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Old
07-05-2017, 08:38 AM
  #26
newfy
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I think Holland said that because he has too. The wings are to proud to say theyre looking at a rebuild (especially in a new arena) but a lot of moves point in that direction. They had what, 7 picks in the top 100 already this past draft and thats with it being the first time theyve missed playoffs in 25 years?

I think theyre probably thinking the wings can be a bubble team in the new arena and try for playoffs but if theyre out of contention theyll sell at the deadline again.

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Old
07-05-2017, 08:46 AM
  #27
TatarTangle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oddbob View Post
In many interviews, Ken Holland has stated, no rebuild, and they want the team in the playoffs in 2017-2018. We missed the playoffs last year, by a lot, are vets are 1 year older and 1 year more banged up. As well, our only new addition is a 34 year old, 4-5 type d-man, who will be 2-3 on our team. I just don't get how ownership and Holland, honestly think that this is going to get us in the playoffs.

This isn't a rip Holland/Ownership thread, just an honest question, on how they think we do better this year, than last year? With the exact same roster.

Add in the fact that:

Tatar will cost more money, won't bring more points
Mrazek is likely pissed, which is bad for the lockerroom
Mrazek is pissed because he's a child. The guy is handed everything, fails miserably, and then throws tantrums? Bye. Take your ego to the KHL, you aren't that good.

If Howard was healthly last year they make the playoffs. But Howard and healthy aren't synonymous.

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Old
07-05-2017, 09:13 AM
  #28
Zetterberg4Captain
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Originally Posted by TatarTangle View Post
Mrazek is pissed because he's a child. The guy is handed everything, fails miserably, and then throws tantrums? Bye. Take your ego to the KHL, you aren't that good.

If Howard was healthly last year they make the playoffs. But Howard and healthy aren't synonymous.
where are these stories coming from exactly?

any chance they're from someone who isnt in the red wings front office that clearly has an agenda at work

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Old
07-05-2017, 09:37 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Zetterberg4Captain View Post
where are these stories coming from exactly?

any chance they're from someone who isnt in the red wings front office that clearly has an agenda at work
Where there's smoke. I highly doubt someone's life is so meaningless they decided to make up rumours about a hockey player.

Mrazek has nobody but himself to blame for all his woes. They have done everything to cater to him and he has simply fallen on his face but he's too much of a child to accept and understand it. For his sake and well being I hope he puts on his big boy pants and gets to work, he obv has the talent to succeed in the NHL. Maybe take a lesson from Jimmy Howard.

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07-05-2017, 09:43 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by TatarTangle View Post
Where there's smoke. I highly doubt someone's life is so meaningless they decided to make up rumours about a hockey player.

Mrazek has nobody but himself to blame for all his woes. They have done everything to cater to him and he has simply fallen on his face but he's too much of a child to accept and understand it. For his sake and well being I hope he puts on his big boy pants and gets to work, he obv has the talent to succeed in the NHL. Maybe take a lesson from Jimmy Howard.
Sorry

But that's allot of venom your spewing there that literally all of a sudden became okay to say around time of expansion.

To me it seems to convienent is all, as though it's a personal vendetta orchestrated by and through Ken holland.

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07-05-2017, 09:51 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Zetterberg4Captain View Post
Sorry

But that's allot of venom your spewing there that literally all of a sudden became okay to say around time of expansion.

To me it seems to convienent is all, as though it's a personal vendetta orchestrated by and through Ken holland.
Could be, I'm not one to discount anything. Goes without saying that Mrazek getting back on track fixes everything.

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Old
07-05-2017, 10:09 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by jkutswings View Post
What they likely THINK is that, last year, a bunch of things suddenly performed significantly below the average of the previous several years. And if some combination of:
* Goaltending
* Power play
* Puck possession stats

Have even a decent improvement, they'll be right back in the mix for the 8 seed.

But that also kinda implies that those things fell apart this past season due to circumstances that can be quickly remedied. And it's the WHY that leads many fans to disbelief, because they don't feel it was due to a fluke, or an easily coachable change in approach.

Many fans think the bottom fell out because of the combination of:
* Datsyuk leaving
* Kronwall and Ericsson finally burning out completely
* The chickens finally coming home to roost#

# Several years of decline in overall talent, through the combination of overpaying role players, which limits financial flexibility, and not managing to land any high-end talent in the draft, eventually hit the threshold of no longer being able to regularly compete with much of the NHL.

None of which is quickly remedied.

We'll see how next season unfolds. Either the young guys will significantly improve, and the ship will stop taking on water...or it'll be another ugly year, and break out the lifeboats for real.
I think this is pretty much everything there is to say save for 1 thing.

I don't think we got any better this off-season while other teams in the conference and division did. That makes it even tougher to think about playoffs. The teams at the top, even if they got a little worse like the Caps/Habs, aren't going to drop so far to give us room to take their spots. They're still gonna make the playoffs. Meanwhile teams like NJ and the Canes are going to be more competitive I think.

