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Detroit Red Wings #2 Prospect Summer 17/18

View Poll Results: Who is the Detroit Red Wings #2 Prospect?
Tyler Bertuzzi 4 3.42%
Dennis Cholowski 5 4.27%
Joe Hicketts 0 0%
Filip Hronek 53 45.30%
Gustav Lindstrom 0 0%
Michael Rasmussen 53 45.30%
Robbie Russo 1 0.85%
Vili Saarijarvi 1 0.85%
Jordan Sambrook 0 0%
Givani Smith 0 0%
Voters: 117. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
07-10-2017, 06:24 PM
  #51
Pavels Dog
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Originally Posted by Shaman464 View Post
40-50 points seems like a major stretch.
I don't know about that. Like I said he was right on par with Tatar's numbers this season, only difference is Bert is showing more of an upwards trajectory while Tatar was a bit stagnant in the AHL. He may not become as consistent of a scorer as Tatar, but I can easily see him having a prime where he puts up better numbers than guys like Helm/Abby do. He has more skill and scoring ability.

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07-10-2017, 06:36 PM
  #52
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Just read the verbiage the organization uses in describing him. "Hard to play against." "Big down the middle." "Character guy."

None of these are descriptions that should be utilized for a number 9 pick.

https://www.nhl.com/redwings/news/wi...ce/c-290111390

The organization did not prioritize "best player available."

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07-10-2017, 07:04 PM
  #53
HisNoodliness
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So how are we going to resolve this if it finishes in a tie?

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07-10-2017, 07:15 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by HisNoodliness View Post
So how are we going to resolve this if it finishes in a tie?
Don't no but the next round should go quickly

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Old
07-10-2017, 09:28 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Cyborg Yzerberg View Post
Just read the verbiage the organization uses in describing him. "Hard to play against." "Big down the middle." "Character guy."

None of these are descriptions that should be utilized for a number 9 pick.

https://www.nhl.com/redwings/news/wi...ce/c-290111390

The organization did not prioritize "best player available."
This actually is sort of what you're talking about but okay...

Quote:
Wright said they had predicted the first four players that would be taken in the draft and had three guys in mind at nine.

"We had those three guys targeted and we weren't moving down," Wright said. "We actually had an opportunity to move down. We decided to make the pick. Those three guys at nine, he was one of them that was available and we're happy that he was."

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Old
07-10-2017, 09:50 PM
  #56
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This actually is sort of what you're talking about but okay...
That doesn't really contradict my point. Like clearly he was their guy, but it doesn't mean the reasons behind them taking him were because he was the best guy available, the verbiage out of Wright's mouth doesn't reflect that. Their priorities were on things that don't really make you a better hockey team, especially when utilizing a top ten pick. "Character," "tough to play against," "and size" aren't quantifiable attributes for a Stanley Cup winner and to prioritize that sort of thing over skill and talent is one of the reasons we are where we are now. An annually regressing bubble team.

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07-10-2017, 10:00 PM
  #57
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I absolutely hate all the running down of the Rasmussen pick. Like, how about relax, he hasn't even played a game for us, or the Griffins yet. All this hate, makes me want him to prove you all wrong so badly.

It is fine if you don't like the pick, but you guys are making it sound like the Wings went way off the board and drafted a projected 7th rounder. He was a projected 10-13 pick and he went up a spot to 9, not exactly way ahead of where he was projected.

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07-10-2017, 10:09 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyborg Yzerberg View Post
That doesn't really contradict my point. Like clearly he was their guy, but it doesn't mean the reasons behind them taking him were because he was the best guy available, the verbiage out of Wright's mouth doesn't reflect that. Their priorities were on things that don't really make you a better hockey team, especially when utilizing a top ten pick. "Character," "tough to play against," "and size" aren't quantifiable attributes for a Stanley Cup winner and to prioritize that sort of thing over skill and talent is one of the reasons we are where we are now. An annually regressing bubble team.
Actually they have been attributes of Stanley Cup winning teams. They weren't of our most recent ones in a huge way, but actually those teams were a little more rugged than they generally get credit for.

