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Old
07-14-2017, 05:51 AM
  #76
kalessin
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
Wuh-uh?

We have 9 mil in cap space. Plekanec eats up 6 mil more. Switch the two and we'd have 7 mil in cap space. How much flexibility do you want FCOL?? There comes a point where too much cap space, for such a rich team, is just wasted opportunity.

It seems that cap space has become more valuable and important than having actual friggin talent on the team.

Hey let's not even try to land Tavares either. I mean, dear lord, he'll ask for 10+ mil per, cap space is more important.
Look beyond this next year...

Giroux has a long term albatross contract that would cripple us. He will be worse than Plekanec is now, and sooner. I can't believe people think he's still an elite player.

Would not take Giroux for free, and neither should you.

Tavares is a whole other story.

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07-14-2017, 06:30 AM
  #77
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Friedman was on 590 last night, said he believes Habs are still out there trying to make the big trade for offensive star. Probably explains why Markov hasn't re-signed. Habs may need the caproom.

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07-14-2017, 06:40 AM
  #78
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Are there any teams willing to trade an offensive star for Lukas Vejdemo and Casey Staum?

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07-14-2017, 06:41 AM
  #79
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Friedman was on 590 last night, said he believes Habs are still out there trying to make the big trade for offensive star. Probably explains why Markov hasn't re-signed. Habs may need the caproom.
I'd rather have Markov, tbh, or an offensive type D man using up that cap space. I'd be curious to know who they are trying to get.

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07-14-2017, 06:47 AM
  #80
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I'd rather have Markov, tbh, or an offensive type D man using up that cap space. I'd be curious to know who they are trying to get.
Well I know Markov just got married, but he hasn't signed anywhere else. Maybe they've agreed to a contract in principle as we wait for another move.

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07-14-2017, 06:48 AM
  #81
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Friedman was on 590 last night, said he believes Habs are still out there trying to make the big trade for offensive star. Probably explains why Markov hasn't re-signed. Habs may need the caproom.
I'm very curious to see what we do with our cap space.

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07-14-2017, 07:28 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by kalessin View Post
Look beyond this next year...

Giroux has a long term albatross contract that would cripple us. He will be worse than Plekanec is now, and sooner. I can't believe people think he's still an elite player.

Would not take Giroux for free, and neither should you.

Tavares is a whole other story.
WTF are you droning on about? He'll be 34 when his contract runs out, not exactly the definition of an albatross. Some hockey players fall off at a certain age (under 35) not because of their body, but rather they lose intensity because of a lack of motivation and passion, which a change in scenery can be beneficial at this point in his career. His only failling in the last few seasons is scoring less goals, but he's still one of the league's most formidable playmaking centers and his assist totals have been pretty regular in the past 3 seasons. Your assesment is based solely on your own prejudice.

Cap space is not meant to wait for the ideal situation to come along. If we would be constantly looking for the ideal cap situation, we won't be getting anywhere and its just becomes wasted non-allocation that can be put on adding talent assets -On The Ice- -where it counts-.

And please don't give me the -look further than next year- schtick when it comes to the cap. With Giroux in and Plex gone, we'd still be 7 mil under, with an expected growing cap.

And why do you need to assume like an immature ***? Where did I say I think he's elite? He fills quite a need on our team. Point final.

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07-14-2017, 08:08 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
WTF are you droning on about? He'll be 34 when his contract runs out, not exactly the definition of an albatross. Some hockey players fall off at a certain age (under 35) not because of their body, but rather they lose intensity because of a lack of motivation and passion, which a change in scenery can be beneficial at this point in his career. His only failling in the last few seasons is scoring less goals, but he's still one of the league's most formidable playmaking centers and his assist totals have been pretty regular in the past 3 seasons. Your assesment is based solely on your own prejudice.

Cap space is not meant to wait for the ideal situation to come along. If we would be constantly looking for the ideal cap situation, we won't be getting anywhere and its just becomes wasted non-allocation that can be put on adding talent assets -On The Ice- -where it counts-.

And please don't give me the -look further than next year- schtick when it comes to the cap. With Giroux in and Plex gone, we'd still be 7 mil under, with an expected growing cap.

