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Old
07-05-2017, 06:10 PM
  #51
Henkka
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Originally Posted by Datsyukian Deke View Post
Anybody, as long as they aren't Holland 2.0 or anything resembling as such. Team needs a new identity, mindset, & overhaul to become respectable once again.
Too bad that Holland is building a hockey program with new identity and mindset.

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07-05-2017, 06:16 PM
  #52
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Too bad that Holland is building a hockey program with new identity and mindset.
Less is more!!!!!

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Old
07-05-2017, 06:32 PM
  #53
France Nielsen
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Originally Posted by Henkka View Post
Too bad that Holland is building a hockey program with new identity and mindset.
That identity being a dead puck era New Jersey Devils team...

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07-06-2017, 06:15 AM
  #54
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That identity being a dead puck era New Jersey Devils team...
I would absolutely hate winning 3 Stanley Cups.

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07-06-2017, 06:44 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Henkka View Post
I would absolutely hate winning 3 Stanley Cups.
And if this team had anything remotely resembling that era of New Jersey goaltending and defense, you might have a point.

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07-06-2017, 01:30 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by jkutswings View Post
And if this team had anything remotely resembling that era of New Jersey goaltending and defense, you might have a point.
I dont love Ken Holland by any means but its literally the first year he missed playoffs in 20 years as GM. Of course they dont have that goaltending or defense (dont need it in the cap NHL anyways) because its literally year one of missing the playoffs and drafting higher.

He is taking a completely different approach to building a new team so whoever said that was wrong. By the end of the rebuild, how do you know they wont have an amazing defense and goaltending? They obviously wont have it the first year they missed playoffs.

Youre going to be a miserable fan for a long time if you expect a rebuild to be done in one offseason after making the playoffs 25 years straight

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07-06-2017, 01:50 PM
  #57
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I dont love Ken Holland by any means but its literally the first year he missed playoffs in 20 years as GM. Of course they dont have that goaltending or defense (dont need it in the cap NHL anyways) because its literally year one of missing the playoffs and drafting higher.

He is taking a completely different approach to building a new team so whoever said that was wrong. By the end of the rebuild, how do you know they wont have an amazing defense and goaltending? They obviously wont have it the first year they missed playoffs.

Youre going to be a miserable fan for a long time if you expect a rebuild to be done in one offseason after making the playoffs 25 years straight
Holland is trying to build a first round exit team. That's his end game. If you think he has some grand plan that is simply in its infancy, where the end result is a cup contending roster, you are gonna be very sad 4-5 years from now. If the Wings draft in the 7-10 range for the next 3-4 years, this team will still be in absolutely miserable shape. When you have zero core players on your roster or potential core players in your farm system, the odds of any GM building a cup contending roster is very low when you draft in that range. However, if the goal is to build mediocre playoff fodder, you could probably build a playoff bubble team. Although it will still be very hard to do even that with the numerous terrible contracts on the books for the next half decade.

Don't be so naive and pretend one year of missing the playoffs is why people are complaining.


Last edited by WingedWheel1987: 07-06-2017 at 01:56 PM.
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Old
07-06-2017, 02:25 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
Holland is trying to build a first round exit team. That's his end game. If you think he has some grand plan that is simply in its infancy, where the end result is a cup contending roster, you are gonna be very sad 4-5 years from now. If the Wings draft in the 7-10 range for the next 3-4 years, this team will still be in absolutely miserable shape. When you have zero core players on your roster or potential core players in your farm system, the odds of any GM building a cup contending roster is very low when you draft in that range. However, if the goal is to build mediocre playoff fodder, you could probably build a playoff bubble team. Although it will still be very hard to do even that with the numerous terrible contracts on the books for the next half decade.

Don't be so naive and pretend one year of missing the playoffs is why people are complaining.
Don't be so certain. All it takes is Cholowski panning out and none of that is true.

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07-06-2017, 02:54 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by vladdy16 View Post
Don't be so certain. All it takes is Cholowski panning out and none of that is true.
How long should we wait until we decide he won't pan out and need to find another solution?

This isn't like drafting a top-5 bonafide prospect and taking an educated risk in building around him.

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07-06-2017, 03:45 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by vladdy16 View Post
Don't be so certain. All it takes is Cholowski panning out and none of that is true.
He's not Jesus. If we're lucky, he's a second pairing defenseman. I don't know where people got the idea that Cholowski is a future first pairing guy.

Cholowskesus?

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07-06-2017, 05:31 PM
  #61
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What comes after Holland?
Hope!

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07-06-2017, 06:14 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by ArGarBarGar View Post
How long should we wait until we decide he won't pan out and need to find another solution?

This isn't like drafting a top-5 bonafide prospect and taking an educated risk in building around him.
Wouldn't you be looking for other solutions all along?

And you're right, Cholowski isn't a generational talent with a specific revolutionary skill set that you're going to have to be exacting to build around. He's a high IQ rink rat, no sacrifices need to be made on his account.

Just saying you can't sleep on the impact it would have, if Cholowski reaches anywhere near max potential.