Rasmussen has a ton of skills, he was rated as a top 15 player by almost every scouting service, we have covered the few he wasn't there a lot since the draft, but the majority he was there. He was #9 on Bobby Mac's list which is just a compilation of rankings from several pro scouts from various organizations.

You don't like the pick that is perfectly fine. But your attachment of him having no skill isn't something I see and more importantly it isn't something a lot in the business saw either and that goes well beyond the Wings there...

They liked him a lot, they didn't want to move down at that point he was their guy. The guy they felt most comfortable drafting and adding to their puzzle and he has a lot to offer as far as I am concerned. I would have went Necas myself but that isn't the way they went and it doesn't make Rasmussen a bad player at all.


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Old
07-10-2017, 10:10 PM
  #59
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I don't know about that. Like I said he was right on par with Tatar's numbers this season, only difference is Bert is showing more of an upwards trajectory while Tatar was a bit stagnant in the AHL. He may not become as consistent of a scorer as Tatar, but I can easily see him having a prime where he puts up better numbers than guys like Helm/Abby do. He has more skill and scoring ability.
AHL ability isn't always, or even very predictive of NHL success. Ask Pookie about that.

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07-10-2017, 10:15 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Pavels Dog View Post
I don't know about that. Like I said he was right on par with Tatar's numbers this season, only difference is Bert is showing more of an upwards trajectory while Tatar was a bit stagnant in the AHL. He may not become as consistent of a scorer as Tatar, but I can easily see him having a prime where he puts up better numbers than guys like Helm/Abby do. He has more skill and scoring ability.
Tatar had significantly more translatable offensive skill set. I think Bert is a good player, but he doesn't have the release, puck skills or shiftiness of Tatar. He has some other things and can contribute in ways that Tatar doesn't but they aren't like for like comparisons. Thinking of him as an upgrade on Abby or Helm i.e. heavy useful utility players is something I agree with more. Tatar was a top 6 offensive player or bust kind of guy, Bert isn't really like that.

I mean he might reach 40-50 point status but it won't be because he trends like Tatar. It will be because he plays the net front well and continues developing little areas of his game to make a line dynamic.

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07-10-2017, 10:18 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by HisNoodliness View Post
So how are we going to resolve this if it finishes in a tie?
Uhhh...Detroit rules?

Tie goes to the vet.

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07-10-2017, 10:24 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by The Zetterberg Era View Post
Actually they have been attributes of Stanley Cup winning teams. They weren't of our most recent ones in a huge way, but actually those teams were a little more rugged than they generally get credit for.
Stanley Cups are won on the back of the most talented combination of players. The last two Stanley Cups were won by two of the three best players of a generation. The closest thing to a dynasty we saw had the best winger in the NHL, three top pairing defensemen, and a selke caliber center. Sure you need grit to win 16 games in the post season, but you can't overvalue buzz words when you're trying to build a contender. The red wings drafting priorities and hemorrhaging of prospects in conjunction with locking up marginal players is going to keep us in purgatory for the next half a decade.

Quote:
Rasmussen has a ton of skills, he was rated as a top 15 player by almost every scouting service, we have covered the few he wasn't there a lot since the draft, but the majority he was there. He was #9 on Bobby Mac's list which is just a compilation of rankings from several pro scouts from various organizations.
Scouts aren't infallible, and this was the guy more so of anyone in the top ten/fifteen with the most red flags. One scout said he was the most Virtanen of the class. Scouts and GM's overvalue size, and that's how guys like rasmussen get ranked and inevitably taken where they do. This is true of defensemen like Morin or forwards like Virtanen or Crouse. Happens almost every year.

