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Old
07-11-2017, 02:43 PM
  #151
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Originally Posted by Wingsfan 4 life View Post
Despite what alot of people here think, Detroit does have other movable contracts besides Tatar.
Which ones that actually clear cap space? Nyquist? And Green. But the blueline would be league worst without Green.

Other contracts would require you to retain salary, bundle assets, and/or take back salary.

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07-11-2017, 02:45 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by Wingsfan 4 life View Post
Despite what alot of people here think, Detroit does have other movable contracts besides Tatar.
Who?

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07-11-2017, 02:52 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by Bench View Post
Which ones that actually clear cap space? Nyquist? And Green. But the blueline would be league worst without Green.
Good.

In the words of king Aerys, "burn them all."

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07-11-2017, 02:52 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
Who?
I think it's just Nyquist and Green. Green is the only slam dunk easy sell. Nyquist would find a home, though, if you kicked enough tires.

Anyone else you could name is a cheap young player, so yeah, of course Larkin could be traded.

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07-11-2017, 02:54 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by ArGarBarGar View Post
Good.

In the words of king Aerys, "burn them all."
Haha. I mean part of me kind of wants to see what it would look like with Daley and DK doing all the lifting. If that doesn't inspire a rebuild I have no idea what would.

I'm sincerely worried Green won't want to return. I hope he sticks around. I think if management gets their act together he could still be a relevant contributor when the team turns. Oh no, I said something optimistic.... Uhh, Wings suck! Phew. Don't want people thinking I like this team.

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07-11-2017, 03:00 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by Bench View Post
Which ones that actually clear cap space? Nyquist? And Green. But the blueline would be league worst without Green.

Other contracts would require you to retain salary, bundle assets, and/or take back salary.
If we're talking $1.8M just to get under the cap for opening day, like the poster I quoted implied......Sheahan and AA each do that, even if it means we practically have to give either one away.

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07-11-2017, 03:00 PM
  #157
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League worst defence would be perfect rebuilding from Ken Holland. He is targeting as high lottery odds as possible. Isn't that what everybody wants in here and gives critics about?

Time to decide. Are the moves good or bad, if they make Wings worse?

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07-11-2017, 03:02 PM
  #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henkka View Post
League worst defence would be perfect rebuilding from Ken Holland. He is targeting as high lottery odds as possible. Isn't that what everybody wants in here and gives critics about?

Time to decide. Are the moves good or bad, if they make Wings worse?
Yeah because signing Trevor Daley for three years is definitely part of the master plan towards tanking.

Ken Holland is not pursuing lottery picks. He is just so bad at his job it might happen despite his "best" efforts.

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07-11-2017, 03:08 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by Henkka View Post
League worst defence would be perfect rebuilding from Ken Holland. He is targeting as high lottery odds as possible. Isn't that what everybody wants in here and gives critics about?

Time to decide. Are the moves good or bad, if they make Wings worse?
Depends. As I said, I think Green is a young enough a defender to keep. But that's if you're serious about rebuilding today.

But if you're rebuilding the goal isn't to get rid of *all* your good players. The goal is to abandon the overpaid ones and not sign deals like we saw to Helm and Nielsen. If Green has to go but Helm stays, that's not great management. Green is far more valuable to this team today and in the future.

So the question is: does player X help this team in 3-4 years? If so, and he's able to be retained for a good price, you don't need to unload everyone decent.

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07-11-2017, 03:09 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by Bench View Post
Haha. I mean part of me kind of wants to see what it would look like with Daley and DK doing all the lifting. If that doesn't inspire a rebuild I have no idea what would.

I'm sincerely worried Green won't want to return. I hope he sticks around. I think if management gets their act together he could still be a relevant contributor when the team turns. Oh no, I said something optimistic.... Uhh, Wings suck! Phew. Don't want people thinking I like this team.
How many years does Green have left on his contract? 4? I don't see the team bouncing back. I would send him to a contender, maybe revitalize his impact a bit and be a difference maker that leads to a cup. He sure isn't going to win one here unless he sticks around for awhile.

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07-11-2017, 03:10 PM
  #161
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I absolutely agree with this.

He got that rep as a prospect and it's never left, even though I think he's clearly at least average defensively on this team.
Weren't all of the comments around it "He's not bad defensively but he's not great either? He's where he needs to be positionally, but he's not doing anything superb when he's there.

I think one guy said he was weak and then like five of us corrected him that it's more that he avoids "bad defense" as a flaw more than has "good defense" as an asset.

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07-11-2017, 03:22 PM
  #162
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I think Nyquist, Tatar, Dekeyser, Green, Sheahan, Glenny, and XO all have tradeable contracts

People say DD is overpaid, but really that is what top 4 dmen get paid. The problem with DD is that he is not a top pairing dman, and is currently being played as one.

Sheahan and Glenny are a bit overpaid due to very poor years, but if they have even a meager bounce back, they are tradeable. Nyquist, Tats, Green should all need a good asset.

Heck I even think Helm is tradeable but we'd have to retain salary. Kronner, E, Howard, and Abby are the unmoveable contracts. Nielsen is TBD based on this season. Right now I don't think anyone would take him without a couple mil in salary being retained.

