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What comes after Holland

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Old
07-02-2017, 03:00 PM
  #26
Winger98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oddbob View Post
You might be joking, but this stinks of a Red Wings move, and I actually predicted it in another thread. We need a new face, but I think he has been groomed to take over. Hope I am wrong, but worries I am not.
Martin wouldn't surprise me. Neither would Wright or Draper.

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Old
07-02-2017, 03:07 PM
  #27
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Yzerman would be HIGHLY pushed for my the city and the organization just because of the name and what he was for the Red Wings as a player. Now that doesn't mean he will be good look at Sakic for Colorado. It just has all the writing on the wall of something that would likely happen. I don't know much about his track record but seeing Yzerman in Tampa Bay surrounded by the color blue confuses me.

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07-02-2017, 10:24 PM
  #28
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Holland typically gets very little credit for his early success, the theory being he 'inherited' a very talented roster despite actually having been in the organization while it was being stocked.

That's actually what's happened with Yzerman in Tampa, and he's already falling through the cheap entry-level contract window for his young forwards, having missed 3 playoffs and losing another in the first round in 6 years.

I think he's been okay, but as far as his GM rep goes he dines out here a little bit on his playing career.

At the end of the day who the GM is isn't going to matter a whole bunch to a solid portion of this board. Unless that person is going to tank, they're not going to like the decisions.

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07-03-2017, 03:31 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by ScottyBowman View Post
You're exactly right. We have Chelios and Draper as assistant GM's, we have Maltby as a scout, and I'm sure Cleary will be in the front office next year. Holland is smart, surround himself with loyal subjects, give long term contracts to everyone, and nobody internally complains.
I was under impression Chelios resigned.

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07-03-2017, 08:36 AM
  #30
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What comes after Holland
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Originally Posted by Bondurant View Post
A chance to be a good hockey team once again.
ding ding ding.

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Old
07-03-2017, 08:48 AM
  #31
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They'll just hire the nearest Holland clone (Martin, I guess?), who will continue to do things in exactly the same way. Holland will have some other role in the organization, which will amount to having approval over whatever decisions the new GM makes, anyway.

It seems like overly wishful thinking to believe anything will change, as long as Holland is a part of the organization, and as long as the owners think he has valuable input. The team needs years/decades of organic failure before anything will change. The Illitches are the new Norrises.

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07-04-2017, 10:50 AM
  #32
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Pretty much anyone but Yzerman. Yzerman is a guy who will get you in the playoffs half the time, and his teams will seriously underperform while expectations are high the other half of the time. Don't believe me? look at his resume in Tampa.

I don't get why everything thinks former legends are the best GM candidates. yzerman is painfully average as a GM and Sakic is one of the worst GMs of all time.

Pass.

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07-04-2017, 10:58 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WolvesAndWings View Post
Pretty much anyone but Yzerman. Yzerman is a guy who will get you in the playoffs half the time, and his teams will seriously underperform while expectations are high the other half of the time. Don't believe me? look at his resume in Tampa.

I don't get why everything thinks former legends are the best GM candidates. yzerman is painfully average as a GM and Sakic is one of the worst GMs of all time.

Pass.
I mean, they almost made the playoffs this year without their captain. Which is pretty good. And frankly, I'd take making the conference finals a couple of times and the finals over one and done every year.

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Old
07-04-2017, 11:04 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Cyborg Yzerberg View Post
I mean, they almost made the playoffs this year without their captain. Which is pretty good. And frankly, I'd take making the conference finals a couple of times and the finals over one and done every year.
They should've won the division even without Stamkos this year. Missing the playoffs when many consider you the favourite to represent the East in the cup final is very, very bad. And that's happened twice now under Yzerman, both after Conference Final appearances.

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07-04-2017, 11:05 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by WolvesAndWings View Post
Pretty much anyone but Yzerman. Yzerman is a guy who will get you in the playoffs half the time, and his teams will seriously underperform while expectations are high the other half of the time. Don't believe me? look at his resume in Tampa.

I don't get why everything thinks former legends are the best GM candidates. yzerman is painfully average as a GM and Sakic is one of the worst GMs of all time.

Pass.
Tampa has been screwed by injuries during his team. I think he's done a fine job acquiring talent.

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Old
07-04-2017, 01:42 PM
  #36
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Why is there so much talk about how bad Sakic is, as GM? What bad moves has he made? Serious question, not defending him, just not sure which moves are his?