Quote:
You don't like the pick that is perfectly fine. But your attachment of him having no skill isn't something I see and more importantly it isn't something a lot in the business saw either and that goes well beyond the Wings there...
His production, his possession, and his usage all illustrate negative signs, especially for a guy his size playing against peers much smaller than him. He scores mostly garbage goals, doesn't hold the puck for long, and doesn't have much of a pass. These are bad things from a 9th overall pick. Especially when several superior options were available.

Quote:
They liked him a lot, they didn't want to move down at that point he was there guy. The guy they felt most comfortable drafting and adding to their puzzle and he has a lot to offer as far as I am concerned. I would have went Necas myself but that isn't the way they went and it doesn't make Rasmussen a bad player at all.
And it's hard to have faith in anything this braintrust does right now, frankly. They're anachronistic, and the everyone realizes it except for them. We are the Canucks of the east.

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07-10-2017, 10:46 PM
  #63
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Holland already said in Art Regner intterview that he will want to build a good culture first.

Hard-working competitive culture lead by strong characters. Then you add skill players who buy that culture and reach better their potential.

If you add just skill players only but don't care about the culture, it could learn to bad habits which won't get away for decades. Then the group of skill guys will never reach their potential.

I can buy this thinking by 100%. It has happened for me in my job. Years ago, I was a little bit lazy but talented on my work. Most of the people are, they like to be on comfort zone. That's humanity.

When some young kids came in on my workplace, some talented, some with competitive character, I started working more/better level. One did impress me being so good, he felt like generational talent. I was really nice to work with him.

Other guy created a competition in salaries, in somewhat healthy way. We push each other in a good way. I'm the vet who he tries to push off from the "roster" but this vet still has a lot more to give. Hidden potential, which somebody came to push out.

If I think the big picture, the company will now get more out of myself. But if that bad culture would have continued, I would just be taking my paychecks with 50% effort. Because nobody ever came to push me.

Same is happening in hockey teams, it's nothing else than a group of people, just like my work place.

That character thing is for real. Jarmo Kekäläinen (Columbus GM) has talked a lot about the same thing. In equal skill group, he always goes after the strongest character.

Hronek looks like a great character, so does Rasmussen. They both will have big impact in future teams. Not just as an individual, but also they will push others to be better.


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07-10-2017, 11:08 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Henkka View Post
Holland already said in Art Regner intterview that he will want to build a good culture first.

Hard-working competitive culture lead by strong characters. Then you add skill players who buy that culture and reach better their potential.

If you add just skill players only but don't care about the culture, it could learn to bad habits which won't get away for decades. Then the group of skill guys will never reach their potential.

I can buy this thinking by 100%. It has happened for me in my job. Years ago, I was a little bit lazy but talented on my work. Most of the people are, they like to be on comfort zone. That's humanity.

When some young kids came in on my workplace, some talented, some with competitive character, I started working more/better level. One did impress me being so good, he felt like generational talent. I was really nice to work with him.

Other guy created a competition in salaries, in somewhat healthy way. We push each other in a good way. I'm the vet who he tries to push off from the "roster" but this vet still has a lot more to give. Hidden potential, which somebody came to push out.

If I think the big picture, the company will now get more out of myself. But if that bad culture would have continued, I would just be taking my paychecks with 50% effort. Because nobody ever came to push me.

Same is happening in hockey teams, it's nothing else than a group of people, just like my work place.

That character thing is for real. Jarmo Kekäläinen (Columbus GM) has talked a lot about the same thing. In equal skill group, he always goes after the strongest character.

Hronek looks like a great character, so does Rasmussen. They both will have big impact in future teams. Not just as an individual, but also they will push others to be better.

Skill is the hardest thing to add to a team. It is the most valuable asset. There are only so many first line and top pairing guys in this league. A good guy is nowhere near as difficult to find. Don't get me wrong, my favorite players are the good guys. Yzerman, Shanahan, and Zetterberg are my three favorite hockey players ever and they are good guys. But they're also hall of famers, and because we're not drafting all star caliber players and opting for good guys, we're going to be a team of good guys that miss the playoffs.

