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The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, NHL revenues, relocation and expansion.

Offer Made to Purchase Hurricanes for $500MM and stay in Carolina. (Upd: Post 73)

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Old
07-13-2017, 06:45 PM
  #101
syc
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Originally Posted by Finlandia WOAT View Post
You'd have been laughed out of a room full of Hurricanes fans if you'd told them the team would be sold for 500 million to stay in Raleigh. No one here expected that to happen. Literally yesterday a local sports radio host said that all the local investors were waiting for the price of 400 million to come down.

I'm ecstatic, but it's more than fair to question how we got 500 million dollars.
Great news for canes fans but slow down. We will have to see what his out clause will be. My guess that is where the 500m comes from, no way he will agree to lock this team down in Carolina and pay that price.

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07-13-2017, 06:47 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by syc View Post
Great news for canes fans but slow down. We will have to see what his out clause will be. My guess that is where the 500m comes from, no way he will agree to lock this team down in Carolina and pay that price.
As they say in Frozen... Let It Go

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07-13-2017, 06:47 PM
  #103
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wasn't Columbus just like Carolina 5 years ago? Surely a strong owner who wants to win and will spend 70m on salaries can make a difference.

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07-13-2017, 07:22 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by mikelvl View Post
Good for the Whalers. But it is starting to appear that Quebec City is getting screwed. Between this news and Jeremy Jacobs spearheading opposition to a team in QC, my optimism and hope for a return is waning.
I'm surprised it took 32 posts for someone to chime in with the obligatory disrespect that pops up whenever the 'Canes are mentioned.


Last edited by EQV: 07-13-2017 at 07:25 PM. Reason: I accidentally a letter
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Old
07-13-2017, 07:23 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by TheOllieC View Post
i really hope this is not serious

that would be mind-numbingly stupid to break a lease and pay the costs of moving a team just to move them an hour or two away
The post you quoted read like it was from someone who has never been to the Carolinas, opened up Google Maps, and started listing cities at random.

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07-13-2017, 07:24 PM
  #106
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Seems like a grade-A guy
The relocation statement is highly misleading. Going into the purchase of the team, the Rangers did not own a high-A franchise so they rely on signing player development contacts (PDCs) with an independently owned team. In this case that team was the Bakersfield Blaze in the California League. The Blaze were widely considered one of the worst teams an MLB team could be stuck with. Their World War II-era park was one of the only parks in all of baseball that saw sun delays due to it's westward orientation and as a result they had pitiful attendance, often the worst among all full season affiliated teams. Greenberg owned the Pelicans prior to his purchase of the Rangers and their facilities are far and away superior to Bakersfield's and played in the more desirable Carolina League. Additionally, the Rangers Low-A club was located in Hickory, NC. So, when the Rangers PDC with Bakersfield expired (which coincided with Myrtle Beach's PDC with Atlanta expiring), Greenberg moved it over to Myrtle Beach, which is perfectly normal when members of an MLB ownership group also own an MiLB team. Note that only the affiliation moved. The Blaze themselves did not, although they've since been contacted due to lack of new facilities and an inability to sell the team without a new park.

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07-13-2017, 07:26 PM
  #107
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Salty Canadian media outlets just can't help themselves. "Struggling". Desperately trying to spin this as some kind of bad thing for the Hurricanes. God I hate the hockey establishment.

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Originally Posted by garnetpalmetto View Post
The relocation statement is highly misleading. Going into the purchase of the team, the Rangers did not own a high-A franchise so they rely on signing player development contacts (PDCs) with an independently owned team. In this case that team was the Bakersfield Blaze in the California League. The Blaze were widely considered one of the worst teams an MLB team could be stuck with. Their World War II-era park was one of the only parks in all of baseball that saw sun delays due to it's westward orientation and as a result they had pitiful attendance, often the worst among all full season affiliated teams. Greenberg owned the Pelicans prior to his purchase of the Rangers and their facilities are far and away superior to Bakersfield's and played in the more desirable Carolina League. Additionally, the Rangers Low-A club was located in Hickory, NC. So, when the Rangers PDC with Bakersfield expired (which coincided with Myrtle Beach's PDC with Atlanta expiring), Greenberg moved it over to Myrtle Beach, which is perfectly normal when members of an MLB ownership group also own an MiLB team. Note that only the affiliation moved. The Blaze themselves did not, although they've since been contacted due to lack of new facilities and an inability to sell the team without a new park.
Even with all the caveats and what-have-yous here, minor league teams, especially lower than double A, move allllllllllllll the time. If a minor league baseball team is in the same town for 10 years that's a raging success. And it's a whole lot different than moving a multi-hundred million dollar major league franchise.

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Originally Posted by EQV View Post
The post you quoted read like it was from someone who has never been to the Carolinas, opened up Google Maps, and started listing cities at random.
Holly Springs

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Old
07-13-2017, 07:29 PM
  #108
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I'm happy for Canes fans. Yet, there are two things I don't understand.