One or both of Howard & Mrazek could be tradeable later in the season. If Peter bounces back and Howard is good see one of the two being a good deadline asset with Peter being an RFA and Howie only have 1 year left. Neither are horribly overpaid if they are solid starters. Howie just needs to get healthy, and Peter needs to get his head on straight.

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07-11-2017, 03:43 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by ArGarBarGar View Post
How many years does Green have left on his contract? 4? I don't see the team bouncing back. I would send him to a contender, maybe revitalize his impact a bit and be a difference maker that leads to a cup. He sure isn't going to win one here unless he sticks around for awhile.
Green? This is his last year under contract. He'll be 32 this season. I think he's got 4ish years of his top hockey left, barring injury, of course.

I think if the Wings were serious about rebuilding starting today they could hit that 4 year window. But... Yeah. Probably not. So while I love him as a player and hope he stays, for the direction Holland is going, it's probably best if Green tells the team he wants to be traded to a contender this deadline.

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07-11-2017, 03:46 PM
  #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArGarBarGar View Post
How many years does Green have left on his contract? 4? I don't see the team bouncing back. I would send him to a contender, maybe revitalize his impact a bit and be a difference maker that leads to a cup. He sure isn't going to win one here unless he sticks around for awhile.
He is UFA after this year.

Also Nyquist has NMC that kicked in on July 1...or NTC? One of the two.

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07-11-2017, 03:57 PM
  #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beltv View Post
He is UFA after this year.

Also Nyquist has NMC that kicked in on July 1...or NTC? One of the two.
Full NTC

And Frans' NMC becomes a 10 team M-NTC after this season. The rest of ours are varying degrees of M-NTC .. Kronwall's 10 team no trade list starts this year, Ericsson's 19 team no trade list (da***) starts in 18-19.

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07-11-2017, 04:16 PM
  #166
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Originally Posted by Ezekial View Post
Full NTC

And Frans' NMC becomes a 10 team M-NTC after this season. The rest of ours are varying degrees of M-NTC .. Kronwall's 10 team no trade list starts this year, Ericsson's 19 team no trade list (da***) starts in 18-19.
Da *** is right. It's even worse though, because practically speaking Ericsson has a 29 team no trade list. Who would want him?

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07-12-2017, 10:02 AM
  #167
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Ken Holland's firesale plan will be:

2016 - Jakub Kindl
2017 - Brendan Smith, Tomas Jurco, Steve Ott
2018 - Mike Green, one of Tomas Tatar/Petr Mrazek
2019 - Niklas Kronwall, Jimmy Howard, possibly Gustav Nyquist
2020 - Trevor Daley, Jonathan Ericsson
2021 - Darren Helm, Luke Glendening, possibly Henrik Zetterberg
2022 - Frans Nielsen, Dan DeKeyser (+Tatar if he makes 5-year extension and is not traded)
2023 - Justin Abdelkader

After 2022 the new Generations has taken the torch pretty much totally.

At 2022 players are at this age:

Nielsen, 38
Abdelkader, 35
(Nyquist, 32)
(Tatar, 31)
Mantha, 27
Athanasiou, 27
Bertuzzi, 27
Larkin, 25
Svechnikov, 25
Rasmussen, 23
G.Smith, 24
Zablocki/Gallant/Adams etc., 22-23
2018 1st round pick, 22
2019 1st round pick, 21
2020 1st round pick, 20

DeKeyser, 32
Jensen, 31
Ouellet, 28
Saarijärvi, 25
Hronek, 24
Cholowski, 24
Lindström, 22

Petruzzelli, 23
Coreau, 30


Last edited by Henkka: 07-12-2017 at 10:19 AM.
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07-12-2017, 10:08 AM
  #168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henkka View Post
Ken Holland's firesale plan will be:

2016 - Jakub Kindl
2017 - Brendan Smith, Tomas Jurco, Steve Ott
2018 - Mike Green, one of Tomas Tatar/Petr Mrazek
2019 - Niklas Kronwall, Jimmy Howard, possibly Gustav Nyquist
2020 - Trevor Daley, Jonathan Ericsson
2021 - Darren Helm, Luke Glendening, possibly Henrik Zetterberg
2022 - Frans Nielsen, Dan DeKeyser (+Tatar if he makes 5-year extension and is not traded)
2023 - Justin Abdelkader
so, Finns appear to have a wit comparable to the Brits.

Seriously, 8 years isn't a fire sale.

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07-12-2017, 10:21 AM
  #169
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so, Finns appear to have a wit comparable to the Brits.

Seriously, 8 years isn't a fire sale.
Okay, seriously. It's rebuilding, when you sell assets away and don't buy them with picks. Sign more extra assets from UFA and sell them also. Draft with multiple picks year-by-year.

Can't you doomsday sayers have anything better to say?

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07-12-2017, 10:49 AM
  #170
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Originally Posted by Henkka View Post
Okay, seriously. It's rebuilding, when you sell assets away and don't buy them with picks. Sign more extra assets from UFA and sell them also. Draft with multiple picks year-by-year.