As for Jarmo, I don't think he's a great GM. He's not bad, but I don't think he's great either.

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07-10-2017, 11:25 PM
  #65
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Yzerman, Shanahan, Zetterberg were all skilled and at same time, great characters. God-given talents. Competition finding these guys nowadays is extremely difficult.

You have to know the personality also. And it's very hard to find that skill + character combination.

I think it's great to build the right culture first, which skill guys with "not-so-sure character" will learn. That will lead to best overall results.

And be a little bit of lucky to find that next Yzerman or Zetterberg somewhere.

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Old
07-10-2017, 11:54 PM
  #66
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Don't no but the next round should go quickly
Let's just skip the next round and go to #4

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Old
07-11-2017, 07:29 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Cyborg Yzerberg View Post
Skill is the hardest thing to add to a team. It is the most valuable asset. There are only so many first line and top pairing guys in this league. A good guy is nowhere near as difficult to find. Don't get me wrong, my favorite players are the good guys. Yzerman, Shanahan, and Zetterberg are my three favorite hockey players ever and they are good guys. But they're also hall of famers, and because we're not drafting all star caliber players and opting for good guys, we're going to be a team of good guys that miss the playoffs.
You seem to think we're choosing between Ovechkins and Luke Glendenings and always opting for Glendenings. In reality we're picking between different types of flawed players, and we don't always go for the same types. Which makes sense unless you want a team full of only small, soft, skilled guys, or big, physical grinders.
Wings have always liked character guys, but not at the expense of actual tools that can make them good hockey players. For every Helm or Abdelkader, there's picks like Jurco/Sproul/Tatar/Nyquist/Athanasiou/Mrazek who are more pure skill types. Cholowski, Svechnikov, Mantha, none of them are unskilled "good guys".. even Larkin was drafted because they saw more offense and skill than many thought he had, which turned out to be true. They've picked up Hronek, Saarijarvi and Hicketts, none taken for size or only character.

Rasmussen has the tools to become a very good player, just because his size and character are two of his biggest assets doesn't mean he lacks everything else.

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07-11-2017, 07:55 AM
  #68
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Wow, the poll finished even.

Tie goes to the veteran, as usual.

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07-11-2017, 08:01 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Pavels Dog View Post
You seem to think we're choosing between Ovechkins and Luke Glendenings and always opting for Glendenings. In reality we're picking between different types of flawed players, and we don't always go for the same types. Which makes sense unless you want a team full of only small, soft, skilled guys, or big, physical grinders.
Wings have always liked character guys, but not at the expense of actual tools that can make them good hockey players. For every Helm or Abdelkader, there's picks like Jurco/Sproul/Tatar/Nyquist/Athanasiou/Mrazek who are more pure skill types. Cholowski, Svechnikov, Mantha, none of them are unskilled "good guys".. even Larkin was drafted because they saw more offense and skill than many thought he had, which turned out to be true. They've picked up Hronek, Saarijarvi and Hicketts, none taken for size or only character.

Rasmussen has the tools to become a very good player, just because his size and character are two of his biggest assets doesn't mean he lacks everything else.
But we have that dimension covered well with all the forwards picks we have been making with our 2nd-7th rounders.

Bertuzzi, Givani Smith, Pearson, Gallant, Zablocki, etc.

With our first pick I think we should be going for the most skilled guy possible, I agree with Cyborg there.

I'm starting to warm up to the defensive prospects with Hronek, Cholowski, Saarijarvi, Sambrook... I like the skill set of that group in relation to what this team is missing.

But we really, REALLY need to prioritize taking some forwards with better puck skills and setup ability to add to the mix. Even if it's a 5'8" guy like Mason Shaw, or a "character issue" guy like Ho-Sang, I don't care. It's an element I don't see well represented on this team or in the pipeline.

Wright was really starting to win me over with the Svechnikov, Saarijarvi, Hronek picks but I really don't get the thought process with this draft or the surrounding comments at all.


