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The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, NHL revenues, relocation and expansion.

Phoenix CXXIX: I buy you out, you don't buy me out

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Old
06-30-2017, 01:56 AM
  #101
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How can the city of Phoenix feel the pressure of the team moving? They don't play in the city and no risk of losing a tenant.
Phoenix wants to host both teams. That window closes upon relocation. Creating perceived urgency is a huge step in overcoming decision-making inertia and completing any sort of deal. More so since you're working with a govermental/institutional inertia. Elected officials love to punt.

And as pointed out, if it doesn't work, it leaves the team with a wide array of options from punting and trying once again to relocation. No road block in the way of a lease if they decide to up and move.

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06-30-2017, 04:06 AM
  #102
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I agree with the conclusion, but not with the underlying implication of cause. This is not the case because hockey CAN'T work in Arizona - it is only the case because the Coyotes have been anemic at best for most of their existence here. It's like the hockey equivalent of a Pabst Blue Ribbon or Zima.



You know, it's funny... I was talking online the other day with some of my automotive industry pals, and we were talking about the Chrysler K car platform in the 1980s. Chrysler was on the brink of ruin when they introduced the K platform. I well remember how toxic their brand was for so many years... only fools and crazy people bought Dodges.

Chrysler then introduced the K platform. The cars were ugly as hell and dull as dirty dishwater. But they were cheap to build and allowed Chrysler to share parts and processes across various types of car, from sedans to minivans. Automotive purists turned their noses up at the cars, but it became apparent in hindsight that the K platform saved Chrysler's bacon. They were eventually bought out by Daimler-Benz and now have a great industry reputation for their cars, vans, and trucks.

I guess my point is that there is something salvageable in nearly every type of ruin. It just takes the right type of minds and planning. Whether the Coyotes have that in Andrew Barroway is at best a tossup, and I still remain convinced that the team's future in Arizona is almost certainly short-lived. Buuuuuuuut... if Chrysler could survive by hunkering down and putting up with ugliness for a while in order to satisfy a longer-term goal, it could work for NHL hockey in Arizona.
Take the Chrysler analogy to it logical conclusion. For hockey to thrive in Arizona it will need to pass by a cheaper league to operate than the NHL.

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06-30-2017, 09:23 AM
  #103
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That is a good questions and I agree that keeping a year to year lease keeps the premise of threatening to relocate.

However, I don't know of any other case where a lease renews mid-season...maybe there is but I'm not aware of it. Having it renew towards the end of the season or in the off season allows teams to gain leverage by making it time sensitive without a lame duck partial season.

My question on leverage on relocation then goes to those parties.

How can the city of Phoenix feel the pressure of the team moving? They don't play in the city and no risk of losing a tenant.

How can the tribe feel any pressure? If the team leaves, they can build one for the Suns, a smaller one for concerts etc....or they don't need an arena at all for their development as enough studies are out there that they don't generate new business in the region.

They can threaten the state since the Coyotes are already in Arizona but that tactic didn't seem to be too effective.
It appears that since 2013...nothing that IceArizona/Barroway has done...has been effective...

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06-30-2017, 09:48 AM
  #104
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I don't know how many of you venture to F40, but this gesture from Barroway - completely unsolicited - is pretty amazing.

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...1&postcount=52

I figure if we're going to slag the Coyotes' ownership for their faults, we should also applaud them for their virtues.

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06-30-2017, 10:00 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by The Feckless Puck View Post
I don't know how many of you venture to F40, but this gesture from Barroway - completely unsolicited - is pretty amazing.

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...1&postcount=52

I figure if we're going to slag the Coyotes' ownership for their faults, we should also applaud them for their virtues.
Personally applaud the donation...but this may not have been completely unsolicited...


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06-30-2017, 10:22 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Llama19 View Post
Personally applaud the donation...but this may not have been completely unsolicited...

Marc did not contact the Barroways and ask them to donate. He set up the GoFundMe for his daughter and let his friends and acquaintances know about it.

You're splitting hairs here for no real reason.

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06-30-2017, 10:27 AM
  #107
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Personally applaud the donation...but this may not have been completely unsolicited...


Jake was never directly asked for a donation or was obliged to make one.


Last edited by TheLegend: 06-30-2017 at 10:50 AM. Reason: put the flamethrower down after cooling off.
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06-30-2017, 10:29 AM
  #108
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So the owner's son tweets and encourages a donation to a touching cause. Obviously undermines their donation... am I following the logic here?