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Originally Posted by France Nielsen View Post
He's not Jesus. If we're lucky, he's a second pairing defenseman. I don't know where people got the idea that Cholowski is a future first pairing guy.

Cholowskesus?
What? You're saying it would take the second coming for the Red Wings to have any shot at advancing past the 1st round at any time in the next half decade? Because that's the hyperbolic comment I was replying to.

I've gotten the idea that Cholowski has no.1 potential by watching him play. He has unteachable traits that compound and multiply for a defensemen as he gains experience and the talent around him increases.

He very well may only translate into a team player and second pairing guy (feel free to give your reasoning for the certainty that he'll never be more than that), but with our depth at forward u25 and the talent we have on the back end in Cholowski's age range, I'd be nervous proclaiming that there isn't a general plan shaping up for the future, or that there are zero potential core players on the farm.

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07-06-2017, 08:19 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by vladdy16 View Post
Wouldn't you be looking for other solutions all along?

And you're right, Cholowski isn't a generational talent with a specific revolutionary skill set that you're going to have to be exacting to build around. He's a high IQ rink rat, no sacrifices need to be made on his account.

Just saying you can't sleep on the impact it would have, if Cholowski reaches anywhere near max potential.



What? You're saying it would take the second coming for the Red Wings to have any shot at advancing past the 1st round at any time in the next half decade? Because that's the hyperbolic comment I was replying to.

I've gotten the idea that Cholowski has no.1 potential by watching him play. He has unteachable traits that compound and multiply for a defensemen as he gains experience and the talent around him increases.

He very well may only translate into a team player and second pairing guy (feel free to give your reasoning for the certainty that he'll never be more than that), but with our depth at forward u25 and the talent we have on the back end in Cholowski's age range, I'd be nervous proclaiming that there isn't a general plan shaping up for the future, or that there are zero potential core players on the farm.
I am gonna stay out of debate but, I haven't watched Cholo much so am interested in hearing what you think based on what you have seen regarding him

Thanks

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07-06-2017, 11:10 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by vladdy16 View Post
He very well may only translate into a team player and second pairing guy (feel free to give your reasoning for the certainty that he'll never be more than that), but with our depth at forward u25 and the talent we have on the back end in Cholowski's age range, I'd be nervous proclaiming that there isn't a general plan shaping up for the future, or that there are zero potential core players on the farm.
I no longer believe the current front office and scouting staff is capable of finding a first tier player outside of a top-5 (perhaps even top-3) draft pick.

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07-07-2017, 07:35 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by France Nielsen View Post
He's not Jesus. If we're lucky, he's a second pairing defenseman. I don't know where people got the idea that Cholowski is a future first pairing guy.
Yeah... just like Chychrun.

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07-07-2017, 08:06 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Henkka View Post
Yeah... just like Chychrun.
Did you know that Chychrun had more points as a teenager than any defenseman we've drafted in the past 17 years?

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07-07-2017, 08:31 AM
  #67
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Did you know that Chychrun had more points as a teenager than any defenseman we've drafted in the past 17 years?
With 20 points in 68 games as a rookie, I'd expect him to at least approach, if not surpass, 30 points this year.

Mike Green scored 36 points, and most likely won't see the end of this season in Detroit. After that, Jensen and Kronwall each had 13 points.

So yeah, the guy I wanted them to take at the time, and still wish they would've taken, looks like a decent player, while Cholowski is, at best, 2-3 years away from even playing regular NHL minutes.

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07-07-2017, 10:25 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Zetterberg4Captain View Post
I am gonna stay out of debate but, I haven't watched Cholo much so am interested in hearing what you think based on what you have seen regarding him

Thanks
The thing that impresses me the most about Cholowski is that he is always operating within the framework of the 5 man unit. He is economical with his own movement and positioning, and is consistently aware of where the other 4 players(usually in front of him) are on the ice.

You can see in Cholowskis game, that he recognizes that sometimes if you want to get the puck to player or area C, you have to make a simple play over to player B first, and watch the rest happen from the right position. He's always adjusting his position, and the placement of the puck to maximize the effectiveness of his 5 man unit. And as a non-technical aside, he has great body language, taking equal pride in tertiary assists and primary assists.

That kind of selflessness and birds eye view increases it's potency as the calibur of your teammates increases. And it's a great trait for development, because it makes it so his in game 'reps' so to speak, are usually productive from a technical stand point, whereas a lot of teenagers playing hockey are going to lose some shifts to the chaos.

The biggest weaknesses to his game, are his strength, his shot and his d-zone positioning. The 3 easiest things to develop post adolescence, especially when an NHL team is taking an aggresive and direct approach to your development.

I think he has a chance to be a lot better than the players he's usually compared to, and a lot better than most people imagine.

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07-07-2017, 10:52 AM
  #69
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Did you know that Chychrun had more points as a teenager than any defenseman we've drafted in the past 17 years?
Sure, but he did that on a team that only managed 24 regulation-overtime wins and had Pavel Datsyuk on the payroll. There's no room for guys like that when you're a 24 win roster with playoff aspirations.

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07-07-2017, 11:11 AM
  #70
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Did you know that Chychrun had more points as a teenager than any defenseman we've drafted in the past 17 years?
Did you know he was drafted by a worse team than any the Wings have iced in 30 years?

