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Old
07-03-2017, 07:17 PM
  #76
tsweeney
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Originally Posted by Video Coach View Post
Habs fan coming in peace...just checking in to see if there's any appetite in trading Zetterberg and if so, what the return would need to be.

Not sure if there's a fit but Z fits a need for Habs.
And no, for many many reasons, both financial and sentimental, Henrik Zetterberg is not being traded.

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07-03-2017, 07:22 PM
  #77
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I don't give a crap if Z is 35, he's a bona-fide star and is still a good #1C or a fantastic #2. No way in hell I'm interested in Jeff Petry and a 2nd if I'm trading away the face of my franchise.
Well it's good that you don't give a crap if he's 35, since he'll be 37 at the start of the season. It's a moot point since he will not be traded, but no one is going to give you what you think he's worth based on sentimentality. They absolutely would if he was in his early 30s, not late 30s where you don't know how quickly his game will start to fall off.

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07-04-2017, 10:39 AM
  #78
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tatar's contract is going to be interesting. could see him playing hardball to get 6m a year on a 4-5 year deal knowing he will most likely be of the most coveted players in next year's free agent class

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07-04-2017, 10:53 AM
  #79
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tatar's contract is going to be interesting. could see him playing hardball to get 6m a year on a 4-5 year deal knowing he will most likely be of the most coveted players in next year's free agent class

Would rather trade him than to give him that sort of deal. I like him a lot and he's a good player, but the timeline of his prime and our next window doesn't match up.

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07-04-2017, 11:24 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by WolvesAndWings View Post
Would rather trade him than to give him that sort of deal. I like him a lot and he's a good player, but the timeline of his prime and our next window doesn't match up.
Contenders or not, the Red Wings are going to spend near or to the cap over the next few seasons. Given the overall lack of high-end young talent in the organization and consistently poor decision making in signing UFAs, a long term deal for Tatar is probably the best use of the Wings' cap space that we could realistically hope for.

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07-04-2017, 12:26 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Inspiration View Post
Contenders or not, the Red Wings are going to spend near or to the cap over the next few seasons. Given the overall lack of high-end young talent in the organization and consistently poor decision making in signing UFAs, a long term deal for Tatar is probably the best use of the Wings' cap space that we could realistically hope for.
I definitely see your point and I'm not necessarily saying your wrong in Tatar's case, but I just think Tatar is a second line winger on a good team (even though that may mean 1st line for us), and I think there are plenty of examples, especially within the Wings organization itself, that speak to it being better to move-on from second and third line caliber players instead of overpaying.

I really like Tatar, but Franzen, Abdelkader, and Helm are examples of what not to do, and I would like to avoid another one of those. I think what I said about the timelines are important because we don't want to hinder our ability to extend guys like Mantha, Larkin, and further down the road Hronek, Saarijarvi, and Rasmussen should they become true first-liners/top pair guys because of having too much money tied up in middle-six guys right when we are on the verge of contending again. Obviously I'm not assuming all or even any of the above will become top-end players, but that isn't to say it can't happen.

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07-04-2017, 12:30 PM
  #82
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There was NEVER nothing wrong on Franzen contract.

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Old
07-04-2017, 12:41 PM
  #83
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We're so royally screwed cap-wise that my only hope is Holland gets fired when we miss the playoffs again in 2018.

Helm
Abdelkader
Ericsson
Mrazek
Howard
Nyquist

All terribad deals.


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Old
07-04-2017, 01:25 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by WolvesAndWings View Post
I really like Tatar, but Franzen, Abdelkader, and Helm are examples of what not to do, and I would like to avoid another one of those. I think what I said about the timelines are important because we don't want to hinder our ability to extend guys like Mantha, Larkin, and further down the road Hronek, Saarijarvi, and Rasmussen should they become true first-liners/top pair guys because of having too much money tied up in middle-six guys right when we are on the verge of contending again. Obviously I'm not assuming all or even any of the above will become top-end players, but that isn't to say it can't happen.
Detroit will have a $18 million of cap space next offseason even if we assume no increase in the cap, and can spend $22 million if you count Franzen going on LTIR. Even if they sign Tatar long term, they have PLENTY of room to extend Mantha and Larkin (I know we like Mantha and Larkin, but these guys are hardly superstars). Saarijarvi has 3 years left on his ELC. Hronek and Rasmussen's ELCs will almost certainly slide one year (maybe more in Rasmussen's case), so they won't need new deals for another 4 years. By that time, Zetterberg, Helm, Glendening, Kronwall, Ericsson, Howard, and the Weiss buyout will all be off the books. And this of course assumes that Saarijarvi, Hronek and Rasmussen actually end up being good (which is far from a guarantee).

