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Marleau's recapture penalty? (mod: Toronto's cap situation)

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07-03-2017, 04:39 PM
  #1
Dustin
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Marleau's recapture penalty? (mod: Toronto's cap situation)

Wondering if anyone is an expert on the recapture penalty portion of the new CBA. If Marleau retires after 2 years would there be any penalty at all? While it is a over 35 contract it is only signed for 3 years.

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07-03-2017, 04:43 PM
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dechire
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Any 35+ contract longer than 1 season will bear the full cap hit for all of the years even if the player retires. The length of the contract doesn't matter. Whether it's 2 years or 6 years, if he retires early the cap hit still applies.

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07-03-2017, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by dechire View Post
Any 35+ contract longer than 1 season will bear the full cap hit for all of the years even if the player retires. The length of the contract doesn't matter. Whether it's 2 years or 6 years, if he retires early the cap hit still applies.
Thanks. Can you point to a site where I can read that from the CBA?

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07-03-2017, 05:02 PM
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dechire
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Originally Posted by Dustin View Post
Thanks. Can you point to a site where I can read that from the CBA?
It's a bit complicated but I believe this is the relevant passage:

Quote:
Article 50.5
(B) From the day following the last day of Training Camp until and
including June 30 of each League Year, "Averaged Club Salary"
for each Club shall be calculated as the sum of the following
amounts:
(5) All Player Salary and Bonuses earned in a League Year by
a Player who is in the second or later year of a multi-year
SPC which was signed when the Player was age 35 or older
(as of June 30 prior to the League Year in which the SPC is
to be effective), but which Player is not on the Club's
Active Roster, Injured Reserve, Injured Non-Roster or
Non-Roster, and regardless of whether, or where, the
Player is playing
, except to the extent the Player is playing
under his SPC in the minor leagues, in which case only the
Player Salary and Bonuses in excess of $100,000 shall
count towards the calculation of Averaged Club Salary;
plus

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07-03-2017, 05:30 PM
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Dustin
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Originally Posted by dechire View Post
It's a bit complicated but I believe this is the relevant passage:
Thank you very much. So wouldn't this mean that in his final year the Leafs would be held accountable for the full cap hit for that one year only? So the Leafs would be on the line for $6.5 on his last year. And that would only be if he decided to retire.

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07-03-2017, 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Dustin View Post
Wondering if anyone is an expert on the recapture penalty portion of the new CBA. If Marleau retires after 2 years would there be any penalty at all? While it is a over 35 contract it is only signed for 3 years.
There is no Recapture Penalty for any contracts signed in 2013 and after. Only contracts signed before the 2013 CBA went into effect are subject to Recapture.

As dechire correctly notes, Marleau is an Age 35+ contract so his cap hit remains in effect all three years regardless of whether he's playing or even being paid. Even if Marleau's contract were bought out in year 3 his $6.5m cap hit would remain in effect for that 3rd season.

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07-03-2017, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by mouser View Post
There is no Recapture Penalty for any contracts signed in 2013 and after. Only contracts signed before the 2013 CBA went into effect are subject to Recapture.

As dechire correctly notes, Marleau is an Age 35+ contract so his cap hit remains in effect all three years regardless of whether he's playing or even being paid. Even if Marleau's contract were bought out in year 3 his $6.5m cap hit would remain in effect for that 3rd season.
Thanks Mouser and Dechire. This is exactly the info I was looking for. Much appreciated.

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07-03-2017, 07:26 PM
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But it's important to remember that there is no cap hit on Robidas Island. Were Marleau to be unable to play that final season, the cap hit wouldn't matter as he would be able to live quietly on Robidas Island.

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07-03-2017, 10:52 PM
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Nobody retire anymore they get "skin rash".

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07-04-2017, 07:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dustin View Post
Thanks. Can you point to a site where I can read that from the CBA?
Btw, if you are bored and wanna read more...

http://www.nhl.com/nhl/en/v3/ext/CBA...A_2013_CBA.pdf

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07-06-2017, 03:47 AM
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Originally Posted by TheFinalWord View Post
But it's important to remember that there is no cap hit on Robidas Island. Were Marleau to be unable to play that final season, the cap hit wouldn't matter as he would be able to live quietly on Robidas Island.
Oh but there is. The cap hit of a player in LTIR initially hits the team Cap all the same; it's just that the team gets to exceed the regular Cap Ceiling to accommodate for the injured player being unavailable. TOR is already up for some Cap manoeuvring due to that when the season begins because of Horton and Lupul.

