HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Detroit Red Wings
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie
Notices

RFA Negotiations: Tatar & AA

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
07-06-2017, 08:41 AM
  #1
Frk It
Crap Space
 
Frk It's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 22,809
vCash: 500
RFA Negotiations: Tatar & AA

From HSJ:
Quote:
Detroit Red Wings forward Tomas Tatar is expected to file for arbitration this afternoon.

Itís not an unusual practice for restricted free agents to do so, as it affords them a measure of rights, and his agent and the Detroit Red Wings can continue to negotiate while awaiting a hearing.

If it does go to arbitration, it would be a one-year deal because Tatar is eligible to become an unrestricted free agent next summer.

Tatar is seeking a multi-year deal worth around $5 million annually.
The Athletic on AA:
Quote:
Athanasiou is still establishing himself as an NHL regular so his camp doesnít have much appetite to lock him in at a low-average salary on a long-term deal.

If itís a two-year bridge deal, the best comparable may be Canucks forward Sven Baertschi, who signed a two-year deal last summer with an annual cap hit of $1.85 million. When he signed, he was one-year older than Athanasiou and was coming off a 15-goal season, compared to the 18 goals Athanasiou scored this season, so it might be a touch low. Matt Caneís projections have Athanasiou at $1.9 million, so weíre right in the ballpark.
The Athletic on Tatar:
Quote:
The Red Wings are willing to go four or five years on Tatar, but finding a salary that makes sense for both sides will be the challenge.

The best comparable for Tatar may be Senators forward Mike Hoffman, who avoided arbitration last year with Ottawa by signing a four-year contract worth $20.75 million ($5.185 million AAV) after putting up 56 goals in the previous two seasons combined before signing. Like Tatar is now, Hoffman was 26 years old when he signed.
Sources:
-http://www.freep.com/story/sports/nh...ion/452176001/
-https://theathletic.com/72913/2017/0...ght-look-like/

Frk It is offline  
Old
07-06-2017, 08:49 AM
  #2
njx9
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 1,291
vCash: 500
Weird that AA doesn't want to sign long term. Who could've seen that coming. I'm surprised Tatar wants term, and doesn't just want the 1 year to UFA, though maybe that's just injury fears.

njx9 is offline  
Old
07-06-2017, 08:49 AM
  #3
Beltv
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 228
vCash: 500
I think these projections were all something that we had penciled in here. Obviously we are in a cap crunch so Kenny most likely low balling to save a little. They'll get that in arbitration I believe.

Looks like we are going to be in trouble even with Franzen on SOIR. Unless ofcourse Big E and Kronner start the season on IR as well. (Most of us think that is what will happen anyway, which would explain the signing of BOTH Daley AND Witkowski)

Beltv is offline  
Old
07-06-2017, 08:50 AM
  #4
Flowah
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 9,130
vCash: 500
You gotta think Tatar's getting at least 5x5. Any less of a hit than that and Holland's done good.

Flowah is offline  
Old
07-06-2017, 08:56 AM
  #5
Frk It
Crap Space
 
Frk It's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 22,809
vCash: 500
I'm expecting/guessing (basically same as The Athletic suggests, I like their comps)

Tatar - 4 years, 21 million (5.25m AAV)
Athanasiou - 2 years, 4 million (2m AAV)

Frk It is offline  
Old
07-06-2017, 08:57 AM
  #6
tsweeney
Registered User
 
tsweeney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,502
vCash: 500
AA doesn't want term because his team has zero leverage on a long term deal. He's still eminently replaceable on a re-building team. For what he thinks he's capable of, he'd be wildly underpaid on a long term deal if signed now.

tsweeney is offline  
Old
07-06-2017, 09:04 AM
  #7
Ezekial
Aboard the AAmtrak
 
Ezekial's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Chicago
Posts: 5,893
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
Weird that AA doesn't want to sign long term. Who could've seen that coming. I'm surprised Tatar wants term, and doesn't just want the 1 year to UFA, though maybe that's just injury fears.
Why the hell would he?

