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Hellebuyck Files for Arbitration

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Old
07-08-2017, 10:06 AM
  #101
Maukkis
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Originally Posted by CorgisPer60 View Post
Indeed. Nobody's really interested in having a reasonable discussion anymore. It's all about who can project their feelings the loudest, regardless of how off-base it is.
This is the very sad truth.

Every year, players file for arbitration. The percentage of players who go through the whole process is so incredibly small, yet for some it comes out as a provocation to think "me first" for once and do what's the best for them, and not for a group of people who only judge your performance, and have nothing else to do with your life.

I wish that this would not be a thing.

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07-08-2017, 10:24 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by broinwhyteridge View Post
I'm almost sorry I started this thread, although someone else would have come along and put one up anyways.

I figure 2 years and $1.5/year is probably pretty close to where he ends up.

Does anyone have any thoughts on whether the Jets want both goalies ending their contracts at the same time? Pros/Cons?
If Hellebuyck gets a two-year deal...

- the AAV will be cheaper: +
- assessing the situation in net will be easier with both goalies up: +
- Hellebuyck will be a RFA after that deal (anything more than two years, and he'll be an UFA after the deal): +
- it's a safer contract in regards to him busting (no cap hit in the books for 19-20, when we need room for big contracts): +

but...

- having both Mason and Hellebuyck up at the same time would probably be poor asset management wise: -
- whichever one stays after the two years have passed, the next starter will be an expensive one: -
- we lose out on the possibility of having a cheap (2.5ish?) goalie for the next 3-4 years in Hellebuyck, in case he becomes a stud: -


I'd take a gamble on signing him for a three-year deal for something close to 2 AAV. There definitely is some risk in doing so, but the reward could possibly relieve our cap crunch considerably. I also believe that players love term, and Hellebuyck could even be asking for it, knowing that his numbers won't warrant him good money for now.

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07-08-2017, 10:42 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by broinwhyteridge View Post
I'm almost sorry I started this thread.
Too true man, too true.

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I figure 2 years and $1.5/year is probably pretty close to where he ends up.
Seems reasonable, except...

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Does anyone have any thoughts on whether the Jets want both goalies ending their contracts at the same time? Pros/Cons?
Probably not prudent. And maybe that's what the Jets thought too, and offered Helle only a one year deal? Maybe he wants 2, and they might all settle on 3. Seems like a bad spot to be in, having to sign up 2 goalies in one off season if the gun gets put to your head.

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07-08-2017, 10:47 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by MardyBum View Post
I'm still wondering why people are getting upset over this after the dozen or so posts outlining how many Jets and how many players in general have done this in the past, or just this year.

This is nothing lol.
It's not just the Jets players. Filing for arbitration is a bargaining tool used by players. Over 30 players filed this year. Last year 25 players were involved in arbitration (1 was team initiated (-Mrazek - Detroit). All 25 cases were resolved through bargaining before the hearings. It's extremely rare for these to actually get to a hearing so people need to calm down.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/n...wartz-killorn/

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07-08-2017, 11:17 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by CorgisPer60 View Post
Indeed. Nobody's really interested in having a reasonable discussion anymore. It's all about who can project their feelings the loudest, regardless of how off-base it is.
Why people are not allowed to have strong opinions here? I am at least for sure willing to read well based points why others disagree with what I have posted here. Doesn't still mean that I necessarily have to change my mind on everything that I have posted here, even how well some of you think you know things around here. I have not personally attacked anyone here, and I'm not going to be crying about anyones strong opinion over mine.

I do admit that I have been harsh on Hellebuyck, but I'm not having anything against him personally either. But I have seen him play in about 50 games, and I really honestly don't like what I see talent wise. He is stiff and slow for an NHL class goalie. His positional play is not convincing either, and he really seems to have problems with keeping his focus inside the games at the NHL level.

I just really don't like skill wise what I see, and it pains me to see my favorite NHL-team waste their games and money on a goalie like Hellebuyck. Nothing personal. I just really see him having way too many weaknesses to become a good enough goalie for the Jets.


Last edited by Ippenator: 07-08-2017 at 11:24 AM.
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07-08-2017, 11:18 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Lorenzo1000 View Post
It's not just the Jets players. Filing for arbitration is a bargaining tool used by players. Over 30 players filed this year. Last year 25 players were involved in arbitration (1 was team initiated (-Mrazek - Detroit). All 25 cases were resolved through bargaining before the hearings. It's extremely rare for these to actually get to a hearing so people need to calm down.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/n...wartz-killorn/
Tyson Barrie actually went through the hearing, but they settled before the verdict came out. 2015, there were 7 hearings out of 25 filings, 4 cases settled before the verdict (Jon Bernier, Lance Bouma, Braden Holtby, Craig Smith), 3 went full distance (Alex Chiasson, Mike Hoffman, Marcus Johansson). So I wouldn't say that hearings are "extremely rare", but the majority are still resolved beforehand.