There is an amount of hassle in keeping the LTIR salaries in the books, and getting the full relief for the amount to your active roster Cap. One does not simply live on the Robidas Island without popping on the mainland yearly for the stamping of the passport and the renewal of the visa.

CBA 50.10, and (d) therewith specifically about the "replacement player(s)" salary exception.


Last edited by Lempo: 07-06-2017 at 04:02 AM.
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07-06-2017, 05:46 AM
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Oh but there is. The cap hit of a player in LTIR initially hits the team Cap all the same; it's just that the team gets to exceed the regular Cap Ceiling to accommodate for the injured player being unavailable. TOR is already up for some Cap manoeuvring due to that when the season begins because of Horton and Lupul.

There is an amount of hassle in keeping the LTIR salaries in the books, and getting the full relief for the amount to your active roster Cap. One does not simply live on the Robidas Island without popping on the mainland yearly for the stamping of the passport and the renewal of the visa.

CBA 50.10, and (d) therewith specifically about the "replacement player(s)" salary exception.
Could you explain that in more detail for me? It's my understanding that, like you said befor season starts all contracts count against the cap. However, I understand that contracts came be put on ltir (actually soir) but it effects how much relief the team gets in the season

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07-06-2017, 06:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Jackie Treehorn View Post
Could you explain that in more detail for me? It's my understanding that, like you said befor season starts all contracts count against the cap. However, I understand that contracts came be put on ltir (actually soir) but it effects how much relief the team gets in the season
Um, I can't because I don't really understand half of it myself. But, CapFriendly has put it quite understandably in their LTIR FAQ I believe:

https://www.capfriendly.com/ltir-faq

SBNation has their go at:

https://www.fearthefin.com/2010/9/18...ng-term-injury

The CBA has its wording go towards the replacement player(s) and their salary rather than the player in LTIR which way it is explained in the CapFriendly FAQ. I don't know if the team has to specifically name who of the roster are the "replacement player(s)" whose salary can exceed the Upper Limit.

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07-06-2017, 06:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Lempo View Post
Um, I can't because I don't really understand half of it myself. But, CapFriendly has put it quite understandably in their LTIR FAQ I believe:

https://www.capfriendly.com/ltir-faq

SBNation has their go at:

https://www.fearthefin.com/2010/9/18...ng-term-injury

The CBA has its wording go towards the replacement player(s) and their salary rather than the player in LTIR which way it is explained in the CapFriendly FAQ. I don't know if the team has to specifically name who of the roster are the "replacement player(s)" whose salary can exceed the Upper Limit.
Thanks man, I'm still not sure on the whole training camp injury thing

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07-06-2017, 09:26 AM
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Here are some simple illustrations of the cap relief a team can get by putting a player on LTIR before or after the start of the season. Unless the numbers align perfectly, teams will usually only get a portion of the LTIR exception player's contract in cap relief.

A) Cap is $75m, Team A has a payroll of $76m and an LTIR-eligible player with a $5m contract. If the team exercises the LTIR exception on the last day of training camp then the team will be allowed to maintain a cap of up to $76m in the season. The team has only gained $1m of cap relief on the $5m contract.

B) Cap is $75m, Team A has a payroll of $76m and an LTIR-eligible player with a $5m contract. The team is able to make moves at the end of training camp to reduce their cap to $74m for opening day. On day 1 the team exercises the LTIR exception and is now allowed to maintain a cap of up to $79m in the season. The team gained $4m of cap relief on the $5m contract.

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07-06-2017, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by mouser View Post
Here are some simple illustrations of the cap relief a team can get by putting a player on LTIR before or after the start of the season. Unless the numbers align perfectly, teams will usually only get a portion of the LTIR exception player's contract in cap relief.

A) Cap is $75m, Team A has a payroll of $76m and an LTIR-eligible player with a $5m contract. If the team exercises the LTIR exception on the last day of training camp then the team will be allowed to maintain a cap of up to $76m in the season. The team has only gained $1m of cap relief on the $5m contract.

