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Old
06-30-2017, 08:07 PM
  #26
Henkka
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Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
Who... Smith, Kindl and Nosek? 'Somewhat more promising'?
We have lost at least future SC contender on these guys:

Janmark - Järnkrok - Nestrasil
Jurco - Nosek - Pulkkinen
Mursak - Andersson - Ferraro
Miller - Emmerton - Callahan

Quincey - Smith
Kindl - Marchenko
Lashoff - Sproul

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Old
06-30-2017, 08:16 PM
  #27
silkyjohnson50
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No, you guys are right. Holland is doing a fine job.

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Old
07-01-2017, 08:52 AM
  #28
HockeyinHD
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Originally Posted by silkyjohnson50 View Post
No, you guys are right. Holland is doing a fine job.


You guys understand that it is possible for a GM to make mistakes without everything he does being a mistake, yes? Or that it is possible for a GM to do something correct without everything he does being correct?

This constant need to immediately line up and castigate everything Holland does or is intimated to attempt to do has to get tedious for you all.

He's made some obvious errors, and had some obvious successes. Nuance, people. Nuance, for your own sanity's sake.

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Old
07-01-2017, 08:57 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Henkka View Post
We have lost at least future SC contender on these guys:


The other thing is a lot of these people are the ones who yelled at Holland for 'letting guys walk for nothing'. Well, other than Nosek he actually got something for those departing players, Vanek included. Since the remaining players may be (but really aren't) worse, now he's going to get yelled at about that too?

It seems like a lot of the outcomes end up with Holland getting yelled at whether he does what those people want, or not.

Player walks? Lost for nothing.
Player re-signs? Holland addicted to overpaying homegrown players.
Player is traded? Holland made team worse because guys behind them might be worse.

I don't see a lot of outcomes where someone can't find an angle to hammer Holland.

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Old
07-01-2017, 02:13 PM
  #30
Classicnamesup
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Too bad the obvious errors are dog piling the obvious successes and we now have a cap ceiling lottery team without a bright future atm.

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Old
07-01-2017, 02:24 PM
  #31
Datsyukian Deke
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3.5 million left in the cap for RFA's like AA & Tatar, with these typical & senseless Holland moves.

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Old
07-01-2017, 02:26 PM
  #32
Bruce Joker
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Originally Posted by Datsyukian Deke View Post
3.5 million left in the cap for RFA's like AA & Tatar, with these typical & senseless Holland moves.
So someone's getting moved then? Or can we go over the cap and put kronwall on ltir and be fine

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Old
07-01-2017, 02:28 PM
  #33
HockeyinHD
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Originally Posted by Classicnamesup View Post
Too bad the obvious errors are dog piling the obvious successes and we now have a cap ceiling lottery team without a bright future atm.
Enh, that's ultimately unavoidable. That it was avoided for most, if not all, of your adult life should be cause for happiness, not tears.

Detroit's been paying out the guys who were vital to their success. There's always the window at the bottom where the team hasn't drafted high very much (if at all), so there's not a next group of elite players coming to take over. Holland helped Detroit avoid one when he got D and Z super late, or something like this would have happened 10 years ago. It wouldn't have been as bad because of Lidstrom, but still.

So, the teams' going to flop around for a few years here and either find their feet in fairly short order or, if ownership decides, Holland will get run and people (some of whom also demanded Babcock get fired) can experience the delightful schadenfreude when the next GM comes in.

I think Holland not having his contract extended already gives us a bit of an idea on what the ownership group is thinking about. My interpretation is that unless the team is back in the playoffs this year, he's gone. Sure, gone 'upstairs', but out of the GM office.

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Old
07-01-2017, 02:31 PM
  #34
chances14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post


The other thing is a lot of these people are the ones who yelled at Holland for 'letting guys walk for nothing'. Well, other than Nosek he actually got something for those departing players, Vanek included. Since the remaining players may be (but really aren't) worse, now he's going to get yelled at about that too?

It seems like a lot of the outcomes end up with Holland getting yelled at whether he does what those people want, or not.

Player walks? Lost for nothing.
Player re-signs? Holland addicted to overpaying homegrown players.
Player is traded? Holland made team worse because guys behind them might be worse.

I don't see a lot of outcomes where someone can't find an angle to hammer Holland.
it's pretty simple what most of the board wants holland to do

don't sign veterans to multi year contracts, don't trade draft picks to acquire veterans, and throw the kids to the wolves so we see what they have.

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Old
07-01-2017, 02:31 PM
  #35
Henkka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Datsyukian Deke View Post
3.5 million left in the cap for RFA's like AA & Tatar, with these typical & senseless Holland moves.
Not really. Do the math better.