When you look at it, it's actually funny how little the Red Wings' terrible cap situation actually matters. The Wings haven't lost any key players recently due to cap problems, nor do they stand to over the next few seasons (simply because they have very few players actually worth paying). Right now, the only thing all of these bad contracts are doing is preventing Holland from signing other bad contracts. Fix the talent pool problem, and then the cap situation becomes an issue. Until then, all it's doing is preventing the Wings from finishing 22nd instead of 26th.

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07-04-2017, 01:38 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Reds4Life View Post
We're so royally screwed cap-wise that my only hope is Holland gets fired when we miss the playoffs again in 2018.

Helm
Abdelkader
Ericsson
Mrazek
Howard
Nyquist

All terribad deals.

I disagree about Mrazek and Nyquist. Mrazek's deal was a bridge deal, and he's still under club control when it's all done. He had a down year, yes, but he's still just in his mid 20s. Nyquist is going to hit free agency around the age of 30, and if he continues to play like he has for the Red Wings for his entire career, he will get a decent pay raise and for a long term deal. I don't think there's anything wrong with those two contracts.

If the Nyquist contract is bad, the Nielsen contract is disgusting.

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Old
07-04-2017, 01:45 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by WolvesAndWings View Post
Would rather trade him than to give him that sort of deal. I like him a lot and he's a good player, but the timeline of his prime and our next window doesn't match up.
It was interesting to hear Craig Custance ask Ken Holland about the last hockey trade to significantly improve his hockey club and Custance indicated it was Kozlov for Hasek...back in 2001. Yes, it has been 16 years.

I have no problem with trading Tatar and Nyquist, the thing you need to keep in mind is Holland thinks he has a playoff team so there's no way he's going to trade two guys who will likely be among his top 6 forwards for the foreseeable future.

How can I be so sure? We have a hell of a lot of history that indicates it ain't gonna happen.

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Old
07-04-2017, 01:57 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Reds4Life View Post
We're so royally screwed cap-wise that my only hope is Holland gets fired when we miss the playoffs again in 2018.

Helm
Abdelkader
Ericsson
Mrazek
Howard
Nyquist

All terribad deals.

-Mrazek's isn't bad, 1 more year left, big whoop.
-Gustav Nyquist's, also isn't bad, that is the going rate in the NHL for 40-50 pt players.
-Also, you didn't mention our two worst deals: Abdelkader and Dekeyser, length and money.
-And where is Frans Nielsen on your list?

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07-04-2017, 02:00 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Run the Jewels View Post
It was interesting to hear Craig Custance ask Ken Holland about the last hockey trade to significantly improve his hockey club and Custance indicated it was Kozlov for Hasek...back in 2001. Yes, it has been 16 years.

I have no problem with trading Tatar and Nyquist, the thing you need to keep in mind is Holland thinks he has a playoff team so there's no way he's going to trade two guys who will likely be among his top 6 forwards for the foreseeable future.

How can I be so sure? We have a hell of a lot of history that indicates it ain't gonna happen.
Did he ask Holland on why he makes so few roster for roster trades? I would love to hear why? Or, why he signed a 32 year old to a 7 year deal, when we are going the opposite way of winning?

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07-04-2017, 02:47 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Oddbob View Post
-Mrazek's isn't bad, 1 more year left, big whoop.
-Gustav Nyquist's, also isn't bad, that is the going rate in the NHL for 40-50 pt players.
-Also, you didn't mention our two worst deals: Abdelkader and Dekeyser, length and money.
-And where is Frans Nielsen on your list?
Mrazek - yes, just one more year, but he cripples the cap this off-season. Could have gotten good D instead.

