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RFA Negotiations: Tatar & AA

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Old
07-10-2017, 12:00 PM
  #101
Frk It
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Originally Posted by TCNorthstars View Post
If he wants to be compensated like a marginal player, I am sure Holland would be happy to sign him for 3.85-4.25 per year. Me thinks he is looking for a bit more than that.
Except if he is willing to pay 3.85 million or 4.25 a year for the Helm and Abdelkader's of the world, then 5-6 million for Tatar should be no big deal. As he is a far superior player. It's all relative.

Holland has been overpaying marginal players for the last 3 years. Dekeyser is a marginal player and was just given 5 million a year for 6 years. Abby cracks 20 goals once and gets 4.25 million. Holland's the one that set that bar high by giving out these bad contracts, not sure why you (or anyone) think Tatar shouldn't ask for money accordingly from him.

When you are overly generous people are going to come at you for more money. Maybe if Holland had told one of those guys to pound sand this would play out differently.

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Old
07-10-2017, 12:06 PM
  #102
Lazlo Hollyfeld
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Originally Posted by chances14 View Post
i don't know about the cancer stuff.

but when looking at market comparables, i think it's reasonable to assume that Tatar is asking for close to 6 million unless his agent is a moron
That very well could be. But as you mention that's based on market comparables.

The person I was quoting stated it as fact, and as if it was an insane ask in a negotiation.

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Old
07-10-2017, 12:20 PM
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frk It View Post
Except if he is willing to pay 3.85 million or 4.25 a year for the Helm and Abdelkader's of the world, then 5-6 million for Tatar should be no big deal. As he is a far superior player. It's all relative.

Holland has been overpaying marginal players for the last 3 years. Dekeyser is a marginal player and was just given 5 million a year for 6 years. Abby cracks 20 goals once and gets 4.25 million. Holland's the one that set that bar high by giving out these bad contracts, not sure why you (or anyone) think Tatar shouldn't ask for money accordingly from him.

When you are overly generous people are going to come at you for more money. Maybe if Holland had told one of those guys to pound sand this would play out differently.
Yeah, once the precedence is set, I don't see how anybody could be mad at the player for wanting to take advantage of it.

Thinking it was stupid to set the precedence in the first place, sure. But if you were in Tatar's shoes...why WOULDN'T you want to hop on the gravy train? At this point, it's one of the very few potential remaining reasons to stay with the Wings, rather than just hit free agency.

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07-10-2017, 12:32 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Frk It View Post
Except if he is willing to pay 3.85 million or 4.25 a year for the Helm and Abdelkader's of the world, then 5-6 million for Tatar should be no big deal. As he is a far superior player. It's all relative.

Holland has been overpaying marginal players for the last 3 years. Dekeyser is a marginal player and was just given 5 million a year for 6 years. Abby cracks 20 goals once and gets 4.25 million. Holland's the one that set that bar high by giving out these bad contracts, not sure why you (or anyone) think Tatar shouldn't ask for money accordingly from him.

When you are overly generous people are going to come at you for more money. Maybe if Holland had told one of those guys to pound sand this would play out differently.
Ding Ding Ding.

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Old
07-10-2017, 12:41 PM
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frk It View Post
Except if he is willing to pay 3.85 million or 4.25 a year for the Helm and Abdelkader's of the world, then 5-6 million for Tatar should be no big deal. As he is a far superior player. It's all relative.

Holland has been overpaying marginal players for the last 3 years. Dekeyser is a marginal player and was just given 5 million a year for 6 years. Abby cracks 20 goals once and gets 4.25 million. Holland's the one that set that bar high by giving out these bad contracts, not sure why you (or anyone) think Tatar shouldn't ask for money accordingly from him.

When you are overly generous people are going to come at you for more money. Maybe if Holland had told one of those guys to pound sand this would play out differently.
I don't think Tatar shouldn't ask for the money. Not sure how you got that from my post. I'd be fine with giving him 5. Perhaps I read the quoted posters writing in a different way than they intended.

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Old
07-10-2017, 01:04 PM
  #106
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Tatar is now a cancer?