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Old
07-04-2017, 01:53 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by WolvesAndWings View Post
Pretty much anyone but Yzerman. Yzerman is a guy who will get you in the playoffs half the time, and his teams will seriously underperform while expectations are high the other half of the time. Don't believe me? look at his resume in Tampa.

I don't get why everything thinks former legends are the best GM candidates. yzerman is painfully average as a GM and Sakic is one of the worst GMs of all time.

Pass.
I don't get the former legend being the best candidate thing either. Mostly because IMO a fans love/hate for a GM is closely tied to whether the team is winning/losing. Legend or not.

Outside of maybe Milt Schmidt, I can't think of anybody who was universally loved by a fanbase, through thick or thin.


Last edited by Wingsfan 4 life: 07-04-2017 at 02:05 PM.
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Old
07-04-2017, 02:02 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Wingsfan 4 life View Post
I don't get the former legend being the best candidate thing either. Mostly because IMO a fans love/hate for a GM is closely tied to whether the team is winning/losing. Legend or not. Outside of maybe Milt Schmidt, I can't think of anybody who was universally loved by a fanbase, thick or thin.
Yeah, pretty much tarnishes their reputation, especially when they lose, whether their fault or not.

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Old
07-04-2017, 02:31 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by WolvesAndWings View Post
Pretty much anyone but Yzerman. Yzerman is a guy who will get you in the playoffs half the time, and his teams will seriously underperform while expectations are high the other half of the time. Don't believe me? look at his resume in Tampa.

I don't get why everything thinks former legends are the best GM candidates. yzerman is painfully average as a GM and Sakic is one of the worst GMs of all time.

Pass.
Anyone but Yzerman. Well played!

2011 draft
Namestnikov: 1st round
Kucherov: 2nd round
Palat: 7th round
2012 draft
Koekkoek: 1st round
Vasilevskiy: 2nd round
Paquette: 4th round
2013 draft
Drouin: 1st round (traded, Sergachev is now their top prospect)
2014 draft
Point: 3rd round

Free Agent signings:
2001
Tyler Johnson
2014
Anton Stralman

So in his first four drafts/free agent classes he's produced 9 NHL players.
  • Kucherov is an elite scorer
  • Johnson is a highly effective forward, not quite elite but damn good. Free agent.
  • Palat is a Nyquist like winger who made the NHL in 2 years. From the 7th round.
  • Namestnikov is a decent two way player.
  • Vasilevskiy is going to get a chance to prove whether he's their starting goalie going forward. He's been dominant in the AHL and International competition.
  • Stralman is a solid PMD who can put up 30 points and is right-handed. Free agent. Holland passed on him.
  • Paquette is a run of the mill bottom 6 forward. This would be one of Holland's highlights.

I'm not saying he's perfect. The Callahan extension was awful. So at least I can admit he's not perfect and point out where I think he's made mistakes.

So all he's done is draft a ton of skill, with most of it just starting to get into their prime. This is exactly what you want to see from your general manager. His first four years have built out a core of quality NHL talent that should keep them competitive for the next 5-7 years. So you have highly productive drafts, you have good free agent signings. You have trades that address needs and help you stay within the confines of the cap. You have identified your core and built around them. The Drouin trade is hella risky, but that's what you have to do in a capped environment.

So yes, absolutely, Yzerman has been awful in all these areas where you would judge a general manager!

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Old
07-04-2017, 02:45 PM
  #40
WolvesAndWings
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Run the Jewels View Post
Anyone but Yzerman. Well played!

2011 draft
Namestnikov: 1st round
Kucherov: 2nd round
Palat: 7th round
2012 draft
Koekkoek: 1st round
Vasilevskiy: 2nd round
Paquette: 4th round
2013 draft
Drouin: 1st round (traded, Sergachev is now their top prospect)
2014 draft
Point: 3rd round

Free Agent signings:
2001
Tyler Johnson
2014
Anton Stralman

So in his first four drafts/free agent classes he's produced 9 NHL players.
  • Kucherov is an elite scorer
  • Johnson is a highly effective forward, not quite elite but damn good. Free agent.
  • Palat is a Nyquist like winger who made the NHL in 2 years. From the 7th round.
  • Namestnikov is a decent two way player.
  • Vasilevskiy is going to get a chance to prove whether he's their starting goalie going forward. He's been dominant in the AHL and International competition.
  • Stralman is a solid PMD who can put up 30 points and is right-handed. Free agent. Holland passed on him.
  • Paquette is a run of the mill bottom 6 forward. This would be one of Holland's highlights.