Nyquist sucks, he's not one to drive plays, he just hums along.

I did mention Abdelkader..that contract is an abomination.

Dekeyser is actually quite good. Not worth 5mil, but he's our second best D right now.

Nielsen is a very good player. He's better than Hanzal who just got 5 mil in Dallas.

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Old
07-04-2017, 02:52 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Oddbob View Post
Did he ask Holland on why he makes so few roster for roster trades? I would love to hear why? Or, why he signed a 32 year old to a 7 year deal, when we are going the opposite way of winning?
He didn't go into any detail beyond asking about trading roster players to improve the roster. What I took his response to imply was that Kenny was surprised to hear this was the case. He said something like "is that right?"

I imagine that happens a lot when you are in an echo chamber and no one ever asks these types of questions. Holland's unpaid PR team - ie, Helene and Ansar - always indicate Holland is kicking the tires and seeing what is out there but alas nothing of significance happens. It's a CYA routine that suits management quite well I'd imagine given how often it is employed.

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Old
07-04-2017, 03:29 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Reds4Life View Post
Mrazek - yes, just one more year, but he cripples the cap this off-season. Could have gotten good D instead.

Nyquist sucks, he's not one to drive plays, he just hums along.

I did mention Abdelkader..that contract is an abomination.

Dekeyser is actually quite good. Not worth 5mil, but he's our second best D right now.

Nielsen is a very good player. He's better than Hanzal who just got 5 mil in Dallas.
DeKeyser is referred to as "Human Noodle" on most other Wings blogs.
Anyone who thinks it's not a terrible contract pretty much "doesn't hockey".

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07-04-2017, 03:57 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Run the Jewels View Post
It was interesting to hear Craig Custance ask Ken Holland about the last hockey trade to significantly improve his hockey club and Custance indicated it was Kozlov for Hasek...back in 2001. Yes, it has been 16 years.

I have no problem with trading Tatar and Nyquist, the thing you need to keep in mind is Holland thinks he has a playoff team so there's no way he's going to trade two guys who will likely be among his top 6 forwards for the foreseeable future.

How can I be so sure? We have a hell of a lot of history that indicates it ain't gonna happen.
I don't know if what Custance said is exactly correct. Granted these trades were a long time ago too, but since the Hasek trade Kenny got Schneider, Robert Lang, Brad Stuart. I'd say those were seen as relatively big moves at the time they happened. Schneider and Lang were both seen as the biggest "gets" their respective trade deadlines.

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Old
07-04-2017, 07:17 PM
  #93
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Which mistakes has he made?

Just curious because I'm not sure I've heard you refer to any of Holland's moves as mistakes.
Didn't like the Helm deal. Thought the Howard deal was dumb in a league where good goalies are fairly prevalent. Didn't care for the Franzen deal. I liked keeping him over Hossa, but I didn't like the contract structure. I wanted the team avoid picking up deadline pieces in 13-14. Thought the Weiss buyout was dumb. Thought the Tootoo signing was dumb. Most recently, I thought he made a mistake in not figuring out a way to make it work with Babcock.

I don't think that's a complete list, but it's what comes readily to mind.

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Old
07-05-2017, 08:04 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by TouringReg View Post
I don't know if what Custance said is exactly correct. Granted these trades were a long time ago too, but since the Hasek trade Kenny got Schneider, Robert Lang, Brad Stuart. I'd say those were seen as relatively big moves at the time they happened. Schneider and Lang were both seen as the biggest "gets" their respective trade deadlines.
He was talking about non-deadline deals, the type of "hockey trades" you see in the offseason, with players switching teams. Kenny hasn't done much of that, though I think there's some logical explanations too.

In the 00s we were contenders, there was never any need for the kind of 'shakeup' that comes with big trades. A more trade-prone GM might have pulled the trigger on a Datsyuk trade in 06 or so when questions lingered about his ability to step up in the playoffs.