The price seems too high, unless it includes some kind of incurring of debt from the team, so it's Enterprise value.

And, why do all the announcements include the part about keeping the team in Raleigh? Wouldn't that be assumed?

Like I say, it's just a curiosity to me.

ETA...Given the lease, this seemed like an unlikely relocation situation anyway. That's what makes the comments about staying in Raleigh curious.

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07-13-2017, 07:30 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Roboturner913 View Post
I think you can add in some performance-based expectation as well (in terms of the sale price I mean). Team is trending up, looks to be in position to be really competitive for the next 8-10 years and a solid management team in place (finally). One could reasonably look at their history of fan support with winning teams in place and see a lot of profit opportunity there if you're forward-thinking. Karmanos, for all his appreciation of hockey, never seemed to care to capitalize on the team's success post-Stanley Cup in terms of PR and growing the fanbase. They've always just kinda been like "we're here if you like hockey" without ever really doing a ton of outreach.

A smart investor would see a market with a ton of upwardly-mobile people with a ton of dispensable income and no other pro sports teams in the vicinity. You wouldn't think that would be terribly hard to exploit. I just don't think Karmanos ever cared to.
We have a winner.

If a few seasons of bad attendance because fans don't want to pay to see a losing product means a team should automatically be a relocation candidate, we'd see it much more frequently across all sports, including NHL teams in traditional markets.

The fans are there, but don't want to shell out coin to see the team struggle and Karmanos has done nothing to get them into the building in other ways.

I'm very excited to see how Greenberg will engage the local market.

The relocation rumors have always been just that. I never saw a shred of evidence to back it up other than "Sunbelt team with poor attendance recently and Karmanos wants to sell."

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07-13-2017, 07:35 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by MNNumbers View Post
I'm happy for Canes fans. Yet, there are two things I don't understand.

The price seems too high, unless it includes some kind of incurring of debt from the team, so it's Enterprise value.
As has already been noted, the NHL is unlikely to let a sale price be announced that is signficantly less than what the Vegas team cost. There are any number of ways you could manipulate the numbers to make it show whatever you want.

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Originally Posted by MNNumbers View Post
And, why do all the announcements include the part about keeping the team in Raleigh? Wouldn't that be assumed?
In theory, to head off all the Canadian vultures who would point and say "He's only buying the team so he can move it." Although people will dream up conspiracy theories and pretzel logic all day to justify whatever they want to think.

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Old
07-13-2017, 07:50 PM
  #111
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I'm surprised it took 32 posts for someone to chime in with the obligatory disrespect that pops up whenever the 'Canes are mentioned.
There are folks on Twitter who are extremely bitter that the team is not moving back to Hartford and not just former Whaler fans either. Because moving back to Hartford, which is losing population, has no arena, is smack-dab in-between Boston and NYC and the already 4 combined teams between the two metros, and is on the brink of bankruptcy is smart.

But oh yeah, "nostalgia"

Surprisingly haven't seen too many bitter Nordiques fans, at least not yet.

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07-13-2017, 07:54 PM
  #112
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So my quick read of the situation: Greenberg likes owning sports teams, did a good job with the Rangers, and had been interested in the Stars in the past. He owns a couple of minor league baseball teams. It looks like he wanted to own a major league franchise again and he saw an opportunity. While he doesn't have any ties to Carolina, he doesn't have any ties to any city that's a rumored relocation target (he is not Canadian nor does he have any ties to the Pacific Northwest). So if you're a Carolina fan you should be happy you have a new owner who likely knows what he was doing and has experience with doing the turnaround of a sports team. If you are a relocationist, its a sad day.

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07-13-2017, 07:58 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by HisIceness View Post
There are folks on Twitter who are extremely bitter that the team is not moving back to Hartford and not just former Whaler fans either. Because moving back to Hartford, which is losing population, has no arena, is smack-dab in-between Boston and NYC and the already 4 combined teams between the two metros, and is on the brink of bankruptcy is smart.

But oh yeah, "nostalgia"

Surprisingly haven't seen too many bitter Nordiques fans, at least not yet.
The Whalers had thousands of empty seats during playoff games multiple times.

It's time to stop romanticizing that place as a hockey mecca with infinitely better support than Carolina.

People choose to ignore the realities of the team's situation in Hartford because there are narratives to push.

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07-13-2017, 08:07 PM
  #114
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Big news.

Finally, the rumors will stop about them moving.
Politely disagree

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07-13-2017, 08:08 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by MNNumbers View Post
And, why do all the announcements include the part about keeping the team in Raleigh? Wouldn't that be assumed?

Like I say, it's just a curiosity to me.

