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Old
06-27-2017, 07:45 AM
  #26
Ivan13
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Either way you're stuck with a guy you don't want.
Yep.

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06-27-2017, 07:58 AM
  #27
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I'm curious if Grigs ever pulls through somewhere else. He wasn't used properly in Colorado but he clearly never put the work in either. He's gotta learn to have at least some drive and "want" in his game and so far in his career he hasn't shown it. He's never going to get rewarded.

That said, if somebody plays him at centre (for the love of god don't ever play him on the wing) with some talented forwards and he decides to give just a tiny ounce more effort he's going to produce.

He makes players around him better. His 4 most common linemates over his two year span in Colorado are Duchene, Iginla, Soderberg and Mackinnon (in that order). Below are each of those player's on ice production with and without Grigorenko.

Duchene: 3.35GF/60 with Grigorenko | 1.77GF/60 Away from Grigorenko
Iginla: 1.98 GF/60 with Grigorenko | 1.84GF/60 Away from Grigorenko
Soderberg: 2.54 GF/60 with Grigorenko | 1.73GF/60 Away from Grigorenko
Mackinnon: 3.38GF/60 with Grigorenko | 2:49GF/60 Away from Grigorenko

Again, he'll never survive without starting to give some effort but there's something definitely there. Players produce substantially better when they get to play with Grigs.

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06-27-2017, 08:05 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cousin Eddie View Post
I'm curious if Grigs ever pulls through somewhere else. He wasn't used properly in Colorado but he clearly never put the work in either. He's gotta learn to have at least some drive and "want" in his game and so far in his career he hasn't shown it. He's never going to get rewarded.

That said, if somebody plays him at centre (for the love of god don't ever play him on the wing) with some talented forwards and he decides to give just a tiny ounce more effort he's going to produce.

He makes players around him better. His 4 most common linemates over his two year span in Colorado are Duchene, Iginla, Soderberg and Mackinnon (in that order). Below are each of those player's on ice production with and without Grigorenko.

Duchene: 3.35GF/60 with Grigorenko | 1.77GF/60 Away from Grigorenko
Iginla: 1.98 GF/60 with Grigorenko | 1.84GF/60 Away from Grigorenko
Soderberg: 2.54 GF/60 with Grigorenko | 1.73GF/60 Away from Grigorenko
Mackinnon: 3.38GF/60 with Grigorenko | 2:49GF/60 Away from Grigorenko

Again, he'll never survive without starting to give some effort but there's something definitely there. Players produce substantially better when they get to play with Grigs.
Could that be because Grigo was heavily used in the O zone?

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06-27-2017, 08:15 AM
  #29
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The moves were made to make the team better and to create more healthy growth environment. They weren't traded because they hold no value in trade.

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06-27-2017, 08:25 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivan13 View Post
Could that be because Grigo was heavily used in the O zone?
Just had a look because I thought maybe you'd be onto something but nope. Duchene started slightly less in the Ozone with Grigs than he did away from him. The other 3 started slightly more. The percentages aren't enough to use it as any type of argument.

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06-27-2017, 08:36 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Cousin Eddie View Post
Just had a look because I thought maybe you'd be onto something but nope. Duchene started slightly less in the Ozone with Grigs than he did away from him. The other 3 started slightly more. The percentages aren't enough to use it as any type of argument.
Tnx.

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06-27-2017, 11:36 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cousin Eddie View Post
I'm curious if Grigs ever pulls through somewhere else. He wasn't used properly in Colorado but he clearly never put the work in either. He's gotta learn to have at least some drive and "want" in his game and so far in his career he hasn't shown it. He's never going to get rewarded.

That said, if somebody plays him at centre (for the love of god don't ever play him on the wing) with some talented forwards and he decides to give just a tiny ounce more effort he's going to produce.

He makes players around him better. His 4 most common linemates over his two year span in Colorado are Duchene, Iginla, Soderberg and Mackinnon (in that order). Below are each of those player's on ice production with and without Grigorenko.