Post-2010 or so, our issues have been mostly related to finding new core pieces. We lost our #2D, then our #1D, most recently our #1C. These are the most difficult type of pieces to acquire not only in the draft but in trades too. Kenny could have been more active trying to pull the trigger on something when Nyquist was at his peak value or something, but for the most part we just didn't have the type of assets you can realistically trade for core pieces barring an Erat/Forsberg or Eriksson/Seguin type miracle, and that's to be expected when you have a team never drafting in the top 10.

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Old
07-05-2017, 09:57 AM
  #95
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Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
Didn't like the Helm deal. Thought the Howard deal was dumb in a league where good goalies are fairly prevalent. Didn't care for the Franzen deal. I liked keeping him over Hossa, but I didn't like the contract structure. I wanted the team avoid picking up deadline pieces in 13-14. Thought the Weiss buyout was dumb. Thought the Tootoo signing was dumb. Most recently, I thought he made a mistake in not figuring out a way to make it work with Babcock.

I don't think that's a complete list, but it's what comes readily to mind.
I don't disagree with most of those, I just don't remember seeing you ever comment on a mistake Holland has made. Missed them I guess.

I honestly don't fault him for Babcock. I think Babs recognized the lack of talent and didn't want to coach a purgatory team any longer.


Last edited by Anglesmith: 07-05-2017 at 10:24 AM. Reason: qdp
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Old
07-05-2017, 10:00 AM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Reds4Life View Post
We're so royally screwed cap-wise that my only hope is Holland gets fired when we miss the playoffs again in 2018.

Helm
Abdelkader
Ericsson
Mrazek
Howard
Nyquist

All terribad deals.

How's Mrazek's bad? He has 1 more year left and Nyquist and Howard have 2 years left each i don't see those being bad deal. Now on the other hand with Helm, Abdelkader and Ericsson yeah those are bad deals for sure.

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Old
07-05-2017, 10:13 AM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Reds4Life View Post
Mrazek - yes, just one more year, but he cripples the cap this off-season. Could have gotten good D instead.

Nyquist sucks, he's not one to drive plays, he just hums along.

I did mention Abdelkader..that contract is an abomination.

Dekeyser is actually quite good. Not worth 5mil, but he's our second best D right now.

Nielsen is a very good player. He's better than Hanzal who just got 5 mil in Dallas.
How do you bag on Nyquist's contract and the way he plays and then justify Dekeyser's contract because he's our 2nd best D? Dekeyser doesn't drive the play either. He is a "safe" defenseman when he is at his best. Nyquist could arguably be considered our 2nd best forward on most nights and he would play 2nd line minutes on ANY team in the NHL. I can't say that Dekeyser would be a 2nd pairing defenseman on most teams. He's not that good, there was a reason he was undrafted. Sure he is serviceable but he is NOT a $5 million dollar defenseman or at least he wasn't last year.

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Old
07-05-2017, 10:14 AM
  #98
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Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
Didn't like the Helm deal. Thought the Howard deal was dumb in a league where good goalies are fairly prevalent. Didn't care for the Franzen deal. I liked keeping him over Hossa, but I didn't like the contract structure. I wanted the team avoid picking up deadline pieces in 13-14. Thought the Weiss buyout was dumb. Thought the Tootoo signing was dumb. Most recently, I thought he made a mistake in not figuring out a way to make it work with Babcock.

I don't think that's a complete list, but it's what comes readily to mind.
Babcock?

There was nothing to "figure out." He wants to be Captain Canada. He wants to expand and solidify his legacy. Taking a crap, franchise Canadian team into the playoffs, to the Cup will do that. He won here, he saw the trajectory of the team and even alluded to it when he talked about the lack of talent in the pipeline openly to the media.

By all accounts we offered him the money. What else could we have offered? Maybe final say over typical GM decisions like trades, UFA signings, and draft picks.

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Old
07-05-2017, 10:40 AM
  #99
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Looking at the numbers, I'm guessing that Franzen frees up about $4M, Tatar will get close to $5M AAV, Athanasiou will get close to $2M AAV, and they hit the cap, so that's it for the off season.

Am I missing anything?

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Old
07-05-2017, 12:01 PM
  #100
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There was NEVER nothing wrong on Franzen contract.
100% agreed. If the guy didn't have concussion issues he would still pot 30 goals or close to be very helpful to this team.

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