And why do you need to assume like an immature ***? Where did I say I think he's elite? He fills quite a need on our team. Point final.
We haven't been a team to take advantage of opportunities that having empty cap space would provide because we've never had empty cap space available for more then a month or two at a time.

I suspect with a new round of top players being paid a bigger chunk of the cap there will be opportunity to get the players we actually want for very cheap or even get a prospect thrown in for free to take on a contract. Now is the time for cap flexibility.

Why is the cap going up in your mind? Are there new arenas with larger capacity coming on line, new more lucrative tv deals or maybe fans looking to spend even more money on tickets and merchandise in a rising interest rate environment? Me thinks status quo is the best we can hope for, in other words, the cap staying level just like I've argued that was going to be case for the last 5 years. There's nothing to drive the cap higher other then a couple of percentage points.

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07-14-2017, 08:14 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Frozenice View Post
We haven't been a team to take advantage of opportunities that having empty cap space would provide because we've never had empty cap space available for more then a month or two at a time.

I suspect with a new round of top players being paid a bigger chunk of the cap there will be opportunity to get the players we actually want for very cheap or even get a prospect thrown in for free to take on a contract. Now is the time for cap flexibility.

Why is the cap going up in your mind? Are there new arenas with larger capacity coming on line, new more lucrative tv deals or maybe fans looking to spend even more money on tickets and merchandise in a rising interest rate environment? Me thinks status quo is the best we can hope for, in other words, the cap staying level just like I've argued that was going to be case for the last 5 years. There's nothing to drive the cap higher other then a couple of percentage points.
The cap will keep going up. The league is looking to sell TV rights in China. The last ASG was watched by more people over there than all of NA combined. And the Vegas expansion will also bring in more money. The league has been in constant revenue growth for quite some time and they've always found ways to grow it further. We'll probably also witness one or two teams being rellocated to better venues with better financial outcomes.

https://www.thestar.com/sports/hocke...-in-china.html

http://www.thehockeynews.com/news/ar...biggest-market

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07-14-2017, 08:23 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
WTF are you droning on about? He'll be 34 when his contract runs out, not exactly the definition of an albatross. Some hockey players fall off at a certain age (under 35) not because of their body, but rather they lose intensity because of a lack of motivation and passion, which a change in scenery can be beneficial at this point in his career. His only failling in the last few seasons is scoring less goals, but he's still one of the league's most formidable playmaking centers and his assist totals have been pretty regular in the past 3 seasons. Your assesment is based solely on your own prejudice.

Cap space is not meant to wait for the ideal situation to come along. If we would be constantly looking for the ideal cap situation, we won't be getting anywhere and its just becomes wasted non-allocation that can be put on adding talent assets -On The Ice- -where it counts-.

And please don't give me the -look further than next year- schtick when it comes to the cap. With Giroux in and Plex gone, we'd still be 7 mil under, with an expected growing cap.

And why do you need to assume like an immature ***? Where did I say I think he's elite? He fills quite a need on our team. Point final.
I didn't say you think he's elite but someone else did. Either way if you think he's worth paying 8.25 mil per then you think he's worth elite money. Which is it?

Giroux is bad, man. He was good five years ago. Yeah he might bounce back but it's a huge gamble, more likely he'd be Gomez part 2. No thx.

Glad you're not GM!

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07-14-2017, 08:38 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
The cap will keep going up. The league is looking to sell TV rights in China. The last ASG was watched by more people over there than all of NA combined. And the Vegas expansion will also bring in more money. The league has been in constant revenue growth for quite some time and they've always found ways to grow it further. We'll probably also witness one or two teams being rellocated to better venues with better financial outcomes.

https://www.thestar.com/sports/hocke...-in-china.html

http://www.thehockeynews.com/news/ar...biggest-market
How is Vegas going to raise the cap? Each team actually gets a smaller chunk of league revenue, so at best it's a wash. Revenue goes up because you add a team but then it's diluted because each slice of the pie gets a little smaller.