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06-30-2017, 10:50 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by The Feckless Puck View Post
Marc did not contact the Barroways and ask them to donate. He set up the GoFundMe for his daughter and let his friends and acquaintances know about it.

You're splitting hairs here for no real reason.
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Jake was never directly asked for a donation or was obliged to make one.
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So the owner's son tweets and encourages a donation to a touching cause. Obviously undermines their donation... am I following the logic here?
TFP stated it was unsolicited...

It seems that someone would have sent this information (i.e., the GoFundMe account) along to the Barroway's in some way...

That is all...


Last edited by tarheelhockey: 06-30-2017 at 10:57 AM. Reason: QEP
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06-30-2017, 11:00 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Llama19 View Post
TFP stated it was unsolicited...

It seems that someone would have sent this information (i.e., the GoFundMe account) along to the Barroway's in some way...

That is all...
Perhaps the Barroways (or at least Jake) follow Coyotes fans on social media. That is not unheard of, you know.


Last edited by The Feckless Puck: 06-30-2017 at 11:10 AM.
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06-30-2017, 11:16 AM
  #111
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Llama,

I agree with you in a very large sense on the collection of owners that the Coyotes have been subjected to. I really do.

However, in this case, concerning Barroway, I think the guy needs credit. This was a very considerate thing to do.

I think that even those of us who do not trust Barroway and his intentions in regard to the franchise (because of the debt-load in my case), still have to credit people when they do good things.

And, please, MODS, do not misunderstand me on this, but it is also true that, just because someone does something good, it does NOT mean that they are completely honest in everything they do. In other words, because the Barroways did this, does NOT show that they have honest intention to keep the team in Arizona forever. After all, even the worst of criminals (and i am not suggesting that Barroways belong in that category. I am merely pointing out the facts of human nature) do some good things.

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06-30-2017, 11:28 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by MNNumbers View Post
And, please, MODS, do not misunderstand me on this, but it is also true that, just because someone does something good, it does NOT mean that they are completely honest in everything they do. In other words, because the Barroways did this, does NOT show that they have honest intention to keep the team in Arizona forever. After all, even the worst of criminals (and i am not suggesting that Barroways belong in that category. I am merely pointing out the facts of human nature) do some good things.
I think the fact that you feel like you have to make this disclaimer to the moderators is disheartening. Is there a narrative requirement around here that demands that the Barroways be considered to be untrustworthy by default?

You know, it is possible that Barroway fully intends to stay in the Arizona market by some mechanism that we have not considered. Probabilities are subject to opinion, but it can't be wholly discounted.

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06-30-2017, 11:31 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by MNNumbers
In other words, because the Barroways did this, does NOT show that they have honest intention to keep the team in Arizona forever.
I obviously missed all the deleted posts that in anyway suggested that...

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06-30-2017, 11:35 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by The Feckless Puck View Post
I think the fact that you feel like you have to make this disclaimer to the moderators is disheartening. Is there a narrative requirement around here that demands that the Barroways be considered to be untrustworthy by default?

You know, it is possible that Barroway fully intends to stay in the Arizona market by some mechanism that we have not considered. Probabilities are subject to opinion, but it can't be wholly discounted.
I usually dislike moderator commentary on the board, and this should probably go without saying, but there is no requirement to be negative in the Phoenix thread. If you feel like there's positive things happening, feel free to post about positive things.

That is all.

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06-30-2017, 11:41 AM
  #115
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Originally Posted by The Feckless Puck View Post
I think the fact that you feel like you have to make this disclaimer to the moderators is disheartening. Is there a narrative requirement around here that demands that the Barroways be considered to be untrustworthy by default?

You know, it is possible that Barroway fully intends to stay in the Arizona market by some mechanism that we have not considered. Probabilities are subject to opinion, but it can't be wholly discounted.
Sorry, everyone,

I missed the mark of my intention in my post. The intention was something like this:

Llama seems to find fault in everything that either IA or Barroway does. I was attempting to say that, "Hey, give him credit for this. That doesn't make you less of a person. Nor does it make your arguments about moving the team any less valid."

My words were clunky, and I apologize. I actually had a comparison in mind which would have required a disclaimer for sure, but thought better of it, and didn't delete the disclaimer.

Again, sorry to unintentionally get everyone on the wrong track....

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06-30-2017, 11:49 AM
  #116
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Originally Posted by MNNumbers View Post
I missed the mark of my intention in my post. The intention was something like this:

Llama seems to find fault in everything that either IA or Barroway does. I was attempting to say that, "Hey, give him credit for this. That doesn't make you less of a person. Nor does it make your arguments about moving the team any less valid."