Wow

Mrazek and now Tatar being thrown under the bus in this forum

Awful

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Old
07-10-2017, 01:20 PM
  #107
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Tatar should be traded now. I wouldn't feel very comfortable about betting on him raising his trade value on a team that is destined for another 25-30th place finish in goals for. The Wings set a nasty precedent when they handed out four million + a year to bottom six grinders, and Tatar is actually a legit top six winger.

Plus it improves the Wings odds at winning the lottery.

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Old
07-10-2017, 07:13 PM
  #108
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Tyler Johnson 7/35 doesn't help Tatar out. No way is he worth $1M more a year than Johnson.

I don't want to see Tatar leave, but I'm far more loathe to see a 5-6 year deal at 6M per. That contract would be an albatross from the moment the ink dried on it.

Making mistakes with Helm and Abby are no reason to rush into another long term mistake.

E: I say that because I just simply don't see Tatar ever being more than the player he is now... which isn't necessarily a bad thing, because he's a very good player. However, the cap era is all about surplus value over what your contract is... and Tatar's tipping point is about 5.5M. He's probably worth about that much. You get him for less, you're getting more value. You pay more, you're overpaying.

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Old
07-10-2017, 08:12 PM
  #109
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Depends on term.

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Old
07-10-2017, 09:38 PM
  #110
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Maybe if we had Yzerman negotiating the contract we'd get him for a good price.

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Old
07-10-2017, 09:40 PM
  #111
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Well according to a interview he done, If KH lets it's go to arbitration this will be his last year here. I said it before we are going to see young good players leaving here as quick as they can because of the old man and trash connection!!!

And should things get to that point? Well… the situation may get even uglier. George Malik of Red Wings blog KuklasKorner uncovered and translated a radio interview Tatar conducted just this week in which the 26 year-old states, "Arbitration is the last option, I have to sign off, it's just a mandatory contract. Unless I agree with Detroit, I'll go to the court, where they'll give me a year's contract. That would probably be my last season in Detroit. We'll see in a few days or weeks before it all comes together," said Tatar.” For the full report, click here.

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Old
07-10-2017, 10:00 PM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zetterberg4Captain View Post
Tatar is now a cancer?

Wow

Mrazek and now Tatar being thrown under the bus in this forum

Awful
The Kenny for President crowd on here attack the credibility of everyone who pisses off good ole Kenny.

So now Tatar is the playboy of the western world because he won't sign on the cheap . Just like Mantha was spare parts, and AA was a distraction.

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Old
07-10-2017, 10:16 PM
  #113
Vatican Roulette
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Originally Posted by jolly roger View Post
The Kenny for President crowd on here attack the credibility of everyone who pisses off good ole Kenny.

So now Tatar is the playboy of the western world because he won't sign on the cheap . Just like Mantha was spare parts, and AA was a distraction.
I don't have any ill will towards Tatar, one of my favourites before Detroit even drafted him.

He is a bit of a wild one, but he uses his personality to be a good player. Cocky? Yes.

But before this, I've never heard anything bad about his character when it comes to the team.

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Old
07-10-2017, 11:34 PM
  #114
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Where is this "Tatar likes to party" bit coming from? The only thing I've heard to that effect were the allegations about being a noisy neighbor at the Royal Oak high-rise. If I'm not mistaken, that also involved the embodiment of character himself, one Darren Helm...

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07-10-2017, 11:46 PM
  #115
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And no complaints about tinky winkys love for the party?

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Old
07-10-2017, 11:56 PM
  #116
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Tatar's new deal is a bit tricky. Sure he scored 25G this year but for the 1st half of the year he was very disappointing. Two big concerns would hold me back from giving Tatar a long term contract.

1. His play under Trashill. Holland seems to want to keep Trashill, but missuses him so bad. Having Tatar be the first man in on the dump and chase and get out muscled is not the way to use him. Tatar trying to win a puck battle against Klefbom was absolutely hilarious

2. Do we have any center after Z is done that can get the most out of Tatar? Do we have a legit play making center in the fold that can carry him and keep him worthy of a 6+ year $30M+ contract?


At this point I would give him a 1 year deal and see if he can produce without Z.

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Old
07-11-2017, 07:05 AM
  #117
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Whatever.

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07-11-2017, 07:37 AM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Goalie guy View Post
Well according to a interview he done, If KH lets it's go to arbitration this will be his last year here. I said it before we are going to see young good players leaving here as quick as they can because of the old man and trash connection!!!

