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2017-18 Roster Thread II - Yay for Summer!

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Old
07-17-2017, 12:42 PM
  #126
Exit Dose
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For the life of me I cannot understand why suddenly so many people want to trade Cogliano.

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07-17-2017, 01:19 PM
  #127
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For the life of me I cannot understand why suddenly so many people want to trade Cogliano.
yeah I don't get the desire to trade him either. I was worried he was going to be a cap casualty when the offseason started, but now that we have the cap space, there's zero reason to trade him. Even if we don't plan on re-signing him, he's the type of player you keep for a cup/playoff run.

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07-17-2017, 01:58 PM
  #128
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For the life of me I cannot understand why suddenly so many people want to trade Cogliano.
I don't think it has anything to do with him, rather than where he is playing and what the production should be in that role. Cogliano has shown great chemistry with Silf/Kesler and that's why he's in a top 6 role. Cogliano is a 3rd line player playing in a 2nd line role. He can get away with that in the regular season, but in the postseason, it just doesn't cut it. The Hagelin experiment shows BM has wanted to replace Cogs for a while. Unfortunately, for whatever the reason was, that didn't work out. It's been a hands off experience since then as we have been trying to piece together other parts of the roster and the chemistry they had. Moving forward though, we have Rakell, Eaves, Perry, Silf, Kase, Ritchie, Wagner and the possibility of Kerdiles, Jones, Roy, etc., fighting for wings on the roster (excluding Rasmussen, Grant, Shaw since they are basically 4th line exclusive players). There's a lot of guys fighting for a spot in the top 9 and not a lot of room for them.

We're not judging our players by regular season any longer, since we have the goal of a Stanley Cup. Looking at postseason play, he's the likely candidate to get replaced out of the consistent guys we've had out there. He does add a PK presence and a hold the lead late ability as well, but again, he's got a spot on the 2nd line and needs to produce as such. He holds value now since he's a FA after the season and there would be several teams looking for what he has to offer. I don't believe we should trade him unless we know who we are getting in return will work with Kes/Silf. Which is why he might be a trade deadline candidate to move, even if we are in the running for a cup. If a guy like Kerdiles can come in and play competently with that line, then we could move Cogs to a team to fill a need we have (currently the 3C spot. Spooner?). With the competition we have, Cogs is most likely the guy who is fighting for a spot come preseason.

I don't see us putting Rakell at C, so look at the lines...

Rakell, Getz, Eaves
____, Kesler, Silf
Ritchie, Steel/Vermette, Perry
Wagner, Grant/Rasmussen, Rasmussen/Shaw

As the lines show, Kase, Kerdiles and Jones would be pushing Cogs for the spot. I don't think for 1 minute they'd play Cogs over Ritchie should they want to try someone else on Kesler's line, so he'd be on the 4th pairing. Wagner is a good defensive player and can score the chippy goal, so he would be adding what Cogs does basically (if Cogs was relegated to the 4th line). I'm not writing Cogs off as of yet, but don't be shocked if/when we are pushing him for his spot. If someone is able to fill his spot, I wouldn't be surprised if he's shipped out.

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07-17-2017, 02:08 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by Crosbysux View Post
I don't think it has anything to do with him, rather than where he is playing and what the production should be in that role. Cogliano has shown great chemistry with Silf/Kesler and that's why he's in a top 6 role. Cogliano is a 3rd line player playing in a 2nd line role. He can get away with that in the regular season, but in the postseason, it just doesn't cut it. The Hagelin experiment shows BM has wanted to replace Cogs for a while. Unfortunately, for whatever the reason was, that didn't work out. It's been a hands off experience since then as we have been trying to piece together other parts of the roster and the chemistry they had. Moving forward though, we have Rakell, Eaves, Perry, Silf, Kase, Ritchie, Wagner and the possibility of Kerdiles, Jones, Roy, etc., fighting for wings on the roster (excluding Rasmussen, Grant, Shaw since they are basically 4th line exclusive players). There's a lot of guys fighting for a spot in the top 9 and not a lot of room for them.

