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Markov : Would you marry me thread?

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Old
07-16-2017, 07:05 PM
  #176
Andrei79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
You should check Weber's stats with and without Emelin

I will use what I saw last year compared to whatever any NHL player says in an interview when asked a question about a teammate. Here is someone else explaining it, if you even care to read it since it wasn't Josi.

Here is an article with videos explaining Weber's breakout pass.
I won't repeat what E=CH2 said, thoughI disagree he has a "great" first pass (Pronger, Ristolainen,Markov, Doughty, Subban have a "great" first pass), he does fall in the definition of a "good" first pass and definitely in the upper tier of our D's outside Markov. It's former teammate by the way and not an interview, but an article on "elite" skills on the Preds, he went out of his way to add Weber though, first pass included.

As for Emelin, where is the "disaster"?

From those stats, it definitely concludes what we saw, his pairing with Petry certainly was a disaster. But with Weber, not great, brings him down for sure, which every Weber fan claimed, but far from disastrous and doesn't really further your point.

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07-16-2017, 07:09 PM
  #177
One Less Louise
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Originally Posted by Andrei79 View Post
I won't repeat what E=CH2 said, thoughI disagree he has a "great" first pass (Pronger, Ristolainen,Markov, Doughty, Subban have a "great" first pass), he does fall in the definition of a "good" first pass and definitely in the upper tier of our D's outside Markov. It's former teammate by the way and not an interview, but an article on "elite" skills on the Preds, he went out of his way to add Weber though, first pass included.
What I mean by great is % of successful plays. Not that he can spring you on a breakaway from the D zone like Subban/Markov can do at times. But those type of plays rarely ever happens in the playoffs against good teams anyway and are kind of worthless in reality when it matters. Even in the regular season, I've been seeing fewer and fewer of those plays happen with or against the habs and in games not involving the habs too.

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07-16-2017, 07:21 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by DramaticGloveSave View Post
There's no way that:

Markov-Weber
Alzner-Petry
Schlemko-Benn
(Davidson-Jerabek-Lernout-Morrow)

Is an "average D-core"

Weber is THE prototypical #1. Markov a top flight #2. Petry a very good #3. Alzner a very good #4. And Schlemko-Benn is a top flight 3rd pairing.

That's a top 10 d-core, arguably top 5.
This just isn't true.

Markov falls apart come playoff time every year. He is good in the regular season no doubt but never can seem to bring the same level of play when it really matters. I also don't think he is coming back so he won't even be a factor.

Weber is a great defender but I wouldn't call him the prototypical #1 in todays NHL. He simply doesn't provide the offence at 5v5 that other #1's do. You can say he makes up for it in other ways, which I would agree with but I still don't think he is the guy you want to play with a bunch of other shutdown D.

Alzner is a glorified 3rd pairing defender that also contributes 0 offence 5v5 or anywhere for that matter. I really don't like him as a player.

Anyway I think that D core without Markov is average at best. MB is going to have to make a move.

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07-16-2017, 07:31 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by Uncle Gary View Post
Markov falls apart come playoff time every year.
I'm glad someone is putting it out there, especially in the last playoffs, our 38-year old was manhandled and was far from effective. Enough of that.

Quote:
He is good in the regular season no doubt but never can seem to bring the same level of play when it really matters. I also don't think he is coming back so he won't even be a factor.
He was at his best in the first half but no matter who coaches him, he will be overused on account of a glaring lack of skills by other players to bring what he does. Going into the next season with a player who will turn 39 at the end of this year and seeing his name showing up as a first pairing D in all the fake lineups people post here, is beyond comprehension.

Quote:
MB is going to have to make a move.
Five years of hope squeezed into two months of coming up with big moves. Hope is not a plan.


Last edited by Runner77: 07-16-2017 at 07:38 PM.
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Old
07-16-2017, 07:44 PM
  #180
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Every year, Markov is always out of gas come the playoffs...every year he gets over-used during the season......................now, 38 yrs old, if he does re-sign, he really needs to have his minutes lessened, so he can handle the playoffs...

Will he be back? I do think so guys, I really do...