Duchene: 3.35GF/60 with Grigorenko | 1.77GF/60 Away from Grigorenko
Iginla: 1.98 GF/60 with Grigorenko | 1.84GF/60 Away from Grigorenko
Soderberg: 2.54 GF/60 with Grigorenko | 1.73GF/60 Away from Grigorenko
Mackinnon: 3.38GF/60 with Grigorenko | 2:49GF/60 Away from Grigorenko

Again, he'll never survive without starting to give some effort but there's something definitely there. Players produce substantially better when they get to play with Grigs.
I'm curious how big that sample size is on each player. Overall I didn't think Grigorenko got a ton of ice time, so how much did he actually play with those guys?

Also, to reiterate what was said before, I'm also curious if Grigo got favorable zone starts as well.

Keep in mind Eric Gelinas had fantastic possession stats in NJ, but that was a bit of a smokescreen--he had very favorable ZS time and not much ice time overall.

Kind of the tale of the tape when it comes to the Avalanche. They get all these specialist-type players and then can't/won't use them in their specialized roles.

But no, Grigorenko is not a viable NHL player. He's Kyle Wellwood with more size, less speed, and even less utility. I'll be shocked if he doesn't bolt for the KHL this season.

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06-27-2017, 11:44 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Pokecheque View Post
I'm curious how big that sample size is on each player. Overall I didn't think Grigorenko got a ton of ice time, so how much did he actually play with those guys?

Also, to reiterate what was said before, I'm also curious if Grigo got favorable zone starts as well.

Keep in mind Eric Gelinas had fantastic possession stats in NJ, but that was a bit of a smokescreen--he had very favorable ZS time and not much ice time overall.

Kind of the tale of the tape when it comes to the Avalanche. They get all these specialist-type players and then can't/won't use them in their specialized roles.

But no, Grigorenko is not a viable NHL player. He's Kyle Wellwood with more size, less speed, and even less utility. I'll be shocked if he doesn't bolt for the KHL this season.
Those were his 4 most common linemates.

Grigorenko played 1631 minutes in those two years. 554 with Duchene, 423 with Iginla, 283 with Soderberg and 230 with Mackinnon. These aren't possession stats, it's production.

And yeah don't get me started on Gelinas. You could look at zone starts all you want but Gelinas isn't and never was a good ES player. He was a PP monster and never got an opportunity to show that in Colorado.

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06-27-2017, 11:51 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Pokecheque View Post
I'm curious how big that sample size is on each player. Overall I didn't think Grigorenko got a ton of ice time, so how much did he actually play with those guys?

Also, to reiterate what was said before, I'm also curious if Grigo got favorable zone starts as well.

Keep in mind Eric Gelinas had fantastic possession stats in NJ, but that was a bit of a smokescreen--he had very favorable ZS time and not much ice time overall.

Kind of the tale of the tape when it comes to the Avalanche. They get all these specialist-type players and then can't/won't use them in their specialized roles.

But no, Grigorenko is not a viable NHL player. He's Kyle Wellwood with more size, less speed, and even less utility. I'll be shocked if he doesn't bolt for the KHL this season.
52.7 Ozone starts two years ago
48.7 Ozone starts last year

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Old
06-28-2017, 05:43 AM
  #35
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with his age i still think he'll catch on somewhere and be a serviceable player at some point.

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06-28-2017, 06:19 PM
  #36
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Grigs could have been an amazing 4th ling right winger, capable of scoring 25-30 points for 1.5 - 2.0 mill per.

Should have kept him.

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06-28-2017, 06:27 PM
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Beauchemin was very bad last year, but it should be noted that unless he waived his NMC, the Avs would have been forced to protect him in the expansion draft.
Surprised it took 10 posts to hit the jackpot on why he was released.

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06-28-2017, 06:49 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Sea Eagles View Post
Grigs could have been an amazing 4th ling right winger, capable of scoring 25-30 points for 1.5 - 2.0 mill per.

Should have kept him.
He could barely score 25-30 pts playing on the 2nd and 3rd line, how is he going to do it on the 4th? Not to mention that he's physically useless and doesn't help the team from a defensive point of view. There are AHLers that are hungry and will give your team a boost, those 4th line spots are the place to find a diamond in the rough that can move up your line-up. Not waste it on a floater.

