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Hellebuyck Files for Arbitration

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Old
07-06-2017, 09:01 PM
  #51
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There is way too much being made of this. I would have been surprised if he didn't file for arb. It has nothing to with how much he's asking etc. It's just standard procedure for a player like him.

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07-06-2017, 09:45 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Guffman View Post
I would imagine that most goalies would have a great save % in games they won and a terrible save % in games they lost. I'm not sure why you think that's relevant.

Anyways, not expecting a big salary here at any rate given his numbers so this process is a big whatever to me.
Did Pavelec have a good save % in the games he won last year?
No.

Hellebuyck had a bunch of games with above average %
and a bunch well below.
He shouldn't have been in handful of the worst blowouts if the Jets had been able to put Hutch in instead. Helle had a terrible night; Jets are playing their 3rd in 4 days or 4th in 6 days and we left him in. This is during that stretch where there were a few pulls in a short period.

Confidence is a big thing in sports.
Reducing Hellebuyck's workload gives him a good chance to improve a lot on these numbers.

Playing a few less games last year would have improved his % slightly and he may have also rebounded quicker.

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07-06-2017, 11:09 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Aavco Cup View Post
There is way too much being made of this. I would have been surprised if he didn't file for arb. It has nothing to with how much he's asking etc. It's just standard procedure for a player like him.
A player like him being...

More ego than talent?

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07-06-2017, 11:11 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Zhamnov5GoalGame View Post
Did Pavelec have a good save % in the games he won last year?
No.

Hellebuyck had a bunch of games with above average %
and a bunch well below.
He shouldn't have been in handful of the worst blowouts if the Jets had been able to put Hutch in instead. Helle had a terrible night; Jets are playing their 3rd in 4 days or 4th in 6 days and we left him in. This is during that stretch where there were a few pulls in a short period.

Confidence is a big thing in sports.
Reducing Hellebuyck's workload gives him a good chance to improve a lot on these numbers.

Playing a few less games last year would have improved his % slightly and he may have also rebounded quicker.
Hutchinson's save percentage in wins: .939.

I don't think that's significant. If you have a high save percentage in a game, you're allowing less goals and will probably have a win as a result. Nothing mystical about this. Not sure why you raised that metric for Hellebuyck.

Now, if you want to make the argument that Hellebuyck's numbers would have been better if he wasn't forced to play as many games...ok. I'm fine with that. Should be rectified this year.

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07-06-2017, 11:21 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Ippenator View Post
Honestly after the season this guy had and now that he has after that the nerve to be doing something like this, I would dump him as soon as possible. I don't see him as a very talented goalie anyway. He might still fool some teams with his talent, so maybe a good trade for the Jets could be still made? Could some American team be made a sucker with believing in their homeboy?
Arbitration is relatively common nowadays. This means little at the end of the day, IMO.

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Originally Posted by Aavco Cup View Post
There is way too much being made of this. I would have been surprised if he didn't file for arb. It has nothing to with how much he's asking etc. It's just standard procedure for a player like him.
Exactly.

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07-07-2017, 12:00 AM
  #56
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Players that filed for arbitration...it is no big deal...if Helle didn't file then Chevy has the upper hand. Now, a deal has to be made by a certain day or they get a hearing and then they have to try to get a deal done before a decision is handed down.

Arizona Coyotes: Jordan Martinook

Boston Bruins: Ryan Spooner

Buffalo Sabres: Nathan Beaulieu, Johan Larsson, Robin Lehner

Calgary Flames: Micheal Ferland

Colorado Avalanche: Matt Nieto

Detroit Red Wings: Tomas Tatar

Edmonton Oilers: Joey LaLeggia

Los Angeles Kings: Kevin Gravel

Minnesota Wild: Mikael Granlund, Nino Niederreiter

Montreal Canadiens: Alex Galchenyuk (signed)

Nashville Predators: Viktor Arvidsson, Marek Mazanec, Austin Watson

New York Islanders: Calvin de Haan

New York Rangers: Jesper Fast (signed), Mika Zibanejad

Ottawa Senators: Ryan Dzingel, Jean-Gabriel Pageau

Pittsburgh Penguins: Brian Dumoulin, Conor Sheary

St. Louis Blues: Colton Parayko

Tampa Bay Lightning: Tyler Johnson, Ondrej Palat

Vancouver Canucks: Reid Boucher, Michael Chaput

Vegas Golden Knights: Nate Schmidt

Winnipeg Jets: Connor Hellebuyck

I think in some cases like the case of de Haan, I think he is eligible for UFA next year so this is more meaningful. If it goes to arbitration, he is an UFA next year.