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07-08-2017, 11:28 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by CorgisPer60 View Post
Indeed. Nobody's really interested in having a reasonable discussion anymore. It's all about who can project their feelings the loudest, regardless of how off-base it is.
Quoted for truth.

I can see Helle getting 2m/yr on a short contract. Hopefully Chevy has learned his lesson after overpaying Pav on $ and term. I believe Helle is by far the superior goalie, but he's still unproven as a starter.

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07-08-2017, 11:31 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Bartho View Post
Quoted for truth.

I can see Helle getting 2m/yr on a short contract. Hopefully Chevy has learned his lesson after overpaying Pav on $ and term. I believe Helle is by far the superior goalie, but he's still unproven as a starter.
Pavelec was coming off a bridge contract. Helle is coming off his ELC. They are not really that similar (at least at the time Chevy was dealing with Pav as GM of the Jets)

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07-08-2017, 11:41 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Ippenator View Post
Why people are not allowed to have strong opinions here? I am at least for sure willing to read well based points why others disagree with what I have posted here. Doesn't still mean that I necessarily have to change my mind, even how well some of you think you know things around here. I have not personally attacked anyone here, and I'm not going to be crying about anyones strong opinion over mine.
Everyone has a right to an opinion, no one is denying you that. It's just that generally in this day and age information is so readily available that anything but an informed opinion is probably lazy or stubborn. Clinging to one that has been proven to be erroneous indicates the latter.

Your above quote (complaining that you have a right to your opinion) is actually exactly what I and CorgisPer60 were riffing on.

Quote:
I do admit that I have been harsh on Hellebuyck, but I'm not having anything against him personally either. But I have seen him play in about 50 games, and I really honestly don't like what I see talent wise. He is stiff and slow for an NHL class goalie. His positional play is not convincing either, and he really seems to have problems with keeping his focus inside the games at the NHL level.
Except for the times when you called him greedy, etc.

As it relates to his play and development, he's 24. There's still room to grow, and all indications are that he has the tools to be an NHL starter. This isn't my opinion, but the opinion of professionals who assess goalie talent. Carey Price he is not, but he also isn't going to cost us $10.5M AAV. Not even 20% of that.

Quote:
I just really don't like skill wise what I see, and it pains me to see my favorite NHL-team waste their games and money on a goalie like Hellebuyck. Nothing personal. I just really see him having way too many weaknesses to become a good enough goalie for the Jets.
The sky is not falling in Winnipeg.

Again, even if this reaches the arbitrator (which it rarely does) it's not as though he is going to be awarded a salary that would get ever put Winnipeg in any kind of cap trouble. He's going to get a contract in the $1.5M AAV area. If all he ever becomes in this league is a career backup (which, IMO, is the worst he'll be) then to have him on the books for that kind of scratch for 2-3 years would actually be a boon. I expect average goaltending from Connor, and that's all we need to make a push for a playoff spot.

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07-08-2017, 11:48 AM
  #110
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Also, Ippenator - no one is ragging on you here. We are trying to help you see the light to set your mind at ease. This whole thing is literally a non-issue.

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07-08-2017, 11:58 AM
  #111
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99% of the posts on here are lectures about how this is a non-issue.

If it's a non-issue to someone they don't need to harp on to everyone else, they can vacate the thread.

It's a non-issue to me too, which is why I'm outta here.

Oh and he'll get millions of dollars one way or another. MILLIONS.

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07-08-2017, 12:01 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Ippenator View Post
I just really don't like skill wise what I see, and it pains me to see my favorite NHL-team waste their games and money on a goalie like Hellebuyck. Nothing personal. I just really see him having way too many weaknesses to become a good enough goalie for the Jets.
Whatever else he is or isn't, he is an asset for the Jets, and they have a limited amount of those in the league. A sensible trade probably isn't there at this time, so paying him and making something with him is more beneficial than letting him walk to unrestricted free agency, even in the case that one would agree with you on his merits.

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07-08-2017, 12:04 PM
  #113
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Next offseason Trouba will file for arbitration- like Chevy always says "It's a process"

Of course many here will use the Trouba filing as evidence that he's greedy or wants out of Winnipeg or whatever agenda they want to advance. The reality is it is just normal.