We're not judging our players by regular season any longer, since we have the goal of a Stanley Cup. Looking at postseason play, he's the likely candidate to get replaced out of the consistent guys we've had out there. He does add a PK presence and a hold the lead late ability as well, but again, he's got a spot on the 2nd line and needs to produce as such. He holds value now since he's a FA after the season and there would be several teams looking for what he has to offer. I don't believe we should trade him unless we know who we are getting in return will work with Kes/Silf. Which is why he might be a trade deadline candidate to move, even if we are in the running for a cup. If a guy like Kerdiles can come in and play competently with that line, then we could move Cogs to a team to fill a need we have (currently the 3C spot. Spooner?). With the competition we have, Cogs is most likely the guy who is fighting for a spot come preseason.

I don't see us putting Rakell at C, so look at the lines...

Rakell, Getz, Eaves
____, Kesler, Silf
Ritchie, Steel/Vermette, Perry
Wagner, Grant/Rasmussen, Rasmussen/Shaw

As the lines show, Kase, Kerdiles and Jones would be pushing Cogs for the spot. I don't think for 1 minute they'd play Cogs over Ritchie should they want to try someone else on Kesler's line, so he'd be on the 4th pairing. Wagner is a good defensive player and can score the chippy goal, so he would be adding what Cogs does basically (if Cogs was relegated to the 4th line). I'm not writing Cogs off as of yet, but don't be shocked if/when we are pushing him for his spot. If someone is able to fill his spot, I wouldn't be surprised if he's shipped out.
As of yet neither Kase or Kerdiles have shown anything close to being able to push cogs out of the lineup. And Jones had one good development camp scrimmage. I see no reason why Cogs would need to be shipped anywhere, especially when he can play on line 2-4 without much issue.

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07-17-2017, 02:22 PM
  #130
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As of yet neither Kase or Kerdiles have shown anything close to being able to push cogs out of the lineup. And Jones had one good development camp scrimmage. I see no reason why Cogs would need to be shipped anywhere, especially when he can play on line 2-4 without much issue.
Kase also had twice as many goals in about half the number of games in the postseason... It's not about what they have shown, but they players they CAN become. Obviously they haven't "shown" they are those players. They are both young guys primed to become top 6-9 players. It's also why I said Cogs wouldn't be shipped out unless we see that a guy is ready.

Kerdiles is also another guy who has shown a lot in the AHL. He was by far their best forward in the playoffs. He started the year as a shutdown player and they moved him into a scoring spot, where he flourished. His sample size was small last year in Anaheim. He looked good in his regular season game and got 4 games of playoff experience. He looked a little overwhelmed the first couple games, but got better as he got more time. That's a very good indication he is ready for NHL duty. It's basically expected that if you jump into the WCF w/basically no time in the NHL you are going to struggle. But being able to get better in such a short time shows he has the skills to compete in the NHL. Not saying it's going to be top 9 right away, but he has that ability.

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07-17-2017, 02:57 PM
  #131
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Kase, Kerdiles, Wagner, and Jones? That is some hot nonsense. None of those people have come close to showing the defensive prowess that Cogs has, and Ritchie is the only one to come close offensively. Kesler only had one goal in the playoffs, are we replacing him, too?

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07-17-2017, 03:28 PM
  #132
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Kase does deserve a chance at more minutes in a scoring role but he wouldn't be replacing Cogs. If Perry isn't training his ass off this summer I'd give some of his minutes to Kase next year and see what he does

The kid showed some really good things last year, even in the playoffs

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07-17-2017, 03:29 PM
  #133
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For the life of me I cannot understand why suddenly so many people want to trade Cogliano.
The SoCal heatwave of July has hit HF hard. It's manifesting itself all over HF Ducks.

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07-17-2017, 03:38 PM
  #134
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For the life of me I cannot understand why suddenly so many people want to trade Cogliano.
Ditto.

Not every player is going to be a star. Players like Cogliano make you better.

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07-17-2017, 03:44 PM
  #135
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Kase does deserve a chance at more minutes in a scoring role but he wouldn't be replacing Cogs. If Perry isn't training his ass off this summer I'd give some of his minutes to Kase next year and see what he does

The kid showed some really good things last year, even in the playoffs
The question for Kase is where do we find room to play him in the top 9? Rakell, Silf, Perry, Eaves, Ritchie and Cogs are all in his way. Barring injury, you have to move one of those guys to find a spot for him to play.