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07-16-2017, 07:49 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
I will leave it at this:

Alzner - Weber pair will lead the league in icing, have the most obvious break out passing in the league. Neither of them have a good first pass. They will play the most minutes. This is a recipe for disaster.
Not a fan of that pairing, BUT with Julien's breakout system, the Ds don't have to make very long passes. Forwards are usually providing close support. It's a different breakout system than what we were accustomed to over the last five seasons.

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07-16-2017, 07:52 PM
  #182
DAChampion
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Alzner seems like an obvious partner with Petry ...

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Old
07-16-2017, 08:01 PM
  #183
CrAzYNiNe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by One Less Louise View Post
You think Emelin did all the work last year ? Weber played nearly half the year with Emelin and it really didn't seem to be a problem at all. Is Emelin suddenly some great PMD now ?

It's another one of those pre-digested line of thinking brought on by advanced stats that just doesn't actually mean anything in practice and fails to take into account multiple factors.
No it's really not about any type of advanced stats, as I rarely think they say much of anything without context. Corsi, fenwick... I tend to stay away from those stats.

Some stats, like 5on5 stats with and without a player do scream that Weber had more success without Emelin. Weber was much higher GF60 and much lower GA60 without Emelin. Why do you think this happens? From what I saw was they played very effectively on D, but they didn't help generate much offense off the rush. The Habs should not be a dump and chase team, they simply don't have the personnel.

This all comes back to my argument that the Habs, given they play very reliable defense, aka Carey Price, they need to improve on offense. Well if you don't have an effective transition game, that utilizes your forwards strength, we will effectively see the Habs struggle against playoff teams (26th in total goals vs playoff teams last year with 97 in 41 gp, 25th in average goal for with 2.37 GPG)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrei79 View Post
I won't repeat what E=CH2 said, thoughI disagree he has a "great" first pass (Pronger, Ristolainen,Markov, Doughty, Subban have a "great" first pass), he does fall in the definition of a "good" first pass and definitely in the upper tier of our D's outside Markov. It's former teammate by the way and not an interview, but an article on "elite" skills on the Preds, he went out of his way to add Weber though, first pass included.

As for Emelin, where is the "disaster"?

From those stats, it definitely concludes what we saw, his pairing with Petry certainly was a disaster. But with Weber, not great, brings him down for sure, which every Weber fan claimed, but far from disastrous and doesn't really further your point.
Your right. Let's pair our best D with someone that brings him down. Success follows. These players are all NHL players, some do things better than others. However you have not addressed the break out, transition game when talking about Emelin-Weber pair. Weber was far more productive offensively and defensively 5on5 without Emelin... So what else do I need to prove?

Quote:
Originally Posted by One Less Louise View Post
What I mean by great is % of successful plays. Not that he can spring you on a breakaway from the D zone like Subban/Markov can do at times. But those type of plays rarely ever happens in the playoffs against good teams anyway and are kind of worthless in reality when it matters. Even in the regular season, I've been seeing fewer and fewer of those plays happen with or against the habs and in games not involving the habs too.
They rarely happened? A good stretch pass doesn't need to result in a breakaway, or even an odd man rush. What a good stretch pass does is it gives the forward space to enter the zone with the puck on his stick with a bit of space. That does happen when you have D that are capable of making plays beyond the high percentage pass to their D partner.

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Old
07-16-2017, 08:02 PM
  #184
One Less Louise
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Alzner seems like an obvious partner with Petry ...
In an ideal world, Alzner would indeed fit well with Petry, if we had a Fowler or Suter to play with Weber.

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07-16-2017, 08:04 PM
  #185
CrAzYNiNe
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Originally Posted by deandebean View Post
Not a fan of that pairing, BUT with Julien's breakout system, the Ds don't have to make very long passes. Forwards are usually providing close support. It's a different breakout system than what we were accustomed to over the last five seasons.
This doesn't inspire me with optimism. This is undoubtedly lead to a dump and chase if the forwards are glued to their blue line, by the time they get to the red line, the others teams center will squeeze them into a dump.

I guess I just have higher expectations for a team that will score 3 goals or more in games more often then not (41-41 last year, 20th in the NHL last year)

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07-17-2017, 05:12 PM
  #186
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Eklund has the Leafs talking to Markov??? There is no way, especially after they signed Hainsey...