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06-28-2017, 09:11 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Sea Eagles View Post
Grigs could have been an amazing 4th ling right winger, capable of scoring 25-30 points for 1.5 - 2.0 mill per.

Should have kept him.
No, his skillset doesn't lend itself to being a guy who can be effective with 8-10 minutes a night. He's either a top-nine guy or he's nothing. And he's not driven enough to be a top-nine guy.

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06-28-2017, 09:51 PM
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I remember how excited I was for him when he had a great preseason. Such a shame, I need someone to fill his void...like a Yakupov.

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06-29-2017, 03:02 AM
  #41
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Surprised it took 10 posts to hit the jackpot on why he was released.
If that was the reason he was released, Joe would've asked him waive before buying him out. This was all about getting Beauchemin's suck out of the organization.

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Grigs could have been an amazing 4th ling right winger, capable of scoring 25-30 points for 1.5 - 2.0 mill per.

Should have kept him.
Greg was never going to be a 4th liner. He could've become a passable middle 6 Center if he ever learned to engage physically and hadn't quit on Bednar.

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06-29-2017, 07:01 AM
  #42
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The more I think about not qualifying Grigorenko, the more I don't like it. I was kinda "meh whatever" at first simply because of the effort he gives and the fact that he likely will never change here. At second thought though I cant help but wonder "why not simply qualify him"? It's just money. We aren't pressing anywhere near the cap this year. If he takes us to arbitration we could choose the one year term. I just don't see the harm in qualifying him.

Grigs has the skill, but I still doubt he would ever put it all together because of his lack of drive. Especially here with Bednar. But it's still worth the risk considering how many roster spaces and how much cap space we have. If he goes on somewhere else and puts it all together it's just going to be another blunder on Sakic's resume that could have been avoided. Not because Grigorenko looks like he's going to turn a corner, but because he was a 22 year old, NHL quality (low nhl quality mind you), former top 15 pick with skill who had a poor year on one of the worst NHL teams ever that you just let walk for nothing.

Grigs scores 27 points last year: "Let's reward him with a 1.3 million dollar contract"
Grigs scores 23 points the next year on the worst team in two decades: "What a bum, no way he deserves the same contract he put blood sweat and tears into earning last year"

I'm not arguing this because I think Grigs is worth it. I'm arguing because I just don't see what changed since last year and what the harm would be. The fact that I think Bednar played a big part in this just pisses me off more.


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06-29-2017, 07:39 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Cousin Eddie View Post
The more I think about not qualifying Grigorenko, the more I don't like it. I was kinda "meh whatever" at first simply because of the effort he gives and the fact that he likely will never change here. At second thought though I cant help but wonder "why not simply qualify him"? It's just money. We aren't pressing anywhere near the cap this year. If he takes us to arbitration we could choose the one year term. I just don't see the harm in qualifying him.

Grigs has the skill, but I still doubt he would ever put it all together because of his lack of drive. Especially here with Bednar. But it's still worth the risk considering how many roster spaces and how much cap space we have. If he goes on somewhere else and puts it all together it's just going to be another blunder on Sakic's resume that could have been avoided. Not because Grigorenko looks like he's going to turn a corner, but because he was a 22 year old, NHL quality (low nhl quality mind you), former top 15 pick with skill who had a poor year on one of the worst NHL teams ever that you just let walk for nothing.

Grigs scores 27 points last year: "Let's reward him with a 1.3 million dollar contract"
Grigs scores 23 points the next year on the worst team in two decades: "What a bum, no way he deserves the same contract he put blood sweat and tears into earning last year"

I'm not arguing this because I think Grigs is worth it. I'm arguing because I just don't see what changed since last year and what the harm would be. The fact that I think Bednar played a big part in this just pisses me off more.

You answered your own question. What kind of message would it send to the team if they qualified him? Hey guys, you can float around and not put in any effort and you'll still have a job next year!