Perry is an easy scapegoat right now. But he was still our 3rd highest scoring player.

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07-17-2017, 04:06 PM
  #136
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For the life of me I cannot understand why suddenly so many people want to trade Cogliano.
I don't want to trade him i just don't want him in our top 6 for another year, personally

If we had a better 3c i wouldn't care to much about the wings.

Like I think if we were stronger there, having players like Kase/Kerdiles/Jones etc on the roster wouldn't be a huge concern.

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07-17-2017, 04:06 PM
  #137
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The question for Kase is where do we find room to play him in the top 9? Rakell, Silf, Perry, Eaves, Ritchie and Cogs are all in his way. Barring injury, you have to move one of those guys to find a spot for him to play.

Perry is an easy scapegoat right now. But he was still our 3rd highest scoring player.
Well this is why I wasn't a huge fan of bringing Eaves back for 3 years. But with Kesler out for the first 1-2 months and Rakell likely playing 2C it opens up a spot for Kase to show what he's got in a bigger role early in the season

Eaves-Getzlaf-Kase
Ritchie-Rakell-Perry
Cogs-Vermette-Silfverberg (poor Silf and Cogs )

Although I can also see an argument that Kesler being out is a good opportunity to see how deadly Silfverberg's shot would be with Getzlaf setting him up

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07-17-2017, 05:10 PM
  #138
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I don't think it has anything to do with him, rather than where he is playing and what the production should be in that role. Cogliano has shown great chemistry with Silf/Kesler and that's why he's in a top 6 role. Cogliano is a 3rd line player playing in a 2nd line role. He can get away with that in the regular season, but in the postseason, it just doesn't cut it. .
If you're citing offensive production in the playoffs as reasoning for him to be moved, then you should be just as harsh on Kesler. That line's primary responsibility is to shutdown other teams top line. We need more offense from them, yes, but if you're going to cite lack of offense in the playoffs as a reason Cogs should be somewhat expendable, then you need to be just as hard on Kesler.

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The Hagelin experiment shows BM has wanted to replace Cogs for a while. Unfortunately, for whatever the reason was, that didn't work out. It's been a hands off experience since then as we have been trying to piece together other parts of the roster and the chemistry they had. .
IMO, Hagelin's addition had nothing to do with Cogliano at all. Hagelin was added because of Murray's (hopefully former) mindset of: "I add the players and let the coach figure out what to do with them." He just didn't replace the goal scoring wingers he let go with the right type of player. He rectified that by moving Hags for a better fit in Perron. If Hags was brought in to replace Cogs, he'd still be here IMO.

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Moving forward though, we have Rakell, Eaves, Perry, Silf, Kase, Ritchie, Wagner and the possibility of Kerdiles, Jones, Roy, etc., fighting for wings on the roster (excluding Rasmussen, Grant, Shaw since they are basically 4th line exclusive players). There's a lot of guys fighting for a spot in the top 9 and not a lot of room for them. .
None of these players have shown remote capability to fulfill Cogliano s role. Yes, Kase has shown flashes, but he was not very good defensively. He's not going to be trusted to face the opposing team's best players each night. The other options mentioned here have not proven to be NHL players, let alone players who can handle the other teams top players. It's one thing to be NHL ready, it's another to be able to handle that type of responsibility.

I think those players are competing for spots on the 4th line and one spot on the line with Rakell and Perry. Not the shutdown line.

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We're not judging our players by regular season any longer, since we have the goal of a Stanley Cup. Looking at postseason play, he's the likely candidate to get replaced out of the consistent guys we've had out there. He does add a PK presence and a hold the lead late ability as well, but again, he's got a spot on the 2nd line and needs to produce as such. He holds value now since he's a FA after the season and there would be several teams looking for what he has to offer. I don't believe we should trade him unless we know who we are getting in return will work with Kes/Silf. Which is why he might be a trade deadline candidate to move, even if we are in the running for a cup. .
How do you know even know if this is possible before you bring them in?