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07-07-2017, 12:14 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by nobody important View Post
A player like him being...

More ego than talent?
If he doesn't file for arbitration he has no leverage and the Jets can basically tell him- take the the qualifying offer or stay home for the season

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07-07-2017, 12:17 AM
  #58
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Simply because he is not worth more at the moment.
Well you are in luck then! Determining how much a player is worth is exactly the job description of an arbitrator.

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07-07-2017, 07:46 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by nobody important View Post
A player like him being...

More ego than talent?
Has nothing to do with ego or talent actually. It has everything to do with leverage in bargaining. Arbitration is a very defined process and Helle can bring some statistics to the table. Games started, wins etc.

The fact that the Jets signed Mason is irrelevant to an arbitrator

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07-07-2017, 08:01 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Ippenator View Post
Simply because he is not worth more at the moment. If he seriously wants and gets a clear salary upgrade, it is time to make the deal that he will accept, and then get rid of him in a package with maybe Dano, and Matthias or some pick and get a more experienced goalie as the number two for Mason. No use to waste any time and money on Hellebuyck in that situation. If Hellebuyck would have settled for what the Jets were offering, then I would see any point in still keeping him and checking him out for at least a couple of years. But even then I would seriously think that the Jets should be actively searching for options to get a clearly more reliable number two than Hellebuyck is. I would like to be able to write more positively about Hellebuyck, but unfortunately I can't do it on the basis of what performances and weaknesses I have seen from him so far.

I will be happy though if he could even quickly prove me wrong and be a reliable goalie for the Jets. I just doubt very much that this will happen.
Have you ever negotiated on anything? It sure as hell doesn't go "either you agree with me on this one, or we simply cut the cord".

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07-07-2017, 08:10 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Maukkis View Post
Have you ever negotiated on anything? It sure as hell doesn't go "either you agree with me on this one, or we simply cut the cord".
Funny for you to ask. I work in a job where negotiating is exactly my main task on a daily basis. There are of course many ways how to approach negotiations. But if you have had as digusting season as Hellebuyck had, I would pretty much not bother negotiating for something which shouldn't be anyway too good, if his performance is really judged in the arbitration. He should in my opinion take as short as possible deal that the Jets are willing to offer him, bite his teeth together, and start playing in that way that in the next negotiation he will have real negotiating leverage. He is not right now doing it in the smartest way in my opinion. Although if he does not believe that he can really improve from what he is at the moment, then I could understand that he wants to get all the possible money out from the Jets at the moment.

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07-07-2017, 08:10 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Aavco Cup View Post
Has nothing to do with ego or talent actually. It has everything to do with leverage in bargaining. Arbitration is a very defined process and Helle can bring some statistics to the table. Games started, wins etc.

The fact that the Jets signed Mason is irrelevant to an arbitrator
It doesn't harm his case that he got some performance bonuses for being above league average on some stats that matter.

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07-07-2017, 08:49 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Ippenator View Post
(...) He should in my opinion take as short as possible deal that the Jets are willing to offer him, bite his teeth together, and start playing in that way that in the next negotiation he will have real negotiating leverage. He is not right now doing it in the smartest way in my opinion. (...)
You're not being realistic. Arbitration is one of the few tools that players on RFA's have to leverage teams - this was agreed to by the NHL and the NHLPA. He has every right to exercise his negotiated right, and this is becoming pretty standard fare with many RFA's now. It's happened a number of times with Jets players, in fact, and will probably happen again in future. Standard operating procedure.

