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Old
07-12-2017, 12:33 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by BaseballCoach View Post
The Habs might have to hope that long-term Galchenyuk is their 1C and Danault their 2/3C, and look to the trade market to acquire a #2C who is overpaid but whose salary fits within the Habs' cap space right now and who could slide to #3 over time.

...

Summary: There are some possibilities here. The GM needs to kick every tire to see what might be doable. His job may be at stake. Geoff Molson will probably not wait too much longer without results.
Thanks for putting together the list and for your comments.

Just like you came up with a list in short order, where was MB's list during the 5 years prior? That's just the thing, why do we need to be in extremis once again. How has this not been attended sooner? Bergevin's entourage has not changed during that whole time, they've all been promoted or extended. Maybe someone new needs to come in, to change their approach and targets.

Not liking the fact of being at this juncture. However, there is cap space and a bit of time ahead. I'm hoping he can swing something with a cap strapped team.

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07-12-2017, 12:38 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Runner77 View Post
Thanks for putting together the list and for your comments.

Just like you came up with a list in short order, where was MB's list during the 5 years prior? That's just the thing, why do we need to be in extremis once again. How has this not been attended sooner? Bergevin's entourage has not changed during that whole time, they've all been promoted or extended. Maybe someone new needs to come in, to change their approach and targets.

Not liking the fact of being at this juncture. However, there is cap space and a bit of time ahead. I'm hoping he can swing something with a cap strapped team.
While these are valid concerns...what is the purpose of these questions?

We are in the situation we're in...that's a fact. What purpose does it serve to ask why we got here, we got here because the GM in charge allowed it to get to this point.

As you said, we have cap space and time, isn't it more productive to discuss potential solutions, rather than rehash what we've all be rehashing for years?

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07-12-2017, 12:43 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
While these are valid concerns...what is the purpose of these questions?

We are in the situation we're in...that's a fact. What purpose does it serve to ask why we got here, we got here because the GM in charge allowed it to get to this point.

As you said, we have cap space and time, isn't it more productive to discuss potential solutions, rather than rehash what we've all be rehashing for years?
Accountability was raised as part of the post I was responding to:

Quote:
Summary: There are some possibilities here. The GM needs to kick every tire to see what might be doable. His job may be at stake. Geoff Molson will probably not wait too much longer without results.

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07-12-2017, 12:47 PM
  #29
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Accountability was raised as part of the post I was responding to:
But everyone knows whose accountable..

It just seems that on these boards, the conversation never gets past that.

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07-12-2017, 12:57 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
But everyone knows whose accountable..

It just seems that on these boards, the conversation never gets past that.
Just like when people post line configurations, they also try to see where there could be an organizational change without totally blowing the whole thing apart, even if some posters are suggesting we do just that.

Can't put posters down for voicing concerns, it's their way of hoping for better days. There are many ways to go, we can't all have the same perspective on how to get there.

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07-12-2017, 01:01 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Runner77 View Post
Thanks for putting together the list and for your comments.

Just like you came up with a list in short order, where was MB's list during the 5 years prior? That's just the thing, why do we need to be in extremis once again. How has this not been attended sooner? Bergevin's entourage has not changed during that whole time, they've all been promoted or extended. Maybe someone new needs to come in, to change their approach and targets.

Not liking the fact of being at this juncture. However, there is cap space and a bit of time ahead. I'm hoping he can swing something with a cap strapped team.
What exactly that list accomplishes?

Why would the Kings trade Carter?
Why would the Canes trade Staal?
Why would the Sharks trade Couture?
Why would the Blues trade Stastny?
Why would the Stars trade Spezza?

This is futile...

The only guy that we know is available for sure out there is Duchene and Sakic wants a massive overpayment...

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07-12-2017, 01:05 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Belial View Post
What exactly that list accomplishes?

Why would the Kings trade Carter?
Why would the Canes trade Staal?
Why would the Sharks trade Couture?
Why would the Blues trade Stastny?
Why would the Stars trade Spezza?

This is futile...