I don't see him moving at the deadline either. Unless he's just beat out by another player for that spot (extremely doubtful IMO), you don't mess with chemistry at the deadline before a cup/playoff run.

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If a guy like Kerdiles can come in and play competently with that line, then we could move Cogs to a team to fill a need we have (currently the 3C spot. Spooner?). With the competition we have, Cogs is most likely the guy who is fighting for a spot come preseason.

I don't see us putting Rakell at C, so look at the lines...

Rakell, Getz, Eaves
____, Kesler, Silf
Ritchie, Steel/Vermette, Perry
Wagner, Grant/Rasmussen, Rasmussen/Shaw

As the lines show, Kase, Kerdiles and Jones would be pushing Cogs for the spot. I don't think for 1 minute they'd play Cogs over Ritchie should they want to try someone else on Kesler's line, so he'd be on the 4th pairing. Wagner is a good defensive player and can score the chippy goal, so he would be adding what Cogs does basically (if Cogs was relegated to the 4th line). I'm not writing Cogs off as of yet, but don't be shocked if/when we are pushing him for his spot. If someone is able to fill his spot, I wouldn't be surprised if he's shipped out.
If one of those guys outperforms Cogs in that role, sure. However, we have the most pro shutdown line coach in the league. I don't see him trusting one of these young players with that responsibility. I think the "___" on the roster is on that 3rd line, not the shutdown line personally.



Before the offseason began, I was a bit worried that Cogs would be a cap casualty. I thought he may get dealt for a pick, then Murray would sign someone cheaper like Winnik to replace him. Now that he cleared salary in other ways (smart move by Murray), that shouldn't happen. I do think he could be odd man out and not get re-signed next year. However, you still don't trade a player like Cogs before a playoff run. You need more guys like him, not less. I hope we find a way to re-sign Cogs, but I do think he's odd man out next offseason due to probably deserving a raise. I would rather lose him to free agency then trade him for a 2nd rounder.

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07-17-2017, 05:19 PM
  #139
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I'm also pretty interested to see what happens with our 4th line. Considering that we don't use it much, we just signed almost 2 full lines worth of 4th line players. There will be a log jam for that line. I wonder if it's a sign that we will be playing our 4th line more this year?

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07-17-2017, 05:34 PM
  #140
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Trading Cogliano is a mental exercise from people who can't think in terms of anything other than points.

He sets an example, both in terms of taking care of his body and bringing 100% every game. Defensively, he makes up for what he lacks offensively - doubtful Kesler comes anywhere close to a Selke nomination without Cogs and Silf. PK, he's one of our best wing options - would much rather have Cogs out on PK than, say, Perry.

Kesler's line gets a lot of minutes because they tend to match up against the best line on the other team - they're not necessarily being depended on to get a lot of points, but let's be realistic: Cogs put up 16 goals last year, Silf 23, and Kesler put up 58 points. They're not an offensive liability. While Kes and Cogs slacked off a bit in the playoffs, Silf put up 14 points (9 goals) in 17 games.

This.

Line.

Is.

Fine.

Quit trying to screw with it.

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07-17-2017, 06:33 PM
  #141
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Trading Cogliano is a mental exercise from people who can't think in terms of anything other than points.

He sets an example, both in terms of taking care of his body and bringing 100% every game. Defensively, he makes up for what he lacks offensively - doubtful Kesler comes anywhere close to a Selke nomination without Cogs and Silf. PK, he's one of our best wing options - would much rather have Cogs out on PK than, say, Perry.

Kesler's line gets a lot of minutes because they tend to match up against the best line on the other team - they're not necessarily being depended on to get a lot of points, but let's be realistic: Cogs put up 16 goals last year, Silf 23, and Kesler put up 58 points. They're not an offensive liability. While Kes and Cogs slacked off a bit in the playoffs, Silf put up 14 points (9 goals) in 17 games.

This.

Line.

Is.

Fine.

Quit trying to screw with it.
It's fine until the playoffs, then Cogliano produces next to no offense, with this line playing alot of minutes. You can't really have him there with this roster in its current state

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07-17-2017, 07:09 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by KEEROLE Vatanen View Post
It's fine until the playoffs, then Cogliano produces next to no offense, with this line playing alot of minutes. You can't really have him there with this roster in its current state
We didn't lose for lack of offense, though.

