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Old
07-12-2017, 01:36 PM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mortimer Snerd View Post
What exactly has he accomplished?

If his impact is negative get rid of him.
If his impact is merely neutral then why have him?
6 years with no positive impact is reason enough for a change.

When what you are doing isn't benefiting you - change what you are doing.
I'm with ya here, Mort.

If a goaltending coach's job is to improve a goaltender's performance, the numbers don't pan out in Flaherty's favor.

If a goaltending coach's job is not to improve a goaltender's performance, then what the hell are we paying them money for?

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07-12-2017, 01:41 PM
  #27
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All we know is he doesn't have a positive impact on our goaltending. So boot him out the door. You're right though if we had Price he'd look great. When things aren't going well for quite some time it's time for a change until it they do.
How do we know that exactly? Maybe things would have been worse without him?

I think the Jets have had a problem with the actual goaltenders playing between the pipes more so than being let down by a poor coach.

Again I think people are overestimating how much a goalie whisperer is capable of

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07-12-2017, 01:48 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Aavco Cup View Post
How do we know that exactly? Maybe things would have been worse without him?

I think the Jets have had a problem with the actual goaltenders playing between the pipes more so than being let down by a poor coach.

Again I think people are overestimating how much a goalie whisperer is capable of
I also think you substantially underrate the impact of a good goalie coach. They do far more than you think. Here's an excellent article on how Korn helped Holtby become one of the league's best goalies:


http://www.thehockeynews.com/news/ar...-with-capitals

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Old
07-12-2017, 01:56 PM
  #29
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I also think you substantially underrate the impact of a good goalie coach. They do far more than you think. Here's an excellent article on how Korn helped Holtby become one of the league's best goalies:


http://www.thehockeynews.com/news/ar...-with-capitals
How much would he have helped Pavelec?

The talent needs to be there in order for the coach to coax it out

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07-12-2017, 02:01 PM
  #30
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How often did the Jets practice last season? I've heard it referred to as a historic low.

Other than putting a stretching & conditioning program in place, what else does a goaltending coach do if a team gets in a practice once every two weeks?

As discussed, big changes happen in the off season.

Hellebuyck is supposed to be spending this summer with Adam Francilia with a major overhaul to his technique being taught. This involves "recruiting his left oblique muscle to stabilize and offset the counter-rotation."

He's turned a few careers around so far,

https://www.nhl.com/news/unmasked-de...ng/c-278977846

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07-12-2017, 02:04 PM
  #31
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^and it's not like Hutch declined steadily throughout the season. He sucked from the get go. Offseason work likely had a bigger impact than Flaherty

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07-12-2017, 02:05 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Aavco Cup View Post
How much would he have helped Pavelec?

The talent needs to be there in order for the coach to coax it out
I'll give you Pavs, but both Helle and Hutch have talent as seen from earlier bodies of work and yet he hasn't managed to improve either of them. Heck both of seen theor performance weaken as time has gone by. No doubt some of that is on the league figuring them out, but thatvobe where good coaching comes into play. Either Wade isn't very good at assessing the games of his goalies, his techniques for improvement aren't effective or we have a couple of prinadonna's who won't listen to him. At the end of the day all roads lead to the same destination and that is to bring someone new in.

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07-12-2017, 02:09 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Aavco Cup View Post
How do we know that exactly? Maybe things would have been worse without him?

I think the Jets have had a problem with the actual goaltenders playing between the pipes more so than being let down by a poor coach.

Again I think people are overestimating how much a goalie whisperer is capable of
If they arent capable of much why have one at all? I know that is quite on the contrary though. Goalie coaches play a massive role in developing goaltending prospects. All of our prospects have faltered in their development trajectories with Flaherty. He either is a terrible teacher or he has no understanding of the technique required to be a good goalie. It can't really get much worse. So it can't hurt to fire him and bring in someone new. Like it's been said before when you arent getting the results from your goalies you find a goalie coach that can. I don't know if you just feel bad for the guy because he won't have a job with the Jets or what but either way he needs to go.

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Old
07-12-2017, 02:28 PM
  #34
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Missed this article. Stats don't lie?

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/p...orse-actually/

Does Paul Maurice make his goalies worse than they actually are? No. His goaltenders just suck.

"Maurice’s lack of goaltending throughout his career is a crazy statistical anomaly."

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Old
07-12-2017, 02:58 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishy Jets Fan View Post
Missed this article. Stats don't lie?