The only guy that we know is available for sure out there is Duchene and Sakic wants a massive overpayment...
At some point Sakic may get a clue.

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07-12-2017, 01:06 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Runner77 View Post
Just like when people post line configurations, they also try to see where there could be an organizational change without totally blowing the whole thing apart, even if some posters are suggesting we do just that.

Can't put posters down for voicing concerns, it's their way of hoping for better days. There are many ways to go, we can't all have the same perspective on how to get there.
Very key point! Some are exaggerating how bad we are to astronomical levels though. Nothing wrong with voicing concerns but the things people say are creating a very bad culture in Habs land. Most of my battles are about exaggeration and I will always stand against it as a die hard Habs fan.

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07-12-2017, 01:08 PM
  #34
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At some point Sakic may get a clue.
Duchene may be the longest serving "On the Block trade rumor" in the history of the NHL? lol

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07-12-2017, 01:10 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Belial View Post
What exactly that list accomplishes?

...
That's a lot of insider speculation. It's not our job to follow leads however, you can choose to believe that Bergevin did not have any opportunities to land a top 6 center in 5 years, if you wish.

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07-12-2017, 01:10 PM
  #36
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I'll be honest, I find his scoring is largely against under performing teams. Last year alone he only had 11 goals against playoff teams. It also showed in the playoff.

I understand the amount of factors that go into this degree of criticism, however I also see a quality player that may fetch a good return. I would love to see him get that #1C and see what happens, but if anyone is worth that much quality in the eyes of other NHL GMs, he may be that piece. With Drouin, Galchenyuk and Lehkonen, I think the left side is well taken care of.
The problem with your argument is that it relies on Patches success being contingent in scoring on lowly teams. Than why don't most guys score 30+ year in and year out like he does considering there playing the same opponents?

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07-12-2017, 01:13 PM
  #37
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Very key point! Some are exaggerating how bad we are to astronomical levels though. Nothing wrong with voicing concerns but the things people say are creating a very bad culture in Habs land. Most of my battles are about exaggeration and I will always stand against it as a die hard Habs fan.
There are extreme comments on both sides but some posters are irate as they don't see the end of the tunnel and believe that there is too much improvisation in the way Bergevin is building the team relative to the team's roster composition at this stage in his tenure. I think he needs another Drouin type move, but doesn't have a blue chip prospect to dangle, so not sure how he gets it done.

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07-12-2017, 01:24 PM
  #38
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There are extreme comments on both sides but some posters are irate as they don't see the end of the tunnel and believe that there is too much improvisation in the way Bergevin is building the team relative to the team's roster composition at this stage in his tenure. I think he needs another Drouin type move, but doesn't have a blue chip prospect to dangle, so not sure how he gets it done.
The issue is expectations. We expect to fix all our problems in one trade deadline or one off season. It just doesn't work that way. I think we got slightly better this off season with better team depth and a very good draft. I believe we are trending in the right direction but it's a very modest improvement from year to year. Some fans just want more impact full changes and it's just not that easy to do in today's NHL.

- We will try Galchenyuk again as our #1C. It's our only legit option.

- We may have to learn to deal without Markov sooner than we though? Time will tell.

- Defense is solid but lacks offensive type guys. We will survive IMO.

- Lets see how our 25 and under players grow this season.

- We lost Radulov. **** Radulov lol

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07-12-2017, 01:26 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
At some point Sakic may get a clue.
I think he hopes someone gets desperate enough and overpays but the time is working against him for sure. More he's waiting more the value goes down...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Runner77 View Post
That's a lot of insider speculation. It's not our job to follow leads however, you can choose to believe that Bergevin did not have any opportunities to land a top 6 center in 5 years, if you wish.
If what we're hearing all the time is true and Bergevin is on the phone 24/7 kicking tires and inquiring on everything and everyone around the league than yeah, I think if someone would've been available and the price made sense he would've already pulled the trigger.

But you think he's an incompetent moron so this can't be the case according to you.

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07-12-2017, 01:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Belial View Post
What exactly that list accomplishes?