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07-07-2017, 09:25 AM
  #64
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Goalie has to be the easiest position to arbitrate....It is so easy to get insane amounts of stats and compare it to other goalies....

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07-07-2017, 09:38 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by SCP Guy View Post
Goalie has to be the easiest position to arbitrate....It is so easy to get insane amounts of stats and compare it to other goalies....
Yo have to compare the stats to other goalie contracts in similar points in their career. Current Price and Lundquist are irrelevant. So are guys like Raanta. You need to look at what other goalies got in their first arbitration eligible contract.

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07-07-2017, 09:49 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Ippenator View Post
Funny for you to ask. I work in a job where negotiating is exactly my main task on a daily basis. There are of course many ways how to approach negotiations. But if you have had as digusting season as Hellebuyck had, I would pretty much not bother negotiating for something which shouldn't be anyway too good, if his performance is really judged in the arbitration. He should in my opinion take as short as possible deal that the Jets are willing to offer him, bite his teeth together, and start playing in that way that in the next negotiation he will have real negotiating leverage. He is not right now doing it in the smartest way in my opinion. Although if he does not believe that he can really improve from what he is at the moment, then I could understand that he wants to get all the possible money out from the Jets at the moment.
So, as a professional negotiator, your professional advice to one of the parties involved in the negotiating process is to not negotiate and simply take what he can get?

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07-07-2017, 09:52 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Holden Caulfield View Post
It is true that it is common for RFA's to elect arbitration. The issue here becomes whether he signs before the hearing or not. Nearly every single player that has actually gone to a hearing has found himself in a different uniform 1-2 years later. It's incredibly rare that a player stays in an organization once the hearing has happened. From what I understand the hearings are pretty brutal and it sours relationships pretty badly.

Luckily most players do end up signing before the hearings. It is nothing to be concerned about until the hearing occurs.
It's not right on point but yeah, how would you like to know what your employer REALLY thinks of you>

https://www.law.utoronto.ca/utfl_fil...ub%20Brief.pdf






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07-07-2017, 09:54 AM
  #68
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So, as a professional negotiator, your professional advice to one of the parties involved in the negotiating process is to not negotiate and simply take what he can get?
Lol, my thoughts exactly.

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07-07-2017, 10:46 AM
  #69
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I have no problem with Helle trying to get paid a competitive salary and no problem with Chevy trying to sign for what he feels is appropriate. This is certainly no big deal and all parties involved are professionals and understand this is just the business side of playing professional hockey. Just like Trouba last year sitting out, he did what he and his agent believed he needed to do.

He is not the last person that will do this and I think it could actually happen more often for the Jets in the years to come as we get closer to the cap in spending.

Also all the angst with Helle's season last year is a bit surprising. I believe that Mason and Helle could be a very strong tandem and give the Jets average goal tending and a realistic shot at some (more than 4) playoff games this coming season.

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07-07-2017, 10:56 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Huffer View Post
Lol, my thoughts exactly.
I just don't understand the protest. Why NOT deal through an arbitrator? All they do is come up with a solution to the contract dispute that's fair for everyone. I suppose that a negotiator might see the use of one as a failure to serve their client? Something's fishy.

But what do I know, I'm just an astronaut

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07-07-2017, 03:58 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Ippenator View Post
Funny for you to ask. I work in a job where negotiating is exactly my main task on a daily basis. There are of course many ways how to approach negotiations. But if you have had as digusting season as Hellebuyck had, I would pretty much not bother negotiating for something which shouldn't be anyway too good, if his performance is really judged in the arbitration. He should in my opinion take as short as possible deal that the Jets are willing to offer him, bite his teeth together, and start playing in that way that in the next negotiation he will have real negotiating leverage. He is not right now doing it in the smartest way in my opinion. Although if he does not believe that he can really improve from what he is at the moment, then I could understand that he wants to get all the possible money out from the Jets at the moment.
So your recommended approach to these negotiations would be biting the bullet and accepting the first deal that is given to you? If any agent entertained that idea for a second, they would be fired on the spot.