Getting locked in at 5x2mil wouldn't be a good move for his career.

Tatar wants guaranteed money, these players have more to worry about than being on an amazing team.

Ezekial is offline  
Old
07-06-2017, 09:13 AM
  #8
njx9
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 1,291
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezekial View Post
Why the hell would he?

Getting locked in at 5x2mil wouldn't be a good move for his career.
Especially on a team that regularly drops him to 6 minutes a night. Signing for 5x$4m or something actually vaguely reasonable would be moronic, as well.

Quote:
Tatar wants guaranteed money, these players have more to worry about than being on an amazing team.
You're right; that's why every player has always gone to the highest bidder, only, and has always maxed out their contract. Or something.

njx9 is offline  
Old
07-06-2017, 09:38 AM
  #9
Pavels Dog
Registered User
 
Pavels Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Sweden
Country: Sweden
Posts: 8,605
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
Especially on a team that regularly drops him to 6 minutes a night. Signing for 5x$4m or something actually vaguely reasonable would be moronic, as well.
He doesn't have the leverage to get 4 million. Players in his situation sign bridge-deals 99% of the time.

Pavels Dog is offline  
Old
07-06-2017, 09:43 AM
  #10
Goalie guy
Registered User
 
Goalie guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Taylor MI
Country: United States
Posts: 1,824
vCash: 500
I think we are going to start seeing a lot of the kids doing the same thing, they don't trust KH or Trashill. They don't really want to stay here on a sinking ship that they will be blamed for.

Goalie guy is offline  
Old
07-06-2017, 09:44 AM
  #11
Ezekial
Aboard the AAmtrak
 
Ezekial's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Chicago
Posts: 5,893
vCash: 500
5x4 for AA would be one of the worst contract negotiations in the history of the sport. It's so far from vaguely reasonable it's not even funny.

Ezekial is offline  
Old
07-06-2017, 09:45 AM
  #12
njx9
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 1,291
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavels Dog View Post
He doesn't have the leverage to get 4 million. Players in his situation sign bridge-deals 99% of the time.
We started talking about not wanting a long term deal at a low average salary, which was mentioned in the original post. I then mentioned that signing for a non-low average salary would be equally moronic. The relative frequency that players sign those types of deals is completely non sequitur to that conversation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezekial View Post
5x4 for AA would be one of the worst contract negotiations in the history of the sport. It's so far from vaguely reasonable it's not even funny.
God forbid anyone ever use an example. Let's discuss the specific contract details of a hypothetical example instead of what that example was being used to illustrate. And let's gloss over that players frequently sign for reasons that aren't solely 'most digits to the left of the decimal'.

njx9 is offline  
Old
07-06-2017, 09:55 AM
  #13
Pavels Dog
Registered User
 
Pavels Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Sweden
Country: Sweden
Posts: 8,605
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
We started talking about not wanting a long term deal at a low average salary, which was mentioned in the original post. I then mentioned that signing for a non-low average salary would be equally moronic. The relative frequency that players sign those types of deals is completely non sequitur to that conversation.
There's just nothing strange about AA not wanting a long-term deal, it has nothing to do with his icetime (in fact by Red Wings standards he's spent very little time in the AHL).

Pavels Dog is offline  
Old
07-06-2017, 09:57 AM
  #14
Ezekial
Aboard the AAmtrak
 
Ezekial's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Chicago
Posts: 5,893
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
God forbid anyone ever use an example. Let's discuss the specific contract details of a hypothetical example instead of what that example was being used to illustrate. And let's gloss over that players frequently sign for reasons that aren't solely 'most digits to the left of the decimal'.
I'm not saying players only chase money, but in Tatar's case - he's 3 years removed from his career year thus far and trending towards plateau. He's also coming off a year in which he had surgery at the end of it. It's not in his best interest to sign another "bridge" deal to take him to UFA rather than take the guaranteed money and term from the team who holds his rights.