Why would the Kings trade Carter?
Why would the Canes trade Staal?
Why would the Sharks trade Couture?
Why would the Blues trade Stastny?
Why would the Stars trade Spezza?

This is futile...

The only guy that we know is available for sure out there is Duchene and Sakic wants a massive overpayment...
If you think about it, all the discussion here is futile, if you take that attitude. Of course what is written here won't change a damn thing. Thank for the clarification.

Speculation is the fuel that powers this place, after all. Maybe those guys are available for the right offer. Why wouldn't they be?

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07-12-2017, 02:19 PM
  #41
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I think you'll find that most players tend to score more against worse teams.
That's not something I would even argue against. Pacioretty and his goal scoring woes against top teams is a microcosm of the Habs problems at large.

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Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
The problem with your argument is that it relies on Patches success being contingent in scoring on lowly teams. Than why don't most guys score 30+ year in and year out like he does considering there playing the same opponents?
The Habs beat up bad teams and struggle against good teams.

This year alone, the Habs had the following stats:

Against Playoff teams:
  • In 41 games habs scored 3 or more only 16 times. They went 13-1-2 (62 goals).
  • They scored 2 or less goals in 25 games: 7-15-3 (0.34 PTS%) (35 goals).
  • In the 21 losses, they scored 30 goals.
  • In the 20 wins, they scored 67 goals.

Against non-Playoff teams:
  • In 41 games habs scored 3 or more 25 times. They went 23-0-2 (109 goals).
  • They scored 2 or less goals in 16 games: 4-10-2 (0.3125 PTS%) (20 goals).
  • In the 14 losses, they scored 18 goals.
  • In the 27 wins, they scored 111 goals.

That is a substantial difference in goal scoring against playoff teams and against non playoff teams. That's what bugs me the most about this team and the GM, we have the opportunity to go far, if we can get the right pieces. With Markov gone/leaving/last leg we squandered the last of the Habs quality PMD. By finding ways to increase scoring, this team would be a force to be reckoned with... But yet again we sit here discussing holes in the top6, missing quality center/centers, huge hole on D that I find difficult for a 38 year old Markov to fill.

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07-12-2017, 02:39 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
That's not something I would even argue against. Pacioretty and his goal scoring woes against top teams is a microcosm of the Habs problems at large.



The Habs beat up bad teams and struggle against good teams.

This year alone, the Habs had the following stats:

Against Playoff teams:
  • In 41 games habs scored 3 or more only 16 times. They went 13-1-2 (62 goals).
  • They scored 2 or less goals in 25 games: 7-15-3 (0.34 PTS%) (35 goals).
  • In the 21 losses, they scored 30 goals.
  • In the 20 wins, they scored 67 goals.

Against non-Playoff teams:
  • In 41 games habs scored 3 or more 25 times. They went 23-0-2 (109 goals).
  • They scored 2 or less goals in 16 games: 4-10-2 (0.3125 PTS%) (20 goals).
  • In the 14 losses, they scored 18 goals.
  • In the 27 wins, they scored 111 goals.

That is a substantial difference in goal scoring against playoff teams and against non playoff teams. That's what bugs me the most about this team and the GM, we have the opportunity to go far, if we can get the right pieces. With Markov gone/leaving/last leg we squandered the last of the Habs quality PMD. By finding ways to increase scoring, this team would be a force to be reckoned with... But yet again we sit here discussing holes in the top6, missing quality center/centers, huge hole on D that I find difficult for a 38 year old Markov to fill.
I can see you out a lot of work into this so I dont want to sound flippant but my point still stands.

Why doesn't everyone score 30+ goals considering every team players the same teams all year? Patches is one of only a hand full of players that does this. Do you think Ovechkin, Pavelski, Crosby etc etc etc score all of their goals against the top teams only? Is it better that Parxhes doesn't score against those teams and we lose to them because we can't score?

Just saying, you data is sound but your logic is flawed.