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ďDo I see the NHL making millions of dollars in China in the next 10 years?Ē said Beijing-born Bo Hu, the director of China strategy and business development with the Wasserman Media Group. ďTo be honest, I donít. But thatís not to say thereís not a market for the NHL or a long-term vision for it. The NBA went there in 1984, but didnít set up an official office in China until 2008, so these things take time. But with the NHL now broadcasting games in China and creating a partnership with CCTV that will start after the 2022 Olympics, itís coming.Ē

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07-14-2017, 08:39 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by kalessin View Post
I didn't say you think he's elite but someone else did. Either way if you think he's worth paying 8.25 mil per then you think he's worth elite money. Which is it?

Giroux is bad, man. He was good five years ago. Yeah he might bounce back but it's a huge gamble, more likely he'd be Gomez part 2. No thx.

Glad you're not GM!
Depending on the assets needed to acquire Giroux, I don't think it's a bad idea. The problem with Tavares is that he holds all the cards. Even if the Habs trade for him, does he re-sign here? Obviously Tavares is the Habs best option, but is it even an option at all in the mind of Tavares?

As for Giroux, the Habs would need to get Philly to eat some salary. This all depends on what the Flyers plan on doing going forward. They may have the ability to do a 2-3 year rebuild, having already two centers to build around (Couturier, Patrick). I would have no problem trading the Habs 1st rounder in one of the next 2 drafts (some other posters may know better which draft is more deep and likely have a good piece later in the 1st round) and even adding a 2nd if Philly eats upwards of 2.275M. This will likely depend on their plan, since if they do a 2-3 year rebuild, his salary off the books in 5 years will coincide with some ELC deals ending and potential pay days for some young players.

Also having Giroux at 6M, with Plekanecs gone, still have plenty of room for Tavares. Clearly wishful thinking, but options are there. Cap Space won't help this team win, effective cap management will.

The Habs need to make moves now and not wait for other pieces to fall first.

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07-14-2017, 08:42 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by kalessin View Post
I didn't say you think he's elite but someone else did. Either way if you think he's worth paying 8.25 mil per then you think he's worth elite money. Which is it?

Giroux is bad, man. He was good five years ago. Yeah he might bounce back but it's a huge gamble, more likely he'd be Gomez part 2. No thx.

Glad you're not GM!
Don't know what's your definition of bad, but Giroux finished top 10 for assists among centermen in the last 3 seasons.

2017: 10th
2016: 9th
2015: 5th

He's a top 10 playmaking center in this league.

Like I said, your assesment is based on your own prejudice.

That 8 million right now is close to 10% of the cap and would be a slight overpayment to fill a dire need.

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07-14-2017, 08:46 AM
  #89
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Don't know what's your definition of bad, but Giroux finished top 10 for assists among centermen in the last 3 seasons.

2017: 10th
2016: 9th
2015: 5th

He's a top 10 playmaking center in this league.

Like I said, your assesment is based on your own prejudice.

That 8 million right now is close to 10% of the cap and would be a slight overpayment to fill a dire need.
Habs top6 has 3 goal scorers (Pacioretty, Galchenyuk and Gallagher) and 1 playmaker (Drouin). Playmakers are very much needed.

I don't consider Lehkonen of Danault top6 players, yet. Just because they play there for the Habs, does not make them top6 players. Byron played great last year, is it sustainable? Shaw

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07-14-2017, 08:48 AM
  #90
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How is Vegas going to raise the cap? Each team actually gets a smaller chunk of league revenue, so at best it's a wash. Revenue goes up because you add a team but then it's diluted because each slice of the pie gets a little smaller.
Why are you talking about revenue sharing when the cap is based on league wide revenues? The new franchise just put 500 million in the league's coffers. That's a single year increase of around 12.5% in revenue. Span it on 5 years and you already have half of the regular 5% increase for every year in the next 5 years. So yeah, the cap will go up. It will keep going up.

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07-14-2017, 09:01 AM
  #91
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Why are you talking about revenue sharing when the cap is based on league wide revenues? The new franchise just put 500 million in the league's coffers. That's a single year increase of around 12.5% in revenue. Span it on 5 years and you already have half of the regular 5% increase for every year in the next 5 years. So yeah, the cap will go up. It will keep going up.
$500M was huge for the NHL. Add that the Leafs and Oilers are an up and coming team and that increases revenue even more. You can't fight inflation... Cap is going up $2M per year at least for the next few years.

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07-14-2017, 09:04 AM
  #92
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I'd rather have Markov, tbh, or an offensive type D man using up that cap space. I'd be curious to know who they are trying to get.
Wow you are conservative.