Ezekial is offline  
Old
07-06-2017, 10:31 AM
  #15
njx9
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 1,291
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavels Dog View Post
There's just nothing strange about AA not wanting a long-term deal, it has nothing to do with his icetime (in fact by Red Wings standards he's spent very little time in the AHL).
His time in the AHL has literally nothing to do with his NHL ice time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezekial View Post
I'm not saying players only chase money, but in Tatar's case - he's 3 years removed from his career year thus far and trending towards plateau. He's also coming off a year in which he had surgery at the end of it. It's not in his best interest to sign another "bridge" deal to take him to UFA rather than take the guaranteed money and term from the team who holds his rights.
OK, that's fair. I'd actually completely forgotten about his recent surgery, so I can certainly see coming off an injury and wanting more security.

That said, I feel like, given contract trends, he'd likely get more dollars on the open market than he'll ever get in Detroit (though he'll likely get far more term in Detroit).

njx9 is offline  
Old
07-06-2017, 10:48 AM
  #16
Frk It
Crap Space
 
Frk It's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 22,809
vCash: 500
I don't understand the dialogue here.

2 years from now Athanasiou will undoubtedly have more earning potential (bigger sample size to negotiate with and also most likely an increased role). He'll also sign a deal at that point that has a lower % or RFA years and higher % of UFA years, so he will have more leverage to ask for money.

So yeah, you take a bridge deal everytime. It's a no-brainer.

Frk It is offline  
Old
07-06-2017, 10:55 AM
  #17
tsweeney
Registered User
 
tsweeney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,502
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
Especially on a team that regularly drops him to 6 minutes a night. Signing for 5x$4m or something actually vaguely reasonable would be moronic, as well.



You're right; that's why every player has always gone to the highest bidder, only, and has always maxed out their contract. Or something.
?

If he got 5 x $4M, that's plenty of security. That would be a fantastic deal for AA and his agents. Even if he got shunted down to 3 minutes a night or benched or whatever... wouldn't he be guaranteed at least 2/3rds of 20M (if the Wings just up and bought him out immediately after signing it)?

5/20M would be terrible on the Wings side of the ledger and is in no way a realistic number for a guy with AA's status in the league.

tsweeney is offline  
Old
07-06-2017, 10:59 AM
  #18
tsweeney
Registered User
 
tsweeney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,502
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
His time in the AHL has literally nothing to do with his NHL ice time.



OK, that's fair. I'd actually completely forgotten about his recent surgery, so I can certainly see coming off an injury and wanting more security.

That said, I feel like, given contract trends, he'd likely get more dollars on the open market than he'll ever get in Detroit (though he'll likely get far more term in Detroit).
Tatar would likely get more from another team on the market... but it's not like a team in UFA is gonna give him 6 and Detroit is only offering 4.

He'd get 500-750k more per year elsewhere, probably, but also would likely get 5 or 6 years from Detroit and 3-4 from some other team.

His most likely deal is going to end up being the Nyquist deal, as the two are really comparable still. Maybe adjusted for cap inflation or whatever, but I can't see him getting a ton more than Nyquist.

tsweeney is offline  
Old
07-06-2017, 11:11 AM
  #19
tsweeney
Registered User
 
tsweeney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,502
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
We started talking about not wanting a long term deal at a low average salary, which was mentioned in the original post. I then mentioned that signing for a non-low average salary would be equally moronic. The relative frequency that players sign those types of deals is completely non sequitur to that conversation.



God forbid anyone ever use an example. Let's discuss the specific contract details of a hypothetical example instead of what that example was being used to illustrate. And let's gloss over that players frequently sign for reasons that aren't solely 'most digits to the left of the decimal'.
You used an example that was so far out of left field as to be worthless. AA has nowhere near the leverage to pull $4M a year this early in his RFA status. It's not anywhere close to a reasonable dollar amount for a 30 point center/winger with noted questions about his effort and defense. Hell, Darren Helm as a UFA got 3.85 over 5 years... he's a 30 point center/winger who excels on the defensive end and is a vital specialty teams player. And that contract was treated like cancer from the moment it was given out.