It'll be interesting to see how he progresses, but he was essentially dubbed a high-floor, low-ceiling type of player. Which isn't what we need.

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07-07-2017, 11:19 AM
  #71
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It'll be interesting to see how he progresses, but he was essentially dubbed a high-floor, low-ceiling type of player.
I don't really ever recall that, but there was similar chatter on Rasmussen the last few months. We shouldn't be moving goalposts based on who we pick and who we don't.

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07-07-2017, 11:23 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by vladdy16 View Post
The thing that impresses me the most about Cholowski is that he is always operating within the framework of the 5 man unit. He is economical with his own movement and positioning, and is consistently aware of where the other 4 players(usually in front of him) are on the ice.

You can see in Cholowskis game, that he recognizes that sometimes if you want to get the puck to player or area C, you have to make a simple play over to player B first, and watch the rest happen from the right position. He's always adjusting his position, and the placement of the puck to maximize the effectiveness of his 5 man unit. And as a non-technical aside, he has great body language, taking equal pride in tertiary assists and primary assists.

That kind of selflessness and birds eye view increases it's potency as the calibur of your teammates increases. And it's a great trait for development, because it makes it so his in game 'reps' so to speak, are usually productive from a technical stand point, whereas a lot of teenagers playing hockey are going to lose some shifts to the chaos.

The biggest weaknesses to his game, are his strength, his shot and his d-zone positioning. The 3 easiest things to develop post adolescence, especially when an NHL team is taking an aggresive and direct approach to your development.

I think he has a chance to be a lot better than the players he's usually compared to, and a lot better than most people imagine.
Thank you for this. I have a hard time knowing what to think of Cholowski. When we drafted him I hadn't read about him or seen him really at all despite following the draft pretty closely. Furthermore he came from a poor team in a lower league so interpreting his stat line is tough. However I loved everything I read afterwards. High IQ, great passing D that's showing higher potential because he just had a huge growth spurt and is physically underdeveloped...count me in.

A year later I'm still super uncertain about him though. His numbers in college weren't very impressive and I haven't heard much about him at St. Cloud. Most people seem to suggest he's been ok but not particularly noteworthy. Couple that with Hronek's meteoric rise and I sort of soured on him a little. I'm glad to hear that the things we drafted him for are still present and as he matures physically his ceiling could still be very high.

The one thing I've noticed about every Tyler Wright pick is they all seem to be super-motivated, high character guys. Larkin, Svech, Cholowski and Rasmussen are all described as being rink rats in essentially every interview. Cholowski seems like a great kid that way. I guess he spent all of his free time studying or skating. Hopefully he has a little more fun in the W without having to worry about school.

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07-07-2017, 01:41 PM
  #73
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I don't really ever recall that, but there was similar chatter on Rasmussen the last few months. We shouldn't be moving goalposts based on who we pick and who we don't.
But how could anyone defend Ken Holland's performance without moving goalposts?

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Did you know he was drafted by a worse team than any the Wings have iced in 30 years?
And we could have drafted him, we passed on that and it's going to come back and bite us. But at least we have Helm and Nielsen to show for it.

Is Detroit's D hot s*** all of a sudden? As if cracking Arizona's D squad is somehow easier than cracking Detroit's? Their D is anchored by Ekman-Larson who is in a different league entirely than anyone on our defense so not sure what point you're trying to make exactly. He made the NHL as a D at 18 years old and did really well considering the circumstances, how often does that happen?

And we had 79 points to their 70, with the same number of ROWs at 24. We were propelled by an anomalous number of shootout wins. Going by substantive metrics like goals for/against, etc., we were right in their ballpark. So they're not quite worse than any team the Wings have iced in the last 30 years, when you consider the state of last season.


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Old
07-08-2017, 08:45 PM
  #74
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Did you know that Chychrun had more points as a teenager than any defenseman we've drafted in the past 17 years?
Well you have to factor in Hronek in that picture as well. We got 2 of our top 5 prospects in that deal.

I like the attempt on Cholowski it is a swing for the fences pick. Quite frankly given the direction of the team we don't need to turn Chychrun into JayBo here...

Now Holland doesn't get credit for picking a long-term guy that probably fits better with bottoming out for a couple years. But Chychrun's ability to play right away might not have been ideal really long-run.

If passing on Chychrun has us with two of our top 4 d-man is that not a good deal? I don't think Chychrun is going to be a top 20 D-man in the league so it would seem that was smart.

For the record I think Cholowski has a pretty massive ceiling. Hopefully he hits that, I really like the way he skates and processes the game. Time will tell, but Hronek needs to be factored into this as well because that is looking like a pretty massive part of the decision for them to move Datsyuk's salary still draft the player they liked and get another player that looks terrific.

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07-08-2017, 08:51 PM
  #75
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If passing on Chychrun has us with two of our top 4 d-man is that not a good deal? I don't think Chychrun is going to be a top 20 D-man in the league so it would seem that was smart.
Definitely, but that hasn't happened yet. And the proof is in the pudding, our ability to puck moving offensive defensemen has been abysmal.

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