B) Cap is $75m, Team A has a payroll of $76m and an LTIR-eligible player with a $5m contract. The team is able to make moves at the end of training camp to reduce their cap to $74m for opening day. On day 1 the team exercises the LTIR exception and is now allowed to maintain a cap of up to $79m in the season. The team gained $4m of cap relief on the $5m contract.
So in the leafs case, they could concievably send down some player who do not need to pass thru waivers, set their roster then on day 1 of season ltir Clarkson and lupul and bring back up the guys they sent down. They could then go well over the $75 million cap. The only hang up for them is the constant pushing of bonuses to the next year.
I'm not that familiar with their specific situation, so can they do they get to day 1 of season and still sign everyone they need to?

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07-06-2017, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Jackie Treehorn View Post
So in the leafs case, they could concievably send down some player who do not need to pass thru waivers, set their roster then on day 1 of season ltir Clarkson and lupul and bring back up the guys they sent down. They could then go well over the $75 million cap. The only hang up for them is the constant pushing of bonuses to the next year.
I'm not that familiar with their specific situation, so can they do they get to day 1 of season and still sign everyone they need to?
They got three waiver-exempt guys on the roster currently, care to guess the names?

On the other hand, Matthews' Marlies jersey sales would probably pay for the performance bonuses of all three.

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07-06-2017, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Jackie Treehorn View Post
So in the leafs case, they could concievably send down some player who do not need to pass thru waivers, set their roster then on day 1 of season ltir Clarkson and lupul and bring back up the guys they sent down. They could then go well over the $75 million cap. The only hang up for them is the constant pushing of bonuses to the next year.
I'm not that familiar with their specific situation, so can they do they get to day 1 of season and still sign everyone they need to?
I believe the Leafs need to make a move before they can re-sign Brown.

Setting that aside for the moment, if they didn't have to sign Brown, or could wait until the regular season, I'd guess the Leafs current plan would be to LTIR Lupul on the last day of training camp, then LTIR Horton when the regular season starts.

If they did that with the current CF projected cap of $78.9m ($3.9m over):
- Lupul LTIR in training camp covers the $3.9m over. Can have a max cap of $78.9m.
- Horton LTIR on day 1 would give the Leafs the full 100% relief because they're maxed out at the cap. So could have a cap total up to $84.2m.

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07-06-2017, 08:56 PM
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I believe the Leafs need to make a move before they can re-sign Brown.

Setting that aside for the moment, if they didn't have to sign Brown, or could wait until the regular season, I'd guess the Leafs current plan would be to LTIR Lupul on the last day of training camp, then LTIR Horton when the regular season starts.

If they did that with the current CF projected cap of $78.9m ($3.9m over):
- Lupul LTIR in training camp covers the $3.9m over. Can have a max cap of $78.9m.
- Horton LTIR on day 1 would give the Leafs the full 100% relief because they're maxed out at the cap. So could have a cap total up to $84.2m.
So would they be handcuffed from making deadline deals?


Would they have to even out salary on any trades made at the deadline. I know that's probably simplistic, but since their only 3 waiver eligible players are MNM, I don't see them playing the send down card.

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07-06-2017, 09:24 PM
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So would they be handcuffed from making deadline deals?


Would they have to even out salary on any trades made at the deadline. I know that's probably simplistic, but since their only 3 waiver eligible players are MNM, I don't see them playing the send down card.
Under my hypothetical scenario they'd have all of Horton's $5.3m cap hit available as an LTIR exception through the season and at the deadline. If they made no other roster changes all season they'd have room to take on a $5.3m contract at the trade deadline.

However it's not realistic to make no roster changes all season, injuries happen. And my hypothetical scenario doesn't account for unsigned RFA Connor Brown, which also isn't realistic.

In short I'd say, it's really complicated. The different moves Toronto could make between now and the start of the regular season could swing the cap situation and LTIR math all over the place.

Weirdly, the way the Leafs cap situation looks now, they might be better off holding onto both Lupul and Horton for LTIR even though the two are hurting their off-season cap. As I put in my earlier scenario the Leafs could get much more cap relief from a 1-2 LTIR punch of Lupul/Horton then they'd get from trading one away and LTIRing the other.

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07-07-2017, 01:42 PM
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I believe the Leafs need to make a move before they can re-sign Brown.