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Old
07-12-2017, 02:46 PM
  #43
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While taking a nap I had a dream that the Habs acquired Sam Reinhart and signed Shane Doan (in addition to moving Plekanec and bringing back Markov). Now take it for what it's worth but the last time I had a dream about something happening, it was about me going on a date with this girl, whom I did end up going out with a week later.

Pacioretty - Danault - Gallagher
Lehkonen - Galchenyuk - Drouin
Byron - Reinhart - Hemsky
McCarron - Shaw - Doan

Markov - Weber
Alzner - Petry
Schlemko - Benn

Price - Lindgren

Looks pretty good to me

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07-12-2017, 02:47 PM
  #44
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I can see you out a lot of work into this so I dont want to sound flippant but my point still stands.

Why doesn't everyone score 30+ goals considering every team players the same teams all year? Patches is one of only a hand full of players that does this. Do you think Ovechkin, Pavelski, Crosby etc etc etc score all of their goals against the top teams only? Is it better that Parxhes doesn't score against those teams and we lose to them because we can't score?

Just saying, you data is sound but your logic is flawed.
I believe his scoring woes is a microcosm of the Habs inability to consistently score against good teams. If the Habs continue to think that this failing game plan will miraculously work one day... This is why I believe it to be the perfect moment to trade Pacioretty. With Drouin and Galchenyuk, we have a very good young base of proven players. Gallagher also has shown that he can be a top end talent. I worry about his injuries, but I won't write him off. Lehkonen just kept getting better last year, I was very impressed with his progress. But what do all these guys have in common? Wingers. We need a center. I feel that if a deal can be struck with Pacioretty going the other way, and we get a significant Center piece, the Habs need to listen.

The Habs will never get over the hump as long as they doubt Galchenyuk as a center or have Danault and Plekanec as your 1/2 punch. Something needs to give.

If MB pulls off a miracle and can acquire an impact center for futures alone, amazing. Not sure that is very likely.

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07-12-2017, 02:59 PM
  #45
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The Habs might have to hope that long-term Galchenyuk is their 1C and Danault their 2/3C, and look to the trade market to acquire a #2C who is overpaid but whose salary fits within the Habs' cap space right now and who could slide to #3 over time.

Jordan Staal (28) at $6M x 6?
Maybe, but what would CAR want back?
I like this option because of his experience and his track record. He would give habs solid depth at center with Galchenyuk and Danault remaining in the fold. It would be more of a center by committee.

Quote:
Claude Giroux (29) at $8.275M x 5?
Could live with cap hit short-term but is this too many years for a guy with sliding production? Would Philly retain a bit?

Jeff Carter (32) at $5.875M x 5?
Possible. The return required is key.

Henrik Zetterberg (36) at $6.083M x 4?
Is Detroit ready to rebuild? If so, this could be interesting out of left field.
Could the Habs offer enough young assets without crippling the team?
This group is old and getting older as you go down the list. Zetts is an absolute no for me at this point unless the Wings take some of that cap hit.

Giroux has hockey left in him imo, and he is by far the youngest of this grouping when his contract is over.
Quote:
Alex Killorn (27) at $4.45M x 6?
Is he a real #2C?

Tyler Bozak (31) at $4.25M x 1?
Possible short-term solution, if obtainable cheap

Nick Foligno (29) at $5.5M x 5?
I see him as a #2C, but is he untouchable in CBJ?
this group is an upgrade on what habs have already but not going to push this team where it needs to go. Honestly for me it is a no across the board here.

Quote:
Brandon Dubinsky (31) at $5.85M x 5?
Will he remain a 40 point guy? Or is that too much term?
Could he be had without sacrificing a core piece? Intriguing.
This is one of my favourite options because this could be a cost saving move by the Blue Jackets and may not cost much to bring him in. Doesn't put up killer points but is big and has a nasty side.
Quote:
Travis Zajac (32) at $5.75M x 4?
Some term risk, but perhaps the right type of target in terms of high-ish cap hit therefore low cost to acquire.

Adam Henrique (27) at $4.0M x 2?
NJ would probably want young cost-controlled assets. Feasibility depends on whether NJ sees themselves re-signing him in 2 years.