If anything, you should know why Hellebuyck chose to go through arbitration. He is using his leverage to get himself as favourable a contract as possible. I have no problem with that, and neither should anyone aware of how life works.

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07-07-2017, 05:38 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Maukkis View Post
So your recommended approach to these negotiations would be biting the bullet and accepting the first deal that is given to you? If any agent entertained that idea for a second, they would be fired on the spot.

If anything, you should know why Hellebuyck chose to go through arbitration. He is using his leverage to get himself as favourable a contract as possible. I have no problem with that, and neither should anyone aware of how life works.
If Hellebuyck really still believes in himself and his development as a goalie, his benefit would really be as short contract as possible right now, as his last season really sucked. If he really has real talent, he might be able to even substantially raise his value in a season or two. But if he gets greedy right now by maximising what he can get in his bad leverage situation, he can risks getting clearly better deals in just two or three years. This makes me think that he is just greedy and maybe not even himself believes truly in his chances to become a real top goalie.

Maximising for money in all situations and at all times, can in fact be even quite big stupidity, or it can be just plain desperation, or a sign of real uncertainty about your career. To me his way of reacting can be a sign of the things I mentioned here. I base this on the fact that he had a pretty bad season for a number one goalie. I have seen often that people that try to do maximum cash-in even after bad performances, can easily end up with the shortest straw, as they get a bad name and the bad name spreads in such small circles as the NHL is. Him getting pretty soon a dream season could save his career, but then he could be stuck with smaller money than he could really deserve with his better play at that moment.

Well, I don't seriously believe in Hellebuyck practically at all, so the best thing in my opinion to happen for the Jets would be that they would seriously get rid of him and preferably get a clearly better number two goalie than he is. I am seriously afraid that Hellebuyck will be dragging the Jets down even as a number two, and us Jets fans will have to suffer for wasted Jets seasons at least a couple of times more.

And I am not doubting him because of this arbitration issue, or even because of his pretty bad statistics. I am really doubting him because of how he has looked when I have seen him play in tens of games. He is a stiff goalie and his movement in general is really not at all good. I really don't like his positioning too much either and he loses his focus also way too easily. He just does not look like a good goalie that could really ever become truly reliable. This is why I don't like at all the situation. Because I don't see that the Jets should be really paying him anything at all, as I think he should be got rid of. But if he really is going to stay, it pains me that there most probably is even millions more wasted on his salary, when that money could and should be used for another goalie or player that could really help the Jets, which I unfortunately very much doubt that Hellebuyck will be able to do.


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07-07-2017, 05:51 PM
  #73
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His benefit would really be as short contract as possible right now, as his last season really sucked. If he really has real talent, he might be able to even really raise his value in a season or two. But if he gets greedy right now by maximising what he can get in his bad leverage situation, he can risks getting clearly better deals in just two or three years. This makes me think that he is just greedy and maybe not even himself believes truly in his chances to become a real top goalie.
Or he could get injured. Or he could disagree with what the Jets offered him. Or there are some things to work out in the contract, and he wants to ensure that they get done.

You seem to have your mind set on that asking for arbitration is overvaluing oneself (even though, as JetsFan815 pointed out, the very reason why arbitrators exist is to decide how much a player is worth), to the point where you don't seem to be willing to accept that there may be other reasons to ask for arbitration.

Heck, you seem to want Hellebuyck to sign a short deal, but how many arbitration contracts stretch longer than 2 years? If (and again, based on history, this is a huge if) they actually through with an arbitration hearing, Hellebuyck is going to get as much money as a neutral third party thinks he's worth, and will likely have a short contract. Your stance is that Hellebuyck should get as much money as he's worth (in your opinion that is very little, but who knows what a neutral third party thinks) and sign a short contract to up his value. You're essentially arguing that Hellebuyck should do exactly what an arbitration hearing would do for him, but that he shouldn't file for arbitration because it shows that he's greedy.

Question: Is this your stance with all the 30 players who asked for arbitration?