And should things get to that point? Well… the situation may get even uglier. George Malik of Red Wings blog KuklasKorner uncovered and translated a radio interview Tatar conducted just this week in which the 26 year-old states, "Arbitration is the last option, I have to sign off, it's just a mandatory contract. Unless I agree with Detroit, I'll go to the court, where they'll give me a year's contract. That would probably be my last season in Detroit. We'll see in a few days or weeks before it all comes together," said Tatar.” For the full report, click here.
Sounds like he's trying to use the media to "urge" Kenny in getting it done. I don't take any stock in his comment, he's trying to use the situation to his advantage.

I don't think Tatar is a "cancer", but I am not really a fan of his. If I remember correctly, neither was Babcock.

A sign and trade would be fine by me. He's not core piece of the future.

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07-11-2017, 08:18 AM
  #119
Bruce Joker
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Haha party dude Tatar. I love character assassination. I think there was only ever one complaint I ever heard about him. Four years ago and that was a noise complaint (after winning the Calder) I could be wrong and that might have never happened. Because that was one tiny thing

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07-11-2017, 08:40 AM
  #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsweeney View Post
Tyler Johnson 7/35 doesn't help Tatar out. No way is he worth $1M more a year than Johnson.

I don't want to see Tatar leave, but I'm far more loathe to see a 5-6 year deal at 6M per. That contract would be an albatross from the moment the ink dried on it.

Making mistakes with Helm and Abby are no reason to rush into another long term mistake.

E: I say that because I just simply don't see Tatar ever being more than the player he is now... which isn't necessarily a bad thing, because he's a very good player. However, the cap era is all about surplus value over what your contract is... and Tatar's tipping point is about 5.5M. He's probably worth about that much. You get him for less, you're getting more value. You pay more, you're overpaying.
I agree with your post, but Johnson isn't that good, he's just a Red Wing killer. Tatar is a little more dynamic, imho.

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07-11-2017, 08:58 AM
  #121
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I agree with your post, but Johnson isn't that good, he's just a Red Wing killer. Tatar is a little more dynamic, imho.
One has 211 points in 308 games, one has 194 in 345.
One has a 72 point season one has a 56 point season.
One is considered a playoff performer, one is not.
One had 45 points in 66 games last season, one had 46 in 82.

Give me Tyler Johnson all day, he's more than a Red Wing killer.

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07-11-2017, 09:39 AM
  #122
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Funny how all these 'character problems' keep popping up.

I think the problem is Kenny approaches the negotiation table as if it was still 2002 and he has all the cards in his hand.

He expects these guys like Tatar to stay in the minors way longer than other teams would which does two things. 1. They make less money in that time span by playing in the minors vs majors. 2. It compromises their future earnings by limiting their NHL resume when the next contract or two come up.

So Tatar goes through all that and he's still a Wing. Then, after being this team's leading goal scorer for years, he gets to the negotiation table and Kenny wants to play hardball. A year/two years after giving Helm and Abdelkader ridiculous extensions. On a team where Jonathan Ericsson is a 4M player, where Jimmy Howard is a 5M player. And he's going to get grief over getting paid what is reasonable given his production? No wonder he may opt out entirely.

As a side note, I believe I remember reading that the tensions between Mrazek and the org started when Mrazek opted for arbitration last year. Funny, he didn't seem to have many 'character issues' before that either...

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Old
07-11-2017, 09:49 AM
  #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezekial View Post
One has 211 points in 308 games, one has 194 in 345.
One has a 72 point season one has a 56 point season.
One is considered a playoff performer, one is not.
One had 45 points in 66 games last season, one had 46 in 82.

Give me Tyler Johnson all day, he's more than a Red Wing killer.
And he's a center.

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Old
07-11-2017, 09:54 AM
  #124
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If the arbitrator decided to side with DET FO and he got a crap deal for 1 year, does he HAVE to sign? Can he demand a trade/sit out?

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Old
07-11-2017, 10:31 AM
  #125
BinCookin
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If the arbitrator decided to side with DET FO and he got a crap deal for 1 year, does he HAVE to sign? Can he demand a trade/sit out?
technically anyone can sit out. But his 1 year deal would be pushed to next year. thus he Must play for detroit for 1 year before he plays anywhere else.

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