Artem Anisimov (29) at $4.55M x 4?
Would Chicago even consider moving what might be their 2C for the next few years?

Matt Duchene (26) at $6.0M x 2?
Lots written about this one, not sure if Colorado is truly motivated to deal.
And player's production lately is scary.

Jason Spezza (34) at $7.5M x 2?
Dallas has other productive Cs now, maybe they try to dump salary?

Paul Stastny (31) at $7.0M x 1?
Overpaid now, if STL feels they can't re-sign him, they might trade for futures

Mathieu Perreault (29) at $4.125M x 4?
Maybe brings enough value for his contract that WPG not interested in moving him

Mikael Backlund (28) at 3.575M x 1?
If Calgary is committed to Sam Bennett, Backlund might be expendable.
Otherwise Habs could try to pry Bennett free so that CGY is not forced to pay him big bucks.

Ryan Nugent-Hopkins (24) at $6.0M x 4
Again, much written.
Could be a good target given his 43 points last year and future projected role.

Logan Couture (28) at $6.0M x 2
Does SJ seem him as overpaid and not likely to re-sign in 2 years.
If so, they might consider offers, but I think they intend to keep him.

Henrik Sedin (36) at $7.0M x 1
Is Vancouver ready to cut ties for future assets?
Can Montreal handle both Sedins under the cap?
If Plekanec goes the other way, why should Vancouver do this?
I doubt a fit is here.

Summary: There are some possibilities here. The GM needs to kick every tire to see what might be doable. His job may be at stake. Geoff Molson will probably not wait too much longer without results.
The rest here, Duchene, Nugent Hopkins, Couture and Statsny are the most interesting of the entire list. If you could get any of these guys you should. Statsny's numbers have been on decline for some time though.

Sedin is on the back 9 imo still an upgrade on Plekanec however. But I don't like his numbers of late and especially his track record in the playoffs he seems to put numbers but not personality out there.

Perreault would add some depth to center so I wouldn't be against adding him.

Spezza is a no because I don't think he can have the gas to play important minutes for this team and carry the offense down the middle deep into a playoff run. Age and decline are no goes.

Henrique would be a nice upgrade, same reasoning as Perrault except his is even better. Not a true number 1 but at least he improves the center ice without being too old and his contract won't hamper the team in the mid-to-long term.

Overall good homework compiling this list!

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07-12-2017, 03:03 PM
  #46
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While taking a nap I had a dream that the Habs acquired Sam Reinhart and signed Shane Doan (in addition to moving Plekanec and bringing back Markov). Now take it for what it's worth but the last time I had a dream about something happening, it was about me going on a date with this girl, whom I did end up going out with a week later.

Pacioretty - Danault - Gallagher
Lehkonen - Galchenyuk - Drouin
Byron - Reinhart - Hemsky
McCarron - Shaw - Doan

Markov - Weber
Alzner - Petry
Schlemko - Benn

Price - Lindgren

Looks pretty good to me

In your dream we acquired Rienhardt and somehow Danault is still our first line centre? And how did we aquire him?

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07-12-2017, 03:09 PM
  #47
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[QUOTE=Habaholicgolfer;134594143]
Quote:
The issue is expectations. We expect to fix all our problems in one trade deadline or one off season. It just doesn't work that way.
Well, there were 5 other off seasons and the same needs remain. So, fair to ask Bergevin to render account, esp. that what he does, doesn't match what he says ("building through the draft", "we're not trading our best prospect", "not trading Subban", etc.).

Quote:
I think we got slightly better this off season with better team depth and a very good draft. I believe we are trending in the right direction but it's a very modest improvement from year to year. Some fans just want more impact full changes and it's just not that easy to do in today's NHL.

- We will try Galchenyuk again as our #1C. It's our only legit option.

I like the idea but management put the kibosh on it.

- We may have to learn to deal without Markov sooner than we though? Time will tell.

That's a tough one. Can't see how he does this without a trade for a younger D. It's going to take too long now to go the developmental route.

- Defense is solid but lacks offensive type guys. We will survive IMO.