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07-17-2017, 06:45 PM
  #187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Alzner seems like an obvious partner with Petry ...
Markov signed or not, I think they will try Jerabek with Weber. If that pairing works, Alzner will play with Petry.

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07-17-2017, 06:46 PM
  #188
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Originally Posted by BLONG7 View Post
Eklund has the Leafs talking to Markov??? There is no way, especially after they signed Hainsey...
Imagine wanting to write something that will get two of the biggest NHL fanbases talking.

Markov to Toronto is perfect.

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07-17-2017, 07:08 PM
  #189
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Originally Posted by One Less Louise View Post
You think Emelin did all the work last year ? Weber played nearly half the year with Emelin and it really didn't seem to be a problem at all. Is Emelin suddenly some great PMD now ?
Did it work when it mattered?

Answer is no.

We have been first 40 games heroes for 2 years now. Enough is enough.

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07-17-2017, 07:21 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by No Team Needed View Post
Imagine wanting to write something that will get two of the biggest NHL fanbases talking.

Markov to Toronto is perfect.
Can't see how they can afford him. They are over the cap and have to sign Conner Brown.

They can LTIR some guys but if Markov really wants 5-6 Mill I don't see that fitting in.

(though they can always trade someone like JVR/Bozak to make room).

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07-17-2017, 07:23 PM
  #191
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Originally Posted by One Less Louise View Post
Weber has a great first pass. It's safe and efficient. I don't know what you're talking about. He actually has one of the highest % first pass in the league in the D zone. I don't know about Alzner but I suspect more of the same.

My prediction :

Both will make simple efficient plays and rely on their forwards for creating offense. This will mean our forwards won't be able to cheat. It won't really cause any problems at all. Last time I checked a lot of the best teams in the league were leading in icings and it was a complete non factor. But of course we won't be one of the highest scoring teams in the league.
There's nothing "great" about Weber's first pass. Most of the time he dishes it off to his own defense partner. He's not terrible but he's far from great. Transition is not his strength.

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07-17-2017, 07:45 PM
  #192
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Originally Posted by LaP View Post
Did it work when it mattered?

Answer is no.

We have been first 40 games heroes for 2 years now. Enough is enough.
Even with Subban in the line up...

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07-17-2017, 08:36 PM
  #193
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He's most likely coming back and on a favorable deal for us, unless MB ****s up again.

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07-17-2017, 08:39 PM
  #194
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Originally Posted by Victorius View Post
Even with Subban in the line up...
Subban has been a playoff warrior over his entire career.

The Habs saw two conference finals that they would not have seen without Subban.

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07-17-2017, 08:47 PM
  #195
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Even with Subban in the line up...
even with Price in the lineup.

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07-17-2017, 08:58 PM
  #196
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Subban has been a playoff warrior over his entire career.

The Habs saw two conference finals that they would not have seen without Subban.
Agreed and a very good point.

And in his first year in Nashville, they got to the Stanley Cup finals for the first time in forever. But that's all just coincidence.

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07-17-2017, 09:11 PM
  #197
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He's most likely coming back and on a favorable deal for us, unless MB ****s up again.
I hear that Markov is in talks with Toronto. Good for him.

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07-17-2017, 09:14 PM
  #198
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I can't help myself thinking that Markov will come back. If he wasn't, Bergevin would have done something with the cap space already.

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07-17-2017, 09:14 PM
  #199
CrAzYNiNe
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I hear that Markov is in talks with Toronto. Good for him.
In talks? I doubt it. Leafs spoke to Markov? Sure, why not.

Conversation goes like this: Hey Markov congratualation on getting married, having fun on your honeymoon? That's great to hear. We couldn't help but notice that you haven't signed with the Habs... What would it take you to get you in blue and white? Ok great Markov, thanks for chatting. I will talk to Lou and we will get back to you. Enjoy the rest of your honeymoon, save some of that energy for the ice.

Nothing to see here folks.

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07-17-2017, 09:16 PM
  #200
CrAzYNiNe
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I can't help myself thinking that Markov will come back. If he wasn't, Bergevin would have done something with the cap space already.
You really don't believe that?

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