***

Update:

From capfriendly

Playing roster:
1. Zetterberg - 6.083M
2. Nielsen - 5.250M
3. Nyquist - 4.750M
4. Tatar - RFA - contract extension estimation ~4.500M
5. Abdelkader - 4.250M
6. Helm - 3.850M
7. Athanasiou - RFA - contract extension estimation ~2.250M
8. Sheahan - 2.075M
9. Glendening - 1.800M
10. Larkin - 1.383M (925k base + 457.5k bonuses from last season)
11. Mantha - 863k
12. Frk - RFA - estimated qualifying offer ~704k
13. Witkowski - 700k
14. Bertuzzi - 662k

LTIR, Franzen - 3.954M

1. Green - 6.000M
2. DeKeyser - 5.000M
3. Kronwall - 4.750M
4. Ericsson - 4.250M
5. Daley - 3.178M
6. Ouellet - RFA - contract extension estimation ~1.500M
7. Jensen - 812.5k
------------------

LTIR - Sproul - 625k

1a. Howard - 5.292M
1b. Mrazek - 4.000M
3rd Coreau - 612.5k

Other costs:
2016-17 Bonus overage - 457.5k (already mentioned in Larkin salary)
Weiss buyout caphit for 2017-18 - 2.567M
Salary retentions - 0 k

Salary cap: 75 Million.
Current total figures - 77.045M
Cap space: -2.045

LTIR help: 3.954M (Franzen) + 625k (Sproul)
Salary Cap space through LTIR:
~2.534M
(with 14+7+3 roster = 24 players)

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Old
07-01-2017, 02:33 PM
  #36
HockeyinHD
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Originally Posted by chances14 View Post
it's pretty simple what most of the board wants holland to do

don't sign veterans to multi year contracts, don't trade draft picks to acquire veterans, and throw the kids to the wolves so we see what they have.
2 out of 3 ain't bad.

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Old
07-01-2017, 02:45 PM
  #37
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Looks like there might be money to squeeze Vanek in. Unlikely though

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Old
07-01-2017, 02:47 PM
  #38
HockeyinHD
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Originally Posted by Henkka View Post
Not really. Do the math better.
Heh.

IMO the single biggest question is whether Kronwall plays a game this year or not. If he does then the final year of his contract's cap hit is assured, meaning the only relief is LTIR. If he doesn't, then Detroit can get clear of that last year which would be a huge benefit, given how many other deals are expiring at the same time.

Between Mrazek, Green, Kronwall, Sheahan and Weiss' buyout stepdown we're looking at over 17 mil of cap space coming free.

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Old
07-01-2017, 03:13 PM
  #39
Lazlo Hollyfeld
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Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post


You guys understand that it is possible for a GM to make mistakes without everything he does being a mistake, yes? Or that it is possible for a GM to do something correct without everything he does being correct?

This constant need to immediately line up and castigate everything Holland does or is intimated to attempt to do has to get tedious for you all.

He's made some obvious errors, and had some obvious successes. Nuance, people. Nuance, for your own sanity's sake.
Which mistakes has he made?

Just curious because I'm not sure I've heard you refer to any of Holland's moves as mistakes.

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Old
07-01-2017, 03:16 PM
  #40
21 Savage
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Originally Posted by Tatar Shots View Post
Looks like there might be money to squeeze Vanek in. Unlikely though
Would not surprise me at all if we add one of Grigorenko, Vanek, or Jagr today or tomorrow. Maybe witkowski puts us over not having enough for Vanek again though

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Old
07-01-2017, 03:22 PM
  #41
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Would not surprise me at all if we add one of Grigorenko, Vanek, or Jagr today or tomorrow. Maybe witkowski puts us over not having enough for Vanek again though
Witkowski is a non factor cap wise. He can just be waived if need be. There is definitely money for Grigorenko if they want to pursue him

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Old
07-01-2017, 04:54 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henkka View Post
Not really. Do the math better.

***

Update:

From capfriendly

Playing roster:
1. Zetterberg - 6.083M
2. Nielsen - 5.250M
3. Nyquist - 4.750M
4. Tatar - RFA - contract extension estimation ~4.500M
5. Abdelkader - 4.250M
6. Helm - 3.850M
7. Athanasiou - RFA - contract extension estimation ~2.250M
8. Sheahan - 2.075M
9. Glendening - 1.800M
10. Larkin - 1.383M (925k base + 457.5k bonuses from last season)
11. Mantha - 863k
12. Frk - RFA - estimated qualifying offer ~704k
13. Witkowski - 700k
14. Bertuzzi - 662k