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Old
07-05-2017, 10:21 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Pavels Dog View Post
Don't obsess over what Holland says, look at what he does. Sell for picks at the TDL? Don't trade future assets to protect anyone in expansion? Don't trade young players for immediate help? Sign mainly short-term, cheap FAs?

All moves that fit into a rebuilding strategy. Not a tanking strategy, which is what many think is the only way a rebuild can work. But definitely rebuilding moves. If he was intent on making the playoffs at any cost there are moves he could have made. He could have gone after Alzner, Shattenkirk, Radulov, Marleau. He could have traded picks and prospects.

Holland wants the team to try. He wants the young players to have expectations on them, to strive towards greatness. He wants Blashill to prove himself, not have a 'get out of jail free' card by saying they're not going to try to win. He wants fans to at least have a sliver of hope that the team will be worth watching.

But the important part is; he's not sacrificing the future. He said as late as in the draft; he's focusing more on the long-term. It's not an all-in approach towards the playoffs, he just doesn't want the team to start Game 1 of the season with an intention of losing as much as possible.
What he has done this off-season doesn't make me think he's committed to a full rebuild.

When has Ken Holland, even in years where we were definitely not rebuilding, made the moves for players like Shattenkirk, Radulov, Marleau? The moves he makes are for guys like Cole, Legwand.

You can have expectations for young players without playoffs in their sights. You play your guts out every night or you're not on the team. You improve your game or you're not playing. I'm not sure why "playoffs" need to be in the frame for expectations to exist. How realistic is that anyway? The team that was so **** last season we finished bottom 5, somehow after adding Daley and Witkowski are going to be a playoff threat? Let's be honest I don't think any player on the team buys that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lomekian View Post
If we make the playoffs it will be off a Mrazek rebound and big steps forward from AA, Mantha & Larkin in all likelihood. If that happens I'll be happy.
I'll only be happy if we take actual steps and not luck. People can have unsustainable years. It happens all the time. The shortened version of this was early last season where I think we won 6 games in a row or something, got into some scrappy fights, and people said this team just believed in each other and it was paying off. No, we were just riding some unsustainable luck.

I think AA and Larkin have been a bit lucky.

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Old
07-05-2017, 10:28 AM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flowah View Post
When has Ken Holland, even in years where we were definitely not rebuilding, made the moves for players like Shattenkirk
Tried for Suter, tried for Niskanen, signed Mike Green

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Originally Posted by Flowah View Post
Radulov
Signed Vanek

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Originally Posted by Flowah View Post
Marleau?
Signed Alfredsson

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Old
07-05-2017, 10:57 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Frk It View Post
Tried for Suter, tried for Niskanen, signed Mike Green

Signed Vanek

Signed Alfredsson
Good point.

But based on the news about the players mentioned, I don't think it says much that Ken Holland didn't talk to them. The guys you mentioned were all essentially "free." We had the cap space, and they were for 1 year deals for 2 of em.

Marleau, Shattenkirk, Radulov were way out of our price range/cap situation, barring big trades. Especially if you assume Tatar gets a 5x5 or something close. Pull the Daley and Witkowski contracts, and assume Shattenkirk for whatever reason gives us the discount he gave to NYR. I still don't think we have enough for Holland to even bother reaching out to those guys.

So again, when was the last time Ken Holland made that kind of big trade? Is there something even within the realm of possibility where he could dump enough salary to take on the contracts those guys just signed?

The question is really "If Holland had the cap room, would he have made a serious effort at those players?"

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Old
07-05-2017, 12:13 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Flowah View Post
The question is really "If Holland had the cap room, would he have made a serious effort at those players?"
There were serious offers to Suter and Parise but they chose to go home. We planned to attempt to throw the checkbook at Stamkos too. What other UFA hit that was well worth the money and was the right age? They don't just hit UFA status very often. Next thing we can pray that we do a little better, luck out with some D on a draft and throw the check book at Tavares?

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Old
07-05-2017, 12:19 PM
  #37
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I could see the Wings making the playoffs this year as an unsustainable "Good" team with a ******** of OT losses.

Knowing Holland though that means we'd buy at the TDL only to get swept

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Old
07-05-2017, 12:24 PM
  #38
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Management still sees Mantha with potential to be elite.
Which management would that be? Jimmy D? Blashill?

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Old
07-05-2017, 02:22 PM
  #39
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A lot of things have to go right/improve this season for the Wings to make the playoffs, and then they're only 1st round fodder anyway.

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Old
07-05-2017, 02:45 PM
  #40
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Hockeytown - If everything goes right, come and watch the Wings get annhilated in the first round.

Good times.

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Old
07-05-2017, 03:05 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
Hockeytown - If everything goes right, come and watch the Wings get annhilated in the first round.

Good times.
Apparently "anything" can happen if you make it in. Team planes would have to collide mid-air in order for this garbage team to win the Cup.

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Old
07-05-2017, 03:54 PM
  #42
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A lot can happen over an off-season, and through the course of a season. There seems to be no mention of youth in this thread, but every year players emerge to fill new roles around the league. Larkin, Mantha, AA, all emerged as dynamic players pretty much out of the gate. I'm looking forward to seeing what player or what combination of players emerge from the Calder Cup team to add a new element to our lineup.