And AA signing that deal would be for no other reason than the most digits to left of decimal. That's WAY more guaranteed money than his play up to this point justifies.

To end, I hope you mean signing him to a long term, not low average salary is moronic for the Wings... not for AA. It would be the best of all worlds for him. Get $20M guaranteed, likely be granted every single opportunity near the top lines as you would have to try to make the investment worthwhile, and then be a UFA at the end of it? God damn, that would be a dream scenario for AA.

tsweeney is offline  
Old
07-06-2017, 11:14 AM
  #20
chances14
Registered User
 
chances14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Michigan
Country: United States
Posts: 9,715
vCash: 500
AA has basically one full season under his belt. it would be absolutely moronic for the wings to sign him to a long term deal at anything above 2 million and it would be equally stupid for athanasiou to sign a deal like that

like 99% of other players in his situation, he will sign a bridge deal with the hopes of building up his resume for leverage for his next contract

chances14 is offline  
Old
07-06-2017, 01:06 PM
  #21
Wingsfan 4 life
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Country: Canada
Posts: 399
vCash: 500
AA doesn't have the leverage or enough of a track record to command a long term deal or high salary in the short term.

Wingsfan 4 life is offline  
Old
07-06-2017, 08:41 PM
  #22
BinCookin
Registered User
 
BinCookin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: London, ON
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,305
vCash: 500
So what contract number make these 2 whipping boys for having bad contracts?

tatar at 5.5AAV?
AA at 3AAV?

BinCookin is offline  
Old
07-06-2017, 09:11 PM
  #23
Flowah
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 9,130
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BinCookin View Post
So what contract number make these 2 whipping boys for having bad contracts?

tatar at 5.5AAV?
AA at 3AAV?
Tatar would probably get 5.5 as a UFA. I don't think that makes him a whipping boy. Nor even Holland. Though I would chalk it up to yet another player that apparently we can't get any sort of discount for. I don't think we got discounts on Abby or DK, despite us having "drafted" and developed them and them both being Michigan boys. I think that's indicative of them not seeing a possible win any time soon and preferring to get paid. Players like Shatty will take that discount if they think there's a decent chance at the cup. We used to get that too from guys like Hossa.

If we lock up AA for 6 years at $3M (which won't happen) similar to a Calle Jarnkrok deal, (imagine a 25 year old 3C that players all situations, for $2M a year for the next 5 years. Good deal) I wouldn't be upset with that. Why? Because that's exactly the kind of gamble I think you need to take. I think AA's already pretty established as a middle6 talent. He sure scores like at least a 3rd liner, and without good minutes or even regular PP time. It's a gamble that he is a steal by the 2nd, 3rd year of that contract. But worth taking imo. Those kinds of contracts and ELCs are basically the only way to get real value in the cap era.

Anything under 3 years and if AA gets $3M, then Holland overpaid.

Flowah is offline  
Old
07-07-2017, 06:38 AM
  #24
Henkka
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Tampere, Finland
Country: Finland
Posts: 13,836
vCash: 500
Brett Ritchie from Dallas got 1.75M.

RFA negotiations are always finding comparables, and Athanasiou should get more.

Usually only age + games amount will determine RFA contracts on this phase of career. Production is the least determing factor.

Ritchie 24y, 117 games, 34 points
Andreas, 23y, 101 games, 43 points

This Ricthie contract should set AA to 2M - 2.25M range

Henkka is offline  
Old
07-07-2017, 08:05 AM
  #25
Flowah
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 9,130
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Henkka View Post
Brett Ritchie from Dallas got 1.75M.

RFA negotiations are always finding comparables, and Athanasiou should get more.

Usually only age + games amount will determine RFA contracts on this phase of career. Production is the least determing factor.

Ritchie 24y, 117 games, 34 points
Andreas, 23y, 101 games, 43 points

This Ricthie contract should set AA to 2M - 2.25M range
Wow. He's really producing at a ~.43PPG? That's not bad at all...

Flowah is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:48 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. @2017 All Rights Reserved.