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07-11-2017, 09:00 AM
  #70
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Ok, so Wright doesn't disagree with me... but why was this not a priority?

Quote:
"I'm actually thinking about what we have to draft next year. We're going to get a little bit more of an emphasis on higher-end skill, maybe get a little bit riskier in the forward position," Wright said. "We wanted to address it. We addressed defense this year because we deemed as a staff to be a fairly deep defense draft.
Like bud, this should be the priority EVERY year. Until you have the elite players, you should be taking as many kicks at the can on risky high end skill guys as possible, THEN worry about taking some big or gritty two way guys to supplement them.

https://www.nhl.com/redwings/news/ty...re/c-290352472


Last edited by Frk It: 07-11-2017 at 09:32 AM.
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07-11-2017, 09:04 AM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Frk It View Post
Ok, so Wright doesn't disagree with me... but why was this not a priority?



Like bud, this should be the priority EVERY year.

https://www.nhl.com/redwings/news/ty...re/c-290352472
Isn't the defense better next year?

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07-11-2017, 09:31 AM
  #72
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Ok, so Wright doesn't disagree with me... but why was this not a priority?



Like bud, this should be the priority EVERY year.

[url]
Because you can't go high-risk, high reward every year. Especially with picking 15-20 like they did for so long.

You also can't always go skill, skill, skill. I know it'll be blown out of proportion, but organizational fit and player "character" is an important part of the eval. Yzerman was skilled as the day is long... but he was also one of the hardest workers on the ice with a motor that didn't quit. He finished Cup seasons on one half of a good knee. Keith Primeau probably had more skill than most of the Wings of the 90s, but he was a gutless loser.

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07-11-2017, 09:32 AM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Frk It View Post
Ok, so Wright doesn't disagree with me... but why was this not a priority?



Like bud, this should be the priority EVERY year.

https://www.nhl.com/redwings/news/ty...re/c-290352472
Well at least he does recognize that we're going to need some creativity eventually. They're not entirely committed to a skill-less bunch of giants.

Hopefully he doesn't think that our D is complete after this year though. I'm glad that we've gone with the shotgun method the last couple of years by using tons of picks on D but we still need a couple of blue chip prospects on the backline. On the other hand I'd say our forward core is fine for now, only missing a guy to be our 1C (plus hopefully a high IQ winger or two comes out of a mid-round, Nyquist style) down the road but IMO those pieces can wait until we have at least 1 guy who projects to play on our first pairing. Hopefully the lottery gods do us a huge favor and Dahlin becomes a Wing. I'd cry.

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07-11-2017, 09:57 AM
  #74
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Because you can't go high-risk, high reward every year. Especially with picking 15-20 like they did for so long.

You also can't always go skill, skill, skill. I know it'll be blown out of proportion, but organizational fit and player "character" is an important part of the eval. Yzerman was skilled as the day is long... but he was also one of the hardest workers on the ice with a motor that didn't quit. He finished Cup seasons on one half of a good knee. Keith Primeau probably had more skill than most of the Wings of the 90s, but he was a gutless loser.
But why can't we at this point in time? We were terrible last year. Now is the time to take risks. We should be taking lots of them.

If you don't want to go all out for top 5 picks (tank), we need to take risks. We aren't going to play it safe and turn this team around.

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07-11-2017, 10:17 AM
  #75
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I guess I just don't get all the ceiling talk. I think his ceiling is absolutely a 1C, I don't see how you can think any less. You can say the probability that he reaches it is less than other top 15 picks, but I wouldn't say he has the lowest ceiling. How the **** can you say this 18 year old kid's tip top is a second liner? He has plenty of tools if he puts everything together there's no doubt in my mind he can be a top line player.

Ceiling predictions are a useless as draft predictions, yea they can be fun and all but when all said and done it has no bearing on actuality - poor opinion based writing. Seriously? 3rd line ceiling ... give me a break.

Svech only got the nod from me due to his second half of his first pro season.

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