I'll beg to differ. LHD side is sub-par. Bergevin overpaid and gave too much term to a defensive defenseman. This is the type of player the org. should be developing so they can tap into that resource when the time comes. Time to own Alzner was before he hit UFA -- the Caps got the best return on him. Habs shouldn't be paying for these kinds of players and that includes the Shaws of this world. There is no reason they can't develop third liners and 2nd pairing Ds from those players they draft at the end of first rounds and in the 2nd rounds ... if they only chose to hold on to their 2nd round selections, like they did this year.

- Lets see how our 25 and under players grow this season.
Going to be a growth year. It's all about what their ultimate ceiling is. Age helps of course. And much prefer having them develop under Julien than MT.

- We lost Radulov. **** Radulov lol
Yeah, that didn't help. It's the net loss of a top asset. MB needs to make sure the cap space left behind by Radulov is actually going to be used on a top 6 player, not some guy who used to be a champ in a previous decade.
I think it's a mixed bag. Were it not for the Drouin acquisition, there would be more pitchforks out there.

As to your points, see above.

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07-12-2017, 03:14 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Belial View Post
If what we're hearing all the time is true and Bergevin is on the phone 24/7 kicking tires and inquiring on everything and everyone around the league than yeah, I think if someone would've been available and the price made sense he would've already pulled the trigger.
It's not just about working the phones, which every GM does, but it's about intel, working smart, it's about how good your pro scouting is and timing, IMHO. Ultimately, Bergevin has to take some responsibility.

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But you think he's an incompetent moron so this can't be the case according to you.
You are not qualified to decide what I think, no more than I am in respect of you.

If you insist on going with this tangent, then I challenge you to find a post of mine where I use the terms that you are ascribing to me.

Challenging someone who is the ultimate decision-maker, is a fan's prerogative. You may choose not to partake but unlike you, I respect your right to take that position even if I don't agree with it.

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Old
07-12-2017, 03:52 PM
  #49
shutehinside
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Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
I believe his scoring woes is a microcosm of the Habs inability to consistently score against good teams. If the Habs continue to think that this failing game plan will miraculously work one day... This is why I believe it to be the perfect moment to trade Pacioretty. With Drouin and Galchenyuk, we have a very good young base of proven players. Gallagher also has shown that he can be a top end talent. I worry about his injuries, but I won't write him off. Lehkonen just kept getting better last year, I was very impressed with his progress. But what do all these guys have in common? Wingers. We need a center. I feel that if a deal can be struck with Pacioretty going the other way, and we get a significant Center piece, the Habs need to listen.

The Habs will never get over the hump as long as they doubt Galchenyuk as a center or have Danault and Plekanec as your 1/2 punch. Something needs to give.

If MB pulls off a miracle and can acquire an impact center for futures alone, amazing. Not sure that is very likely.
Let's establish that ALL players have trouble scoring at the same clip against good teams vs bad teams.

Second, Patches has never ever played with a proper first line centre.

Third, it's incredibly easy for a good team to game plan against Patches because we don't have much threat to score outside of him. So this playoff slump doesn't apply because he stops trying and shrinks under pressure. He's been shadowed by the teams best D and best defensive forward ALL THE TIME because they know that when you take him out of the game, you take away our only scoring threat.

If you want Patches to be better against better teams and in the playoffs, get more depth at scoring. The fact he gets 30+ goals every year when very few players do is a testament to the fact we have a first class goal scoring sniper. Period.

Finally, the initial point was a trade proposal of Patches vs. Rask, hence the irksome response of trading one of the leagues top goal scorers for a young unproven centre when he's worth so much more to any other team in the league outside of Montreal.

Once we lose Patches or his productively we're going to be in a world of hurt if it's not replaced. That's the problem, not Patches.

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Old
07-12-2017, 03:56 PM
  #50
CrazyShea
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Originally Posted by Habaholicgolfer View Post
Duchene may be the longest serving "On the Block trade rumor" in the history of the NHL? lol
Runner up to Ryder, Halak and a 2nd

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