What would be real unusual would be if a player like Trouba chose not to file because that would be setting him up for another potential holdout scenario.

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07-08-2017, 12:12 PM
  #114
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^ Ryan Johansen didn't file. I think that's the bigger news.

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07-08-2017, 12:22 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by mcpw View Post
^ Ryan Johansen didn't file. I think that's the bigger news.
If RyJo holds out again, does that make Trouba less appealing to other clubs (because they share agents - it could be a look at future tactics)?

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07-08-2017, 12:28 PM
  #116
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^ Ryan Johansen didn't file. I think that's the bigger news.
He's in a slightly different position though. He could still just sign his QO (which is pretty substantial @ $6M) and become a UFA. Will be interesting to see how it plays out.

QO's expire on July 15.

Trouba would never sign his $3.5M QO.

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07-08-2017, 02:45 PM
  #117
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Any thoughts on how much scotch did Poile go through after seeing Kuznetsov getting 7.8 per year? That's a wonderful comparable for Johansen, and it's not like Nashville has a boatload of options, if their negotiations don't go smoothly.

The way I see it is that Johansen doesn't want a third party to ignore the fact that Nashville has no depth at center and the fact that he has been severely underpaid for the entirety of his NHL career, and therefore he didn't file. Also, with the injury that happened to him this spring, he might appreciate a little bit of term and stability (as well as the truck full of money he's inevitably getting from Nashville).

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07-08-2017, 02:54 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Maukkis View Post
Any thoughts on how much scotch did Poile go through after seeing Kuznetsov getting 7.8 per year? That's a wonderful comparable for Johansen, and it's not like Nashville has a boatload of options, if their negotiations don't go smoothly.

The way I see it is that Johansen doesn't want a third party to ignore the fact that Nashville has no depth at center and the fact that he has been severely underpaid for the entirety of his NHL career, and therefore he didn't file. Also, with the injury that happened to him this spring, he might appreciate a little bit of term and stability (as well as the truck full of money he's inevitably getting from Nashville).
He might not like it, but then again, the Predators aren't in cap trouble in any way.

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07-08-2017, 03:08 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Ippenator View Post
Why people are not allowed to have strong opinions here?
You're welcome to have strong opinions. But because this is a discussion forum, expect to have your opinions challenged by some. T'is how it works.

Personally: I have a bit of an issue with "sky is falling stuff", so I'll typically jump in with a more moderate opinion to counter.

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07-08-2017, 03:35 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by YWGinYYZ View Post
You're welcome to have strong opinions. But because this is a discussion forum, expect to have your opinions challenged by some. T'is how it works.

Personally: I have a bit of an issue with "sky is falling stuff", so I'll typically jump in with a more moderate opinion to counter.
Opinions challenged is perfectly fine and what I'm hoping and expecting for. But complaining about people having these strong opinions in general does not belong here in my opinion. Challenge with a counter argument about the topic, but is it really necessary to start whining about how people should discuss here? I mean everybody has their style and their way of reacting to things. But as long as it does not go to personal attacks, I think it is perfectly fine that some are extremely cautious and careful with their approach, some are humoristic and sarcastic, some emotional and even theatrical and some even provocative (about the topic still). In my opinion all this is perfectly fine and I don't see any so called correct way to discuss here, as long as it doesn't become personal and hostile between posters.

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07-08-2017, 03:48 PM
  #121
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Trust me: if there were blatant personal attacks that broke site rules, myself or one of the other mods would have at least deleted those posts. You're welcome to report whatever you think goes over the line, but my suggestion is: a relatively thick skin is required amongst the rabble here - we also have fairly strong opinions and are very willing to defend them.

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07-08-2017, 03:54 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by Aavco Cup;134499783[[B
B]]He's in a slightly different position though. He could still just sign his QO (which is pretty substantial @ $6M) and become a UFA.[/B][/B] Will be interesting to see how it plays out.

QO's expire on July 15.

Trouba would never sign his $3.5M QO.
Very good point Aavco. Navigating the RFA landscape definitely has its risks.

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07-08-2017, 03:59 PM
  #123
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The title of this things should be changed to- "Overreaction: The Thread"

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07-08-2017, 04:16 PM
  #124
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What about 3 years at less money, say $4 million total hit. Can't give up yet can they or are they waiting now for Comrie?

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07-08-2017, 04:20 PM
  #125
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The title of this things should be changed to- "Overreaction: The Thread"
Threads like this are what make legends like Stempniak.

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