Svechnikov, Bertuzzi and Nosek if he was still here, have few obstacles towards climbing the depth chart.

Green is still maturing and has started to look like a real leader. Going into FA he could have a revelatory year.

Dekeyser is hopefully in some sort of summer conditioning program to mend his waning athleticism. The coach might realize Abdelkaders on the team next year. Maybe Nyquist has grown up over the off season

The Red Wings are not a good team, and are not trending in a positive direction, but in the modern NHL, it's nearly impossible to not be a couple positive developments away from the playoffs.

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07-05-2017, 04:09 PM
  #43
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Common Wings fans they aren't going to make the playoffa they will not even be close. They will finish dead last in the division and will be fighting with NJ for dead last in the east.

Vegas and Colorado will likely have worse season and we will need some luck to get Dahlin.

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Old
07-05-2017, 04:31 PM
  #44
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Every team's minimum goal should be the playoffs. Whether its perceived as a realistic goal or not makes no difference from words alone.

As others have said. Its not what Holland says, its what he does.

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Old
07-06-2017, 07:59 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by vladdy16 View Post
A lot can happen over an off-season, and through the course of a season. There seems to be no mention of youth in this thread, but every year players emerge to fill new roles around the league. Larkin, Mantha, AA, all emerged as dynamic players pretty much out of the gate. I'm looking forward to seeing what player or what combination of players emerge from the Calder Cup team to add a new element to our lineup.
Despite your description of them as "dynamic," none of those 3 kids have as of yet shown they can be the next core of elite players needed to be a playoff contender. They're going to have to take some mighty BIG steps to show that and if we want to have any shot of making the playoffs.

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Every team's minimum goal should be the playoffs. Whether its perceived as a realistic goal or not makes no difference from words alone.
That's how you end up in perpetual mediocrity.

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Old
07-06-2017, 08:19 AM
  #46
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Every team we could be competing with for a playoff spot has improved themselves in the last few weeks. We haven't.

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07-06-2017, 09:01 AM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Cranky Doodle Daddy View Post
Every team we could be competing with for a playoff spot has improved themselves in the last few weeks. We haven't.

The difference is to improve our team we need to fill big holes that just aren't available. 1D and true 1C. The other teams have those, or something extremely close.

Montreal - Galchenyuk, Pacioretty, Weber, Price
Ottawa - Karlsson, Turris, Hoffman, Stone and a super defensive system
Boston - Bergeron, Krejci, Marchand, Pastrnak, Rask, McAvoy, Chara, Carlo
Toronto - Matthews, Nylander, Marner, Reilly, Kadri
Tampa - Stamkos, Johnson, Kucherov, Palat, Vasilevsky, Hedman, Stralman
Florida - Barkov, Huberdeau, Ekblad, Luongo

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Old
07-06-2017, 09:06 AM
  #48
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Originally Posted by TatarTangle View Post
If Howard was healthly last year they make the playoffs.
The same Jimmy Howard who was 10-11-1? Yeah, he was totally the difference maker. If only they could've had like, 1 more point.

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Old
07-06-2017, 09:37 AM
  #49
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Originally Posted by TatarTangle View Post
Mrazek is pissed because he's a child. The guy is handed everything, fails miserably, and then throws tantrums? Bye. Take your ego to the KHL, you aren't that good.

If Howard was healthly last year they make the playoffs. But Howard and healthy aren't synonymous.
What was he handed again? Out played Jimmy took the starter role only to have KH show favor to Jimmy. Calls out KH on his **** moves direction of the team and the fact the young players don't get along with the coach. After doing so was left unprotected by KH because his ego can't have people question him. KH built this roster and will not take blame or anyone questioning him. They will not make the playoffs.

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Old
07-06-2017, 09:39 AM
  #50
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Originally Posted by vladdy16 View Post
A lot can happen over an off-season, and through the course of a season. There seems to be no mention of youth in this thread, but every year players emerge to fill new roles around the league. Larkin, Mantha, AA, all emerged as dynamic players pretty much out of the gate. I'm looking forward to seeing what player or what combination of players emerge from the Calder Cup team to add a new element to our lineup.

Svechnikov, Bertuzzi and Nosek if he was still here, have few obstacles towards climbing the depth chart.

Green is still maturing and has started to look like a real leader. Going into FA he could have a revelatory year.

Dekeyser is hopefully in some sort of summer conditioning program to mend his waning athleticism. The coach might realize Abdelkaders on the team next year. Maybe Nyquist has grown up over the off season

The Red Wings are not a good team, and are not trending in a positive direction, but in the modern NHL, it's nearly impossible to not be a couple positive developments away from the playoffs.
Problem is for us, the likes of Eichel, Matthews, Nylander, Marner, Barkov, Ekblad, Pastranak, Werenski, etc. are all young players with room for growth and in some cases looking to bounce back after a injury-plagued seasons. Any improvements on our end have to be measured relative to what the rest of the division/conference is doing, and I don't see our (current) young talent eclipsing what a number of other teams are building. I think we stand to get worse before we get better.

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