I'm not saying he's perfect. The Callahan extension was awful. So at least I can admit he's not perfect and point out where I think he's made mistakes.

So all he's done is draft a ton of skill, with most of it just starting to get into their prime. This is exactly what you want to see from your general manager. His first four years have built out a core of quality NHL talent that should keep them competitive for the next 5-7 years. So you have highly productive drafts, you have good free agent signings. You have trades that address needs and help you stay within the confines of the cap. You have identified your core and built around them. The Drouin trade is hella risky, but that's what you have to do in a capped environment.

So yes, absolutely, Yzerman has been awful in all these areas where you would judge a general manager!

We all know Tampa's scouting is great, and yes Yzerman is competent when it comes to the draft, no one is arguing that. I do think however that it's absolutely unacceptable to miss the playoffs when you're one of, if not the favourite to make the cup final out of your conference...especially when it happens twice in seven years

And just so we're clear, Yzerman is my favourite player of all time. I grew up loving the guy, and have no agenda against him. I just don't buy the whole GOAT GM thing a lot of the younger Wings fans seem to think of him. This is the same line of extreme, irrational thinking that results in claims of Holland being the worst GM in the league.

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Old
07-04-2017, 02:55 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by WolvesAndWings View Post
We all know Tampa's scouting is great, and yes Yzerman is competent when it comes to the draft, no one is arguing that. I do think however that it's absolutely unacceptable to miss the playoffs when you're one of, if not the favourite to make the cup final out of your conference...especially when it happens twice in seven years

And just so we're clear, Yzerman is my favourite player of all time. I grew up loving the guy, and have no agenda against him. I just don't buy the whole GOAT GM thing a lot of the younger Wings fans seem to think of him. This is the same line of extreme, irrational thinking that results in claims of Holland being the worst GM in the league.
Your exact phase was "anyone but Yzerman".

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Old
07-04-2017, 03:08 PM
  #42
WolvesAndWings
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Originally Posted by Run the Jewels View Post
Your exact phase was "anyone but Yzerman".
Yes, yes it was. About half the fanbase thinks he's the only option and there is legitimate reason to believe he would come here. If it were mere fantasy I wouldn't even bring it up but I think it's clear that it's a legitimate possibility and that scares me.

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07-04-2017, 03:21 PM
  #43
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Yzerman would be great, but i i don't think it's in his nature to cut and run on Tampa. The very same loyalty and commitment we saw while he played for Detroit will be the reason why he doesn't leave Tampa. If Tampa had already won a cup i could MAYBE see him come back to Detroit.

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Old
07-04-2017, 03:55 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Cyborg Yzerberg View Post
I mean, they almost made the playoffs this year without their captain. Which is pretty good. And frankly, I'd take making the conference finals a couple of times and the finals over one and done every year.
It's tough to be unbiased, with Yzerman being my favorite player of all time, and with how eager I am to relieve Holland of his duties. But my best guess is that Yzerman would do ok, but there are probably better (external) candidates out there.

I'd love for him to come home again and succeed, but I want the best man for the job even more.

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Old
07-04-2017, 06:04 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
Yzerman would be great, but i i don't think it's in his nature to cut and run on Tampa. The very same loyalty and commitment we saw while he played for Detroit will be the reason why he doesn't leave Tampa. If Tampa had already won a cup i could MAYBE see him come back to Detroit.
I agree, I just don't see it without him having delivered the cup down there.

Not even sure an in person meeting with Mrs. I would probably change that.

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Old
07-04-2017, 07:20 PM
  #46
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Why is there so much talk about how bad Sakic is, as GM? What bad moves has he made? Serious question, not defending him, just not sure which moves are his?
Well, he built the current Avs team and they were one of the worst teams in NHL history (record wise) IIRC.

It's not move A or move B that was necessary bad. It's the fact the end result of all the moves has been disastrous.

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07-04-2017, 11:43 PM
  #47
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Damage control comes after Holland it is going to take years for the next guy to clean up his mess with the bad contracts and bad drafting.

Hopefully Wright will leave with Holland.

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Old
07-05-2017, 12:02 PM
  #48
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Anybody, as long as they aren't Holland 2.0 or anything resembling as such. Team needs a new identity, mindset, & overhaul to become respectable once again.

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Old
07-05-2017, 03:03 PM
  #49
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George floated the idea of Kris Draper taking over after Holland, which suggests to me that the Wings have to get Oilers-level bad before there's a realization about hiring from within.

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07-05-2017, 06:08 PM
  #50
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What comes after Holland? Better days.

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