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07-07-2017, 06:13 PM
  #74
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I'd question Helle if he didn't do this.
Geez nothing to see here

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07-07-2017, 06:22 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Ippenator View Post
If Hellebuyck really still believes in himself and his development as a goalie, his benefit would really be as short contract as possible right now, as his last season really sucked.
Put your pro negotiator skills to work in this hypothetical situation - you are Hellebuyck's agent.

Are you not going to look at the many factors that may have contributed to your client's poor performance? Factors such as:
  • Injuries on the team leading to a sub-NHL level defense playing in front of your client.
  • A contract holdout for ~25% of the season by your (arguable) #1 RHD contributing to the suckiness of the sub-NHL level defense playing in front of your client.
  • A horrendous season by the team backup leading to your client being overworked, and thus harming his performance.
  • The compressed schedule because of the World Cup of Hockey (which he played in).

Quote:
If he really has real talent, he might be able to even substantially raise his value in a season or two. But if he gets greedy right now by maximising what he can get in his bad leverage situation, he can risks getting clearly better deals in just two or three years. This makes me think that he is just greedy and maybe not even himself believes truly in his chances to become a real top goalie.
You, plainly, are wrong. There's no risk here, that's the point of arbitration. A third party comes in and analyzes the applicable input that both sides of the dispute provide, and then makes a binding ruling. There is nothing more fair than that.

YOU are the one saying Helle should roll the dice. You're saying he should sign a lowly contract, and then play for the next one, when he could easily be injured, outplayed, or otherwise discarded. That's a big gamble when you can't see the future!

Quote:
Maximising for money in all situations and at all times, can in fact be even quite big stupidity, or it can be just plain desperation, or a sign of real uncertainty about your career. To me his way of reacting can be a sign of the things I mentioned here. I base this on the fact that he had a pretty bad season for a number one goalie. I have seen often that people that try to do maximum cash-in even after bad performances, can easily end up with the shortest straw, as they get a bad name and the bad name spreads in such small circles as the NHL is. Him getting pretty soon a dream season could save his career, but then he could be stuck with smaller money than he could really deserve with his better play at that moment.
Hellebuyck is not maximizing for money. He's insulating against an undesirable future turn of events.

He's not going to arbitration seeking a $4M salary, and while I'm sure he'd love to have one I'm certain that the man doesn't expect that. He made $670,000 last year. In the NHL. I don't think the $1.5M he'll end up signing for is anything to get nervous or bent out of shape about. In fact, if all he ends up being - ever - is a backup on our team, that's a damn good number!

Quote:
Well, I don't seriously believe in Hellebuyck practically at all, so the best thing in my opinion to happen for the Jets would be that they would seriously get rid of him and preferably get a clearly better number two goalie than he is. I am seriously afraid that Hellebuyck will be dragging the Jets down even as a number two, and us Jets fans will have to suffer for wasted Jets seasons at least a couple of times more.
You seem to be unable to divorce the filing for arbitration from your dislike of the player. Even further unable to ignore your bias in this conversation.

Quote:
And I am not doubting him because of this arbitration issue, or even because of his pretty bad statistics. I am really doubting him because of how he has looked when I have seen him play in tens of games. He is a stiff goalie and his movement in general is really not at all good. I really don't like his positioning too much either and he loses his focus also way too easily. He just does not look like a good goalie that could really ever become truly reliable. This is why I don't like at all the situation. Because I don't see that the Jets should be really paying him anything at all, as I think he should be got rid of. But if he really is going to stay, it pains me that there most probably is even millions more wasted on his salary, when that money could and should be used for another goalie or player that could really help the Jets, which I unfortunately very much doubt that Hellebuyck will be able to do.
Connor Hellebuyck is not going to be the reason we end up in cap pergatory, I feel very, very confident stating this now. You do realize that the longest contract you can sign coming away from arbitration is 2 years, right?

Look, all of the above - and all of your concerns - assume that the Jets and Helle ever even get to the arbitrator's desk. Do you know how often it never even gets that far? Most often this is a tactic to kick negotiations into gear so that the team and the player get it figured out between themselves before both parties have to give up control to someone unrelated.

This isn't the first time we've seen this happen with the Jets.

Your concerns about this are nonsensical.

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