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06-29-2017, 07:40 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Cousin Eddie View Post
The more I think about not qualifying Grigorenko, the more I don't like it. I was kinda "meh whatever" at first simply because of the effort he gives and the fact that he likely will never change here. At second thought though I cant help but wonder "why not simply qualify him"? It's just money. We aren't pressing anywhere near the cap this year. If he takes us to arbitration we could choose the one year term. I just don't see the harm in qualifying him.

Grigs has the skill, but I still doubt he would ever put it all together because of his lack of drive. Especially here with Bednar. But it's still worth the risk considering how many roster spaces and how much cap space we have. If he goes on somewhere else and puts it all together it's just going to be another blunder on Sakic's resume that could have been avoided. Not because Grigorenko looks like he's going to turn a corner, but because he was a 22 year old, NHL quality (low nhl quality mind you), former top 15 pick with skill who had a poor year on one of the worst NHL teams ever that you just let walk for nothing.

Grigs scores 27 points last year: "Let's reward him with a 1.3 million dollar contract"
Grigs scores 23 points the next year on the worst team in two decades: "What a bum, no way he deserves the same contract he put blood sweat and tears into earning last year"

I'm not arguing this because I think Grigs is worth it. I'm arguing because I just don't see what changed since last year and what the harm would be. The fact that I think Bednar played a big part in this just pisses me off more.
It is an odd choice after thinking about it a little bit... but I doubt the front office did more thinking than, "we need to trim the fat." Grigo just happened to actually need a new contract this year so we didn't qualify him

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06-29-2017, 07:52 AM
  #45
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You answered your own question. What kind of message would it send to the team if they qualified him? Hey guys, you can float around and not put in any effort and you'll still have a job next year!
So why did they pay him 1.3M last year? Plus he's well liked by the team. The guys are visibly happy when he scores. In that Custance article about Grigorenko and Detroit having mutual interest he even states that one of his Colorado teammates texted and said he does everything well but that he's still finding his confidence. I think whoever said that is quite wrong about him doing everything well but it shows an example of the support he gets from teammates.

He's probably never going to get that confidence under Bednar. I think the chance of him succeeding in Colorado is lower than it is in many other places. I just don't know what has changed from this year to last and what the harm of keeping him around is. Waive him if you have to. He's still a young asset. He's proven more than Siemens.

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06-29-2017, 07:56 AM
  #46
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I think they even wanted to give Grigo term last year too. They just have no idea what they are trying to do.

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06-29-2017, 08:31 AM
  #47
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I think they even wanted to give Grigo term last year too. They just have no idea what they are trying to do.
Yeah I don't get it. In 15/16 he was 7th among all Avalanche forwards in points and he gets rewarded with a 1.3M contract which thye tried to make longer term. The next season he finishes 5th among Avalanche forwards in points leading into a year when they have much more cap space and all of a sudden he isn't worth what he made the year before.

Bednar probably has a lot to do with it. Nothing else has changed and Bednar clearly isn't a fan.

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06-29-2017, 08:32 AM
  #48
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I think they even wanted to give Grigo term last year too. They just have no idea what they are trying to do.
I call BS. Please show me one link or tidbid from anyone within that organization that said they wanted to give that guy term.

As far as I can remember, the Avs were never going to give a wildcard like Grigorenko any term whatsoever until he proves something on the ice. I've heard zero rumors to that effect and the result is that they gave him a 1 year 'prove-it' deal.

They might have been hopeful that he turns a great opportunity into something but he didn't...not even close.

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06-29-2017, 03:23 PM
  #49
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I'd love 4th line wingers hitting 30 points a year. If you scale up through the lines proportionally then we'd have a team resembling a cross between the Soviet Union and the Brazilian football team from the 70s. Might be a bit difficult paying everyone though.

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06-30-2017, 01:34 AM
  #50
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I'd love 4th line wingers hitting 30 points a year. If you scale up through the lines proportionally then we'd have a team resembling a cross between the Soviet Union and the Brazilian football team from the 70s. Might be a bit difficult paying everyone though.
Everyone would love a 4th liner like that. Just one problem: He wasn't a 4th liner the entire season, he was all over the lineup. If he had been used as a 4th liner exclusively throughout the season his point totals would've been far less.

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