I just dont see him getting to the point where he is a guy who is THE man for a team. I dont see those intangibles that the star guys have.

I see that in Horton, and Staal to a lesser extent.

I see that instinctive drive. Its that something that we all saw in Thornton during his rookie year. Other young guys out produced Thornton. But he was unmistakably the one who you saw that raw talent and possibility for physical domination.

You could see the all around dominant guy in him.

I see that in Horton, but I dont see it in Bergeron.

I can see Bergeron being the "wingman" to the star that Zinovjev will become!

He will be a great complimentary piece.

Nothing wrong with that!

Later

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10-29-2003, 11:34 AM
  #25
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Folks, Bergy is a great player but he wont be captain. There are a few returning players coming back. Bergy most likely gets an A but C is usually given to returning players, not neccessarly the best player.

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