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/p...orse-actually/

Does Paul Maurice make his goalies worse than they actually are? No. His goaltenders just suck.

"Maurice’s lack of goaltending throughout his career is a crazy statistical anomaly."
Interesting article. Also makes the case that some of us were saying back then about Montoya and Pavelec. Monty should have been the starter.

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Old
07-12-2017, 03:09 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Aavco Cup View Post
Pay sucks. Nobody was making him better IMO.

BTW most goalie technique adjustments happen on the offseason. Flaherty is prohibited by the CBA to have organized on ice sessions with players.

So you think he should make Pav better (change technique) mid season?

I think you overestimate what a goalie whisperer is capable of
That's garbage. So I guess every bad goalie can't get better? Come on man. You do whatever it takes to make them better, if that means changing is technique, thanks that's what should have been done.

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Old
07-12-2017, 03:57 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Puckatron 3000 View Post
I'm with ya here, Mort.

If a goaltending coach's job is to improve a goaltender's performance, the numbers don't pan out in Flaherty's favor.

If a goaltending coach's job is not to improve a goaltender's performance, then what the hell are we paying them money for?
Due to the expansion draft / entry draft / UFA sprint I found myself spending a lot of time on HF. (too much time)

At one point my poor fiance said "ok you'll have to wait until later to talk to "Stickatron" and your HF friends."

The error on your name is what made this crack so funny. She likes mascots and noticed your avatar... which is the only thing she knows about HF.

Anyways...
_______________

As for the goalie coach I get the we don't know if he's really bad for sure view point. But professional sports doesn't usually allow for poor results season after season. True North would have to have a really specific and certain reason to ignore the results. I have no reason to not be in the see if you can find a better fit for the Jets camp.

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Old
07-12-2017, 04:21 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mortimer Snerd View Post
You asked.

I repeat:
What exactly has he accomplished?

If his impact is negative get rid of him.
If his impact is merely neutral then why have him?
6 years with no positive impact is reason enough for a change.

When what you are doing isn't benefiting you - change what you are doing.
Nailed it.

It's not as though Flaherty is doing some top secret experiments with Jets goalies in the Mojave desert. I know full well what a goalie coach does, and I imagine the number of goalies here do as well. Maybe he's good at teaching concepts, maybe he has built a strong rapport with our goalies, but the simple fact is that the results aren't there. More concerning is that all our goalies seem to be riddled with technical flaws in their game, whether it's related to head tracking (Hutch), hand placement (Helle), or just basic positional concepts (Pavelec).

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Old
07-12-2017, 04:46 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Aavco Cup View Post
You are not qualified to assess and neither am I. Who would you replace him with?

IMO if the Jets had Carey Price, Flaherty would be considered a genius. Talent in talent out.

I'm not arguing he's a great coach. All I'm saying here is 99.9% of posters here including you have no idea one way or the other
Yeah we do.

If one guy regressed or stagnated it would be acceptable. truth is since Flaherty has been here every single tender has either stagnated or regressed. so maybe we aren't experts on the intricacies of NHL assistant coaches...but by my reckoning we have seen Flahrety have either zero or a negative effect on 6+ goalies. that isn't an isignifigant statement. even if they were all no talent hacks,(they weren't) they should have progressed, even a little bit. they didn't. so yeah, he hasn't done his job.

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Old
07-12-2017, 04:54 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Mortimer Snerd View Post
You asked.

I repeat:
What exactly has he accomplished?

If his impact is negative get rid of him.
If his impact is merely neutral then why have him?
6 years with no positive impact is reason enough for a change.

When what you are doing isn't benefiting you - change what you are doing.
Have to agree with this. It's pretty clear by now that the Jets face some competitive disadvantages (signing UFAs, NTC lists, etc) and need to exploit advantages even more zealously and even ruthlessly than other orgs might. Finding and retaining an ace goaltending coach -- or at the very least not retaining a mediocre/unproven one -- is something I'd expect the Jets to do.

Wade's had enough time to improve a goaltending roster that has included Pavs, but also Helle, Montoya and others with pedigree and/or better results elsewhere. I don't see they have't replaced him by now.

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Old
07-12-2017, 05:18 PM
  #41
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Here's a chance to learn directly from him!

goalie camp.jpg

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Old
07-12-2017, 05:25 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Arthur Fonzarelli View Post
Here's a chance to learn directly from him!

Attachment 96313
Alright we need one of our resident goalies to infiltrate this and find out out his super secret techniques :p

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Old
07-12-2017, 05:36 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Aavco Cup View Post
Pay sucks. Nobody was making him better IMO.