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07-14-2017, 09:04 AM
  #93
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Why are you talking about revenue sharing when the cap is based on league wide revenues? The new franchise just put 500 million in the league's coffers. That's a single year increase of around 12.5% in revenue. Span it on 5 years and you already have half of the regular 5% increase for every year in the next 5 years. So yeah, the cap will go up. It will keep going up.
Do expansion fees contribute to the cap?

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07-14-2017, 09:06 AM
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I'm very curious to see what we do with our cap space.
Insiders aren't even mentioning Habs connected to Duchene anymore. Which surprises me, is Bergevin targeting somebody else? Who?

Duchene > Nugent-Hopkins

But having said that the latter may come at cheaper acquisition price. Unless Tavares is actually going to be made available, could it be that him signing an extension is what is holding up the other (sorry for using an EK word here) dominoes to fall?

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07-14-2017, 09:06 AM
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Do expansion fees contribute to the cap?
No they do not.

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07-14-2017, 09:12 AM
  #96
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Why are you talking about revenue sharing when the cap is based on league wide revenues? The new franchise just put 500 million in the league's coffers. That's a single year increase of around 12.5% in revenue. Span it on 5 years and you already have half of the regular 5% increase for every year in the next 5 years. So yeah, the cap will go up. It will keep going up.
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Do expansion fees contribute to the cap?
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No they do not.
Escrow also seems to be going up, lol.

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The addition of a new franchise, the Las Vegas Knights, generated a $500 million fee for the NHL, a fee that is not only almost 25% of the NHLís total revenues in 2015-16 but a fee that set an NHL record and is the second-highest fee ever paid in any sport. (That record is held by the Houston Texans, who paid $700 million to join the NFL in 1999). But, sadly, when it comes to sharing revenue with players, the CBA explicitly excludes revenues earned from a new franchise.

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07-14-2017, 09:25 AM
  #97
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Escrow also seems to be going up, lol.
I'm not sure how the owners won that addition in the CBA. I'd imagine they will try hard to get a fee for a 32nd team before this agreement ends.

Imagine the $500m did count. The cap would have soared.

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07-14-2017, 09:48 AM
  #98
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I'm not sure how the owners won that addition in the CBA. I'd imagine they will try hard to get a fee for a 32nd team before this agreement ends.

Imagine the $500m did count. The cap would have soared.
How would you deal with a one time addition like that if it did count as HRR? Would be weird if the cap went up for one year then back down.

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07-14-2017, 09:52 AM
  #99
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Giroux at 7,000,000

for

Plekanec, 1st round pick and 2nd round pick


Pacioretty - Giroux - Gallagher
Galchenyuk - Drouin - Lehkonen
Hudon - Danault - Hemsky
Byron - McCarron - Shaw

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07-14-2017, 09:59 AM
  #100
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Escrow also seems to be going up, lol.
Been reading about escrow and how the players using the cap escalator is driving that up. The NHL did a really good job of protecting their bottom dollar while putting the burden on the players.

Considering the cap ceiling is already 15% higher than the actual 50-50 split, this almost always ensures that the owners will be the ones benefiting from escrow. On top of that 15%, you have the players who can elect to us their cap escalator (5% max), we are talking about a lot of money coming off the players salaries.

Just an quick example for anyone that wants to get a bit more info on how this works.

Let's say the NHL decides before the 17-18 off season that started in June 17, that the league was to make $6B (round numbers make it easier to follow), it would mean that the NHL owners would take $3B and the players will split $3B.

Now you take the $3B and divide by 30 (again for simplicity, let's ignore that the league has 31 teams), which means the midpoint of the cap is $100M

Now that the midpoint is $100M, teams will have a cap floor of $85M and a cap ceiling of $115M.

So if we look at it like every team spends to the cap, the players are pocketing $3.45B? No they are not.

Because of escrow, the players will actually need to put 450/3000=15% of their salary into escrow.

So for instance Price is to make $10.5M but because of escrow, he gives the NHL back $1.575M which leaves him with $8.925M

So for the players who want to use the cap escalator, it may not be beneficial to the majority, but to the minority. This may be the cause for the next lockout.

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