ETA...Given the lease, this seemed like an unlikely relocation situation anyway. That's what makes the comments about staying in Raleigh curious.
The annual relocation rumors that circulated through local and national media every time the Canadiens played in Raleigh the past 4 years is a BIG reason why this was stated. It's been stated numerous times that relocation isn't happening, and yet certain outlets had an agenda to push. Including this with today's (and the eventual purchase agreement) is the final STHU to those outlets.

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07-13-2017, 08:08 PM
  #116
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This team is on the way up the standings. Only a matter of time before they become playoff regulars. Lots of young talent and the team is being built the right way. Great building too......

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07-13-2017, 08:18 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by HisIceness View Post
There are folks on Twitter who are extremely bitter that the team is not moving back to Hartford and not just former Whaler fans either. Because moving back to Hartford, which is losing population, has no arena, is smack-dab in-between Boston and NYC and the already 4 combined teams between the two metros, and is on the brink of bankruptcy is smart.

But oh yeah, "nostalgia"

Surprisingly haven't seen too many bitter Nordiques fans, at least not yet.
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Originally Posted by EQV View Post
The Whalers had thousands of empty seats during playoff games multiple times.

It's time to stop romanticizing that place as a hockey mecca with infinitely better support than Carolina.

People choose to ignore the realities of the team's situation in Hartford because there are narratives to push.
Shocked at the lack of sympathy for hartford's hockey fans. But you would be among the first to tell people to respect Carolina.


And CT is the richest state in the union.

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07-13-2017, 08:22 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
Shocked at the lack of sympathy for hartford's hockey fans. But you would be among the first to tell people to respect Carolina.


And CT is the richest state in the union.
Lack of sympathy? When did I say I didn't feel bad for actual Whalers fans who lost their team? Don't read things that aren't there.

You also put words in the mouth of the other person you quoted as well, who said that much of this wasn't even from former Whaler fans - which has also been my experience. A lot of these people spouting hot takes weren't even alive in 1997.

I do feel bad for any fan that loses a team to relocation. My issue is with how Hartford is constantly romanticized as Hockeyville USA with fans hanging off the rafters every night.

Also, CT being "the richest state in the Union" doesn't say much about the situation in and around Hartford, nor is GDP per capita the go-to way of determining how healthy a place's economy is.

Try again.

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07-13-2017, 08:24 PM
  #119
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is paying $500M a good investment?

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07-13-2017, 08:24 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by EQV View Post
Lack of sympathy? When did I say I didn't feel bad for actual Whalers fans who lost their team? Don't read things that aren't there.

You also put words in the mouth of the other person you quoted as well, who said that much of this wasn't even from former Whaler fans - which has also been my experience. A lot of these people spouting hot takes weren't even alive in 1997.

I do feel bad for any fan that loses a team to relocation. My issue is with how Hartford is constantly romanticized as Hockeyville USA with fans hanging off the rafters every night.

Also, CT being "the richest state in the Union" doesn't say much about the situation in and around Hartford, nor is GDP per capita the go-to way of determining how healthy a place's economy is.

Try again.
Then you should make that clear, because the Canes are not moving and you mentioned a fanbase that hasn't had a hockey team in 20 years. People just think Karmanos screwed hartford (he did) and are upset about his lack of remose, which is why you see those comments on twitter.

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07-13-2017, 08:27 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
Then you should make that clear, because the Canes are not moving and you mentioned a fanbase that hasn't had a hockey team in 20 years. People just think Karmanos screwed hartford (he did) and are upset about his lack of remose, which is why you see those comments on twitter.
Agree with you on Karmanos but he is not responsible for the phenomenon of Twitter being populated by idiots. Many of these people, as I said, weren't even alive (or were small children) when the Whalers moved, and many more were never even Whaler fans and just have an axe to grind against any place south of the Mason-Dixon with a hockey team.

I do not have to make anything clear that wasn't directly related to my original post. This wouldn't even be an issue if you hadn't tried to put words in my mouth.

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07-13-2017, 08:38 PM
  #122
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Shocked at the lack of sympathy for hartford's hockey fans. But you would be among the first to tell people to respect Carolina.


And CT is the richest state in the union.
You do realize that the city of Hartford is close to being bankrupt....

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07-13-2017, 08:45 PM
  #123
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Well goodbye panthers. Unless the league does a weird alignment and Arizona goes to Quebec or something

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07-13-2017, 08:46 PM
  #124
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You do realize that the city of Hartford is close to being bankrupt....
Narratives!

I have no problem with Hartford getting a team again.

And I really do feel bad for their die-hard fans who watched their team leave. I truly do.

But relocating ANY existing team there right now would be a laughably bad idea financially.

And as I pointed out before, the majority of people chirping about this don't even seem to be actual ex-Whaler fans.

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07-13-2017, 08:50 PM
  #125
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Greg Wyshynski retweeted it. So I guess.
Dudes a tool.

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