BTW most goalie technique adjustments happen on the offseason. Flaherty is prohibited by the CBA to have organized on ice sessions with players.

So you think he should make Pav better (change technique) mid season?

I think you overestimate what a goalie whisperer is capable of
Yet Dubynk and our own Steve Mason say otherwise .... interesting

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Old
07-12-2017, 05:45 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Jetfaninflorida View Post
Interesting article. Also makes the case that some of us were saying back then about Montoya and Pavelec. Monty should have been the starter.
Many of us called out Flaherty's ineffectiveness for a couple of seasons already and many here were quick to dismiss us Flaherty critics as unqualified.
You don't have to be qualified to see our goalies regress and underperform year after year.

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07-12-2017, 05:49 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Daximus View Post
If they arent capable of much why have one at all? I know that is quite on the contrary though. Goalie coaches play a massive role in developing goaltending prospects. All of our prospects have faltered in their development trajectories with Flaherty. He either is a terrible teacher or he has no understanding of the technique required to be a good goalie. It can't really get much worse. So it can't hurt to fire him and bring in someone new. Like it's been said before when you arent getting the results from your goalies you find a goalie coach that can. I don't know if you just feel bad for the guy because he won't have a job with the Jets or what but either way he needs to go.
Change for the sake of change might have some merit. And it wouldn't bother me one bit if it happened.

What bothers me is all the "experts" around here that seem to think our goaltending issues will be suddenly solved by firing Flaherty.

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07-12-2017, 05:54 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Fishy Jets Fan View Post
Missed this article. Stats don't lie?

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/p...orse-actually/

Does Paul Maurice make his goalies worse than they actually are? No. His goaltenders just suck.

"Maurice’s lack of goaltending throughout his career is a crazy statistical anomaly."

Hold on there, partner. That goes against the narrative that Maurice sucks because of his career win% guiding such stellar franchises like the Hartford Whalers, Toronto Maple Leafs and the Winnipeg Jets.

Are you saying that his goalies habe largely been below average and there is a statistical analysis that suggests that Maurice didn't make them suck?

That's just crazy talk!

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Old
07-12-2017, 05:59 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Aavco Cup View Post
Change for the sake of change might have some merit. And it wouldn't bother me one bit if it happened.

What bothers me is all the "experts" around here that seem to think our goaltending issues will be suddenly solved by firing Flaherty.
I don't believe anyone is saying that a new goalie coach will suddenly turn things around on its own as at the end of the day it's still up to the goalies to go out and perform. With that being said it's the job of the goalie coach to help them perform and this point I don't see much evidence that Wade is making a positive difference in that regard whereas someone else imo is more likely to have success.

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Old
07-12-2017, 06:03 PM
  #48
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I don't believe anyone is saying that a new goalie coach will suddenly turn things around on its own as at the end of the day it's still up to the goalies to go out and perform. With that being said it's the job of the goalie coach to help them perform and this point I don't see much evidence that Wade is making a positive difference in that regard whereas someone else imo is more likely to have success.
But there's no evidence he's not either. It's all subjective.

It could be said he's had a positive influence on every goalie whose ever played here. They've all played well in spurts. Maybe that was Flaherty getting them to overachieve.

Like I said I just don't understand the passionate negativity there seems to be around here with all assistant coaches and even with all the AHL coaches this team has had. Most of it with very little to base it on IMO

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Old
07-12-2017, 06:10 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Aavco Cup View Post
Change for the sake of change might have some merit. And it wouldn't bother me one bit if it happened.

What bothers me is all the "experts" around here that seem to think our goaltending issues will be suddenly solved by firing Flaherty.
Can't get much worse.
It's a cheap easy fix

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Old
07-12-2017, 06:15 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by Skidooboy View Post
Yeah we do.

If one guy regressed or stagnated it would be acceptable. truth is since Flaherty has been here every single tender has either stagnated or regressed. so maybe we aren't experts on the intricacies of NHL assistant coaches...but by my reckoning we have seen Flahrety have either zero or a negative effect on 6+ goalies. that isn't an isignifigant statement. even if they were all no talent hacks,(they weren't) they should have progressed, even a little bit. they didn't. so yeah, he hasn't done his job.
This seems the best point made in the entire Flaherty discussion, one that's capable single-handedly of voiding all opposing views. I can't imagine what the team's rationalization would be for keeping him, but it certainly can't be results.

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