My words were clunky, and I apologize. I actually had a comparison in mind which would have required a disclaimer for sure, but thought better of it, and didn't delete the disclaimer.
I get your allusion and understand what you're saying, but I think we all have to be careful mentioning "white collar crime" in even a passing reference to Andrew Barroway. Disclaimer or no, it's a bad, bad idea.

Barroway is a terrible public speaker. He appears disconnected from the team he bought. He has no idea about how to cater to the demands of public relations. By all reports, he is heavily leveraged and has a lower net worth than the demands of his purchases require. But he's not a criminal, nor is he demonstrably or provably evil. And I think, generally speaking, accusations, implications, or aspersions of malfeasance with regards to the Coyotes' ownership get thrown about around here far too liberally (and I am likely an offender myself with regards to IceArizona and the Compliance Review).

Many of the posters in these megathreads seem to want to goad the narrative in certain directions for the sake of emojified popcorn, but I just think this narrative is crazy enough to stand on its own without flirting with slippery slopes.


Last edited by The Feckless Puck: 06-30-2017 at 11:53 AM. Reason: QEP
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06-30-2017, 11:50 AM
  #117
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Perhaps the Barroways (or at least Jake) follow Coyotes fans on social media. That is not unheard of, you know.
... honestly it doesnt matter either way, the fact that they donated to a great cause & got behind it encouraging others to do so is highly commendable. Reason for applause.
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Originally Posted by MNNumbers View Post
Llama,

I agree with you in a very large sense on the collection of owners that the Coyotes have been subjected to. I really do.

However, in this case, concerning Barroway, I think the guy needs credit. This was a very considerate thing to do.

I think that even those of us who do not trust Barroway and his intentions in regard to the franchise (because of the debt-load in my case), still have to credit people when they do good things.

And, please, MODS, do not misunderstand me on this, but it is also true that, just because someone does something good, it does NOT mean that they are completely honest in everything they do. In other words, because the Barroways did this, does NOT show that they have honest intention to keep the team in Arizona forever. After all, even the worst of criminals (and i am not suggesting that Barroways belong in that category. I am merely pointing out the facts of human nature) do some good things.
No of course not. Were all adults here MNN & understand that. Harold Ballard was one of the worst owners in league history however when it came to charities, donating millions himself, making the Gardens available to them for various events free of charge & so on, had a heart as big as the all outdoors & it was primarily for that reason that he was inducted into the HHOF. The Voting Committee in balancing his good deeds with the bad deciding the good outweighed the bad, his benevolence genuine, from the heart, done without guile or ego, often quietly with only the recipient aware of his generosity. Its fair to question the Barroways motives in purchasing the Coyotes and I suppose if ones enormously cynical one could assign motive to public acts of benevolence in burnishing, polishing up public image but I dont believe that, believe its entirely spontaneous, generous, heartfelt. Motive true... and even if its not? I dont care. A worthy cause receiving much needed funding. Good stuff.

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06-30-2017, 11:52 AM
  #118
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I get your allusion, but I think bringing that up in even a passing reference to Andrew Barroway - disclaimer or no - is a bad, bad idea.

Barroway is a terrible public speaker. He appears disconnected from the team he bought. He has no idea about how to cater to the demands of public relations. By all reports, he is heavily leveraged and has a lower net worth than the demands of his purchases require. But he's not a criminal, nor is he demonstrably or provably evil. And I think, generally speaking, accusations, implications, or aspersions of malfeasance with regards to the Coyotes' ownership get thrown about around here far too liberally (and I am likely an offender myself with regards to IceArizona and the Compliance Review).

I just think this narrative is crazy enough to stand on its own without goading it in certain directions for the sake of emojified popcorn.
Again, my intention was not to goad it anywhere. My intention was to suggest to Llama that he doesn't need to change his opinion of Barroway AS AN OWNER in order to credit him for this very kind contribution. Perhaps a PM would have been better, and again, I am sorry.

I was not attempting to judge Barroway MYSELF. It's not my place to judge him. And, maybe I should just shut up about it, because it seems like I can't find the right words to communicate to everyone what i mean to say, because my earlier clumsiness has clouded the matter.


Again, i am sorry.