Can't you doomsday sayers have anything better to say?
sorry, I really intended my response to be more of a joke than a serious gripe or anything.

I really don't think your timeline is far off, and it's the sort of gradual crash/burn/hope for resurrection that I'm expecting. A lot will rest on exactly how lucky/unlucky this team gets both on the ice and/or in the draft lottery. If they manage to hang around the playoffs and continually shove themselves into drafting in the teens, I don't have much hope for that new batch of kids in '22 outside of getting very lucky with who we draft in at least one of those years.

My biggest issue is that the organization could have at least tried mitigating some of this by dealing guys like Flip, Gator, Helm, etc. for picks rather than letting them walk or re-signing them. And that they could have remained just as competitive while doing so.

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07-12-2017, 10:54 AM
  #171
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lol if anyone seriously thinks Gator, Helm, Kronwall, Z, Ericsson, and Nielsen end up being traded. The majority of the players you are trying to trade hold negative value, so they would cost you assets if you actually wanted to move them.

But let's back up for a second. Ken Holland's master plan involved signing all those players to horrendous contracts (Minus Z), so that he could spend the next eight years trading them?

I think Kenny's a senile old fool, but if that's his master plan, i might have been giving him too much credit.

It literally might be the worst looking rebuilding plan ever conceived.


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07-12-2017, 10:59 AM
  #172
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Originally Posted by Winger98 View Post
sorry, I really intended my response to be more of a joke than a serious gripe or anything.

I really don't think your timeline is far off, and it's the sort of gradual crash/burn/hope for resurrection that I'm expecting. A lot will rest on exactly how lucky/unlucky this team gets both on the ice and/or in the draft lottery. If they manage to hang around the playoffs and continually shove themselves into drafting in the teens, I don't have much hope for that new batch of kids in '22 outside of getting very lucky with who we draft in at least one of those years.

My biggest issue is that the organization could have at least tried mitigating some of this by dealing guys like Flip, Gator, Helm, etc. for picks rather than letting them walk or re-signing them. And that they could have remained just as competitive while doing so.
There is zero value in watching the next 2-3 years of DRW hockey. It's just purgatory. 2020 is when the Wings can start rebuilding (Z retires cause his salary drops to one million), and ideally by 2025 the Wings will be a playoff team again. A quick 16 year rebuild on the fly.


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07-16-2017, 06:10 PM
  #173
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Originally Posted by Winger98 View Post
sorry, I really intended my response to be more of a joke than a serious gripe or anything.

I really don't think your timeline is far off, and it's the sort of gradual crash/burn/hope for resurrection that I'm expecting. A lot will rest on exactly how lucky/unlucky this team gets both on the ice and/or in the draft lottery. If they manage to hang around the playoffs and continually shove themselves into drafting in the teens, I don't have much hope for that new batch of kids in '22 outside of getting very lucky with who we draft in at least one of those years.

My biggest issue is that the organization could have at least tried mitigating some of this by dealing guys like Flip, Gator, Helm, etc. for picks rather than letting them walk or re-signing them. And that they could have remained just as competitive while doing so.
No matter where you draft though, you need luck, has always been the case, for every team. No way anyone could guess, or think, Daigle and Stefan at 1st overall would crash so hard. Or that Zetterberg and Datsyuk would be so awesome.

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07-17-2017, 06:53 AM
  #174
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Looking at most other teams, a lot of them have a good chunk players still on their ELC and Detroit has Larkin and Mantha. I think this is where Detroit lacks bang for buck.

Winnipeg, for example, has Laine, Ehlers, Petan, Morrissey and Melchiori. Other than the last one, what they bring is awesome for what they cost. Toronto has Matthews, Nylander and Marner. The Pens has Guentzel, Sheary and Rowney.

Detroit needs to have young players in the lineup, not only for the experience, but for the cap relief they bring. I might have a hard time saying what I mean (English isn't my first language) but Detroit needs more from the young players.

That's why I think they need to buy-out Ericsson in order to let a young D in at some point this season, be it Hicketts, Hronek or Sulak, so they get more bang for their buck.

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07-17-2017, 10:30 PM
  #175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
There is zero value in watching the next 2-3 years of DRW hockey. It's just purgatory.
I can't really argue it. I guess it comes down to how much you just want to watch Wings hockey, and how much you want to see guys like Larkin, Mantha, etc. hopefully grow into good NHLers. And seeing the tail end of Z's career.



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No matter where you draft though, you need luck, has always been the case, for every team. No way anyone could guess, or think, Daigle and Stefan at 1st overall would crash so hard. Or that Zetterberg and Datsyuk would be so awesome.
for the same reason the casino always wins, though, there is a clear advantage to picking higher in the draft. Look at the draft from 2000-2010 and how many clear busts, that weren't injury related, is there? I see two, Svitov in 01 and Barker in 04. Out of 33 picks, two were just god awful.

Is there always going to be some degree of luck involved? Of course, but the higher you draft the less luck is necessary for that pick to turn out well.That's also why moving guys like Gator, Flip, etc. for picks should have been made - drafting later, we needed more picks just to give us better odds.

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