Setting that aside for the moment, if they didn't have to sign Brown, or could wait until the regular season, I'd guess the Leafs current plan would be to LTIR Lupul on the last day of training camp, then LTIR Horton when the regular season starts.

If they did that with the current CF projected cap of $78.9m ($3.9m over):
- Lupul LTIR in training camp covers the $3.9m over. Can have a max cap of $78.9m.
- Horton LTIR on day 1 would give the Leafs the full 100% relief because they're maxed out at the cap. So could have a cap total up to $84.2m.
Ok, I think I'm following. Ideally they'd like to get to day one of season with no ltir, but that sounds unlikely barring a move. The only real downside to putting lupul on ltir before season begins is they cant replace his full salary in season.
From a longer term perspective, they are back into forwarding bonuses to next year almost guaranteed, because they'd be starting the season with no cap space and ltir cant be used for bonuses. Or they could put some guys that don't need to pass through waivers down, and then bring them back up. i wonder what the ramifications of that would be?
say the sent Marner, Matthews and Nylander down for day one, would that affect their pay they recieve, which i would assume would be the drawback.

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07-07-2017, 03:03 PM
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There is no Recapture Penalty for any contracts signed in 2013 and after. Only contracts signed before the 2013 CBA went into effect are subject to Recapture.

As dechire correctly notes, Marleau is an Age 35+ contract so his cap hit remains in effect all three years regardless of whether he's playing or even being paid. Even if Marleau's contract were bought out in year 3 his $6.5m cap hit would remain in effect for that 3rd season.
There isn't... but if he gets traded on July 2nd after the bonus is paid in that 3rd year, and then when he's due to earn 1.25m, he retires from his new team (FLA, ARI, etc), they absolutely should implement some sort of recapture.

GMs need to be held accountable to ensure that they're only signing contracts that both sides plan on fulfilling to its' entirety. And this contract (much like some of the absurdly long ones from the old CBA) just screams of one that won't be played out for all 3 seasons.

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07-07-2017, 03:08 PM
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But it's important to remember that there is no cap hit on Robidas Island. Were Marleau to be unable to play that final season, the cap hit wouldn't matter as he would be able to live quietly on Robidas Island.
Something else that should probably be looked at - although we all know it never will be. I had no issues with Pronger or Dupuis or Savard spending years on LTIR. We all knew they were injured to the point where they could not play professionally again. That's fine, that's what it's there for. And I haven't looked at Robidas's case enough to comment on it, so I'll leave it. But Hossa "developing an allergy" to his equipment? Common. And I'm sure we'll see more examples of "allergies" in the coming years to handle getting around stupid contracts.

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07-07-2017, 03:15 PM
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Could you explain that in more detail for me? It's my understanding that, like you said befor season starts all contracts count against the cap. However, I understand that contracts came be put on ltir (actually soir) but it effects how much relief the team gets in the season
The biggest difference is how that cap space gets used. A team with 1m of cap space (using 74m of a 75m cap) can at the trade deadline acquire a player with roughly a 4m cap hit, and still be cap compliant under a 75m cap. With retention that number can get even higher.

A team using LTIR space who has 1m in cap space (say 77m of 78m limit), can at the deadline only acquire a player who's total yearly cap hit is 1m, as they have to count the entirety of the contract. If they can free up more space, great, but they don't get the benefit of how the contracts prorate if they were under the actual cap vs using LTIR space.

So yes there are drawbacks to having to use LTIR space - especially over a prolonged period. This is why we saw Boston and Philly trade Pronger and Savard's contracts. It wasn't because they didn't want to pay them (their salary was peanuts), it was because them being on the roster was negatively impacting the team throughout the season and was going to continue to do so for several years.

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07-07-2017, 03:18 PM
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Nobody retire anymore they get "skin rash".
This exactly. Everything else is a moot point.

Marleau will come down with a vicious case of gingivitis and will be forced to live out his days on the disabled list.

Leafs will bury every one that doesn't need to clear waivers at the beginning of the year in the minors. Call them up the day after.

Then wam bam thank you mam.. cap circumvented.

Leafs are just the example. Every team has and will do it that can afford it.

I'm expecting the Oilers to diagnose Lucic with the worst case of mosquito bites known to exist in his last year or two.

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