LTIR, Franzen - 3.954M

1. Green - 6.000M
2. DeKeyser - 5.000M
3. Kronwall - 4.750M
4. Ericsson - 4.250M
5. Daley - 3.178M
6. Ouellet - RFA - contract extension estimation ~1.500M
7. Jensen - 812.5k
------------------

LTIR - Sproul - 625k

1a. Howard - 5.292M
1b. Mrazek - 4.000M
3rd Coreau - 612.5k

Other costs:
2016-17 Bonus overage - 457.5k (already mentioned in Larkin salary)
Weiss buyout caphit for 2017-18 - 2.567M
Salary retentions - 0 k

Salary cap: 75 Million.
Current total figures - 77.045M
Cap space: -2.045

LTIR help: 3.954M (Franzen) + 625k (Sproul)
Salary Cap space through LTIR:
~2.534M
(with 14+7+3 roster = 24 players)

They'll have to trade someone before the regular season starts correct? If they resign the FA's for the numbers you've stated they will obviously be above the cap and I thought you needed to be below the CAP before the LTIR stuff kicks in.

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Old
07-01-2017, 05:00 PM
  #43
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All you need to know about Detroit's cap situation is they will once again have the most expensive team in the league and they will fail to make the playoffs again.

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Old
07-01-2017, 05:06 PM
  #44
Henkka
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They'll have to trade someone before the regular season starts correct? If they resign the FA's for the numbers you've stated they will obviously be above the cap and I thought you needed to be below the CAP before the LTIR stuff kicks in.
They don't have to trade anybody.

A) someone could get injured a training season
B) someone could get injured at pre-season
C) waiver-free Tyler Bertuzzi could send down if no one is injured, or waive Witkowski.
D) then call Bert back, when someone will get injured at regular season.

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Old
07-01-2017, 05:15 PM
  #45
France Nielsen
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I think Holland might have Kronwall whacked for the cap space. That's what I get out of these roster moves.

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Old
07-01-2017, 05:54 PM
  #46
ZDH
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Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
All you need to know about Detroit's cap situation is they will once again have the most expensive team in the league and they will fail to make the playoffs again.
Most expensive team without a single star player, just a hot turd sandwich hitting the ice every game.

Gj kenny.

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Old
07-01-2017, 06:04 PM
  #47
WingedWheel1987
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Most expensive team without a single star player, just a hot turd sandwich hitting the ice every game.

Gj kenny.
Yeah but this roster has the most character in the league. That's priceless.

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Old
07-01-2017, 07:38 PM
  #48
ZDH
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Yeah but this roster has the most character in the league. That's priceless.
True

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Old
07-01-2017, 07:52 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by SirloinUB View Post
To expand on this, Franzen is eligible for Season Opening Injury Reserve (SOIR).

My interpretation of this: Franzen's contract is functionally free cap space and Holland does not need to do any contract shuffling to utilize that salary.

If my understanding is correct Holland has enough financial flexibility to make this forum have a melt down on July 1st
Franzen is not eligible for SOIR. You skipped past the opening paragraph qualifier.
Quote:
What is the season opening injured reserve (SOIR)?
If a player is injured during training-camp, they can be placed on season-opening injured reserve, to possibly obtain cap relief.
Franzen was injured long before training camp will start. For SOIR the words "is injured during training camp" means the injury occurred during camp. Not that the player was already injured at the start of training camp.

A perfect example of SOIR for Detroit is Darren McCarty, who was injured during training camp back in 2008-09 if I recall correctly. Many of us on the forum at the time were trying to figure out how Detroit was cap compliant. Later we found out about McCarty's fractional cap hit and the SOIR. The SOIR language wasn't in the old CBA in effect at that time--must have been a side deal between the NHL and PA sometime between 2005 and 2008 that formally appeared in the 2013 CBA.

The purpose of SOIR is how to deal with cap hits of players that were only on the NHL roster (Active or Inactive) for a fraction of the prior season. Franzen was on the NHL roster 100% of last season under Injured Reserve.


Last edited by mouser: 07-01-2017 at 08:01 PM.
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Old
07-01-2017, 08:50 PM
  #50
A II R
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Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post


The other thing is a lot of these people are the ones who yelled at Holland for 'letting guys walk for nothing'. Well, other than Nosek he actually got something for those departing players, Vanek included. Since the remaining players may be (but really aren't) worse, now he's going to get yelled at about that too?

It seems like a lot of the outcomes end up with Holland getting yelled at whether he does what those people want, or not.

Player walks? Lost for nothing.
Player re-signs? Holland addicted to overpaying homegrown players.
Player is traded? Holland made team worse because guys behind them might be worse.

I don't see a lot of outcomes where someone can't find an angle to hammer Holland.
What's this "player traded" you speak of? Holland doesn't make trades.

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