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06-30-2017, 12:39 PM
  #119
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Again, i am sorry.
.... hey, no worries, your heart was in the right place, meant well..... anyone have any idea as to whether or not there'll be an "official announcement" from the NHL & AB or what gives here? Just "business as usual", nothing to see here folks move along or what? Because that certainly seems to be the posturing thus far.

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06-30-2017, 12:53 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by MNNumbers View Post
Again, my intention was not to goad it anywhere. My intention was to suggest to Llama that he doesn't need to change his opinion of Barroway AS AN OWNER in order to credit him for this very kind contribution. Perhaps a PM would have been better, and again, I am sorry.

I was not attempting to judge Barroway MYSELF. It's not my place to judge him. And, maybe I should just shut up about it, because it seems like I can't find the right words to communicate to everyone what i mean to say, because my earlier clumsiness has clouded the matter.


Again, i am sorry.
Don't worry about it. I think you're just a victim of collateral damage here. My beef is with the furry spitting one, not you.

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06-30-2017, 01:16 PM
  #121
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Don't worry about it. I think you're just a victim of collateral damage here. My beef is with the furry spitting one, not you.
Thanks, TFP.

I mean, I can be totally in his corner in almost everything he said about LeBlanc and company. And, tbh, I really don't think that Barroway has the means to make this thing work long-term. So, I expect that he is selling quick, although I don't know to whom.

But, still, a nice humanitarian move doesn't need to be spoiled because a person can't say anything good about someone....

Moving on....

Some have suggested that July 1 might be the lifting of the moratorium on Barroway making public comments on his acquisition.

What do you think of that?


Last edited by Killion: 06-30-2017 at 02:14 PM. Reason: not necc...
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06-30-2017, 01:20 PM
  #122
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Come on Llama, Even if you're a cynical ******* like me, you should at least recognize this as a huge PR win, which this franchise needs as many as possible.

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06-30-2017, 01:25 PM
  #123
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Oh, I'm highly skeptical they'll get anything done, but it's not exactly rocket science when two teams want a new building and one third party really wants to build them one and can "rennovate" without a referendum or sell a shady subsidy more easily than an obvious tax break or investment -- discussions are taking place.
I'm skeptical of any joint facility. It just seems to contradict the goals of both leagues as far as positioning each of their franchises in an exclusive use building where the team grabs as much of the arena profits as possible while off-loading as much expense as possible onto a public entity. I mean, I understand that political quotes and newspaper articles have a narrative - but putting aside the talk, the actions of the NBA and NHL on arenas seem pretty clear. Additionally for Sarver/Suns in this specific case, partnering with Yotes appears counterproductive because it involves vacating a publicly funding building - from the Suns perspective that is likely seen as unnecessary ammo for opposition.

When the time comes, I would expect Phoenix to be a willing partner in providing the Suns essentially everything they want (ie- successor exclusive use arena). I dont think it's a big deal at all for the Coyotes. Despite anything that has happened, Yotes still have a fully constructed, fully operational, non-hypothetical top tier hockey facility in Glendale. The franchise just has to work with AEG/COG to move the needle a bit more towards the "grab as much of the arena profits as possible while off-loading as much of the expense onto the public entity". I think it's reasonable to expect that will happen too.

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06-30-2017, 01:53 PM
  #124
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I'm skeptical of any joint facility. It just seems to contradict the goals of both leagues as far as positioning each of their franchises in an exclusive use building where the team grabs as much of the arena profits as possible while off-loading as much expense as possible onto a public entity. I mean, I understand that political quotes and newspaper articles have a narrative - but putting aside the talk, the actions of the NBA and NHL on arenas seem pretty clear. Additionally for Sarver/Suns in this specific case, partnering with Yotes appears counterproductive because it involves vacating a publicly funding building - from the Suns perspective that is likely seen as unnecessary ammo for opposition.

When the time comes, I would expect Phoenix to be a willing partner in providing the Suns essentially everything they want (ie- successor exclusive use arena). I dont think it's a big deal at all for the Coyotes. Despite anything that has happened, Yotes still have a fully constructed, fully operational, non-hypothetical top tier hockey facility in Glendale. The franchise just has to work with AEG/COG to move the needle a bit more towards the "grab as much of the arena profits as possible while off-loading as much of the expense onto the public entity". I think it's reasonable to expect that will happen too.
Are you suggesting a taxing district around Westgate? Or a new "really smoking deal" of a lease?? Just curious.

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06-30-2017, 02:19 PM
  #125
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I've criticized the Coyotes ownership in the past but here they did a great thing, good on them. Nice to see them do this.

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