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07-17-2017, 07:21 PM
  #143
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It's fine until the playoffs, then Cogliano produces next to no offense, with this line playing alot of minutes. You can't really have him there with this roster in its current state
24 points in 60 playoff games isn't next to no offense. It's just not top 6 quality offensive production.
Cogliano - Kesler - Silfverberg is a fine line for matching up against opponents better lines. It was our best line for a good amount of time during the season. If we replace Cogliano with someone better offensively but not as good defensively then the line wouldn't be as good at reducing the damage another teams scoring lines can do.
We have done well as a team with that line why break it up?

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07-17-2017, 07:24 PM
  #144
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Kesler and Silf drive that line, come on we all know that

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07-17-2017, 07:37 PM
  #145
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Kesler and Silf drive that line, come on we all know that
Offensively, sure. Defensively, Cogs is just as important as Kes and Silf.

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07-17-2017, 07:51 PM
  #146
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Cogs is far better than kase on set but kase is far better than cogs on off and i think kase is going to make a solid step forward. Overall I'd say cogs was clearly better than kase last year but this year I expect them to be about even and cogs make 2.3m more than kase so if we are looking to bring in a high level LW moving cogs over kase is the clear move. Kesler and silf can be a very productive line with a good lw like it was with belesky and still be a great line defensively. You can argue it could be our best line offensively and defensively with the right lw. If love to keep cogs and upgrade lw but the cost savings of kase and his youth makes him the guy I would prefer to keep.

I'd still love to get a 3c over a lw but if we can't find a good fit at c I would at least look at who we could get at lw.

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07-17-2017, 08:11 PM
  #147
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Kesler and Silf drive that line, come on we all know that
Cogs is a important part for why that line is as good defensively as it is.

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Cogs is far better than kase on set but kase is far better than cogs on off and i think kase is going to make a solid step forward. Overall I'd say cogs was clearly better than kase last year but this year I expect them to be about even and cogs make 2.3m more than kase so if we are looking to bring in a high level LW moving cogs over kase is the clear move. Kesler and silf can be a very productive line with a good lw like it was with belesky and still be a great line defensively. You can argue it could be our best line offensively and defensively with the right lw. If love to keep cogs and upgrade lw but the cost savings of kase and his youth makes him the guy I would prefer to keep.

I'd still love to get a 3c over a lw but if we can't find a good fit at c I would at least look at who we could get at lw.
No he is not. Kase has potential to be better offensively in the future but he isn't there yet.

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07-17-2017, 08:11 PM
  #148
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Originally Posted by KEEROLE Vatanen View Post
Kesler and Silf drive that line, come on we all know that
I couldn't disagree more. That line does best when there's a strong forechecking player forcing the defensemen to make hurried decisions (and, more to the point, mistakes), and then Silfverberg and Kesler are adept at being in the right places to cut off rushes and intercept passes. Cogliano provides that forecheck with his speed and smarts.

None of the youths being talked about as his replacement are remotely capable of providing what he does inthat role at this point in their careers.

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07-17-2017, 08:34 PM
  #149
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I couldn't disagree more. That line does best when there's a strong forechecking player forcing the defensemen to make hurried decisions (and, more to the point, mistakes), and then Silfverberg and Kesler are adept at being in the right places to cut off rushes and intercept passes. Cogliano provides that forecheck with his speed and smarts.

None of the youths being talked about as his replacement are remotely capable of providing what he does inthat role at this point in their careers.
It's not a perfect comparison, but Cogliano is the Kunitz of the Andy Mac and Selanne duo.

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07-17-2017, 09:09 PM
  #150
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Cogs is a important part for why that line is as good defensively as it is.



No he is not. Kase has potential to be better offensively in the future but he isn't there yet.
Cogs has basically zero offensive game outside of capitalizing on turnovers. Kase is much better at creating chances and it isn't close. Saying he is better than cogs offensively isn't really saying anything all:naughty and if he wasn't then he wouldn't be in the nhl.

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