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Marc Bergevin - "My kingdom for a center!" Edition

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Old
07-13-2017, 03:20 PM
  #1
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Marc Bergevin - "My kingdom for a center!" Edition

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07-13-2017, 03:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Belial View Post
Where did I said Weber and Alzner are great in transition?

Is Emelin a #2? Weber makes his partners a lot better than they really are.

Schlemko was playing ~19 minutes in Jersey and I don't think a couple of more shifts per game are going to kill him.

He was playing less in San Jose because they had Martin and Vlasic ahead of him.

To be honest, even if Markov is back I would still try Schlemko/Jerabek/Morrow with Weber and see how it goes.
You just don't follow discussions. It's so boring I need to repeat myself.

I was talking about Alzner-Weber being a bad transition pair. You chimed in about their age, and other completely useless facts.

Yes Weber makes his partner better... But why must the Habs resort to filling holes with lesser players because he is paired with an elite player? You think I was happy with Emelin - Weber pair? You think I was happy with Markov-Weber pair? This is exactly where my frustration stems from; players needing to play well over their head for this team to be competitive and fall on their face come playoffs.

Schlemko played 19 mins a game in Jersey. He played 1249 minutes that year. Weber played 25 min/game, that's 2000 minutes last year, that's not a couple of minutes more.

Try whatever you want. When you start the season with that many question marks for such an important player, you really need to question your GM. It's fine if Morrow was a draft pick by the Habs, played 30 or so games, showed that he might have "it". But this isn't the case. You named 3 players, none of which were Habs last year that you "want to try" in the #2 spot. That's just bad management.

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07-13-2017, 03:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habaholicgolfer View Post
I wonder how much $4.38M over 5 years is worth if you invest it? I think your bringing up offsets towards your favor but it likely doesn't measure up. However, Like I said, I'm not an accountant. I do keep hearing about the impact of taxes in different cities though and it's just not on these boards. Is it a real thing or not? Certainly not the first time it's been talked about and it's certainly not resolved between a you and me debate today.
That $4.38M is difference after income tax. RCA contributions are taxed completely differently than income is. RCAs aren't an offset, its closer to (but isn't) a pension contribution that you have more control over.

Is the tax difference a real thing? Sure. Is it outrageously oversimplified when discussed in a sports context? Sure is. Is it the reason Radulov chose Dallas over Montreal? probably not.

Never, ever assume that high net-worth individuals pay income tax the same way everyone else does. Because they almost certainly do not.

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07-13-2017, 03:23 PM
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CrAzYNiNe
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Also this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
This is the only part of your postI take issue with.

You cannot talk strictly results without talking about the players. So many factors come into play.

2009-2010 --> Habs blowup the team, change the identity in it's entirety. They make it to the ECF on the back of Halak and some outstanding defense.

2010-2011 --> Habs improving. That D is STACKED! Andrei Markov, James Wisniewski, Roman Hamrlik, P.K. Subban, Josh Gorges, Hal Gill, Jaroslav Spacek. This is what MB dreams of. Having that type of depth was incredible. Unfortunately Max Pacioretty was taken out by Chara while he was on fire. Max in 3 games that year had 4 goals and 2 assist vs Boston. He had 11g and 17p in the 20 games before being injured. If you want to wash your hands based on results, you are out of your mind.

2011-2012 --> PG was very cheap. He let Wisniewski and Hamrlik walk. Markov's injury which was reported that he would be back late November, December turned into March. So the D core in that injured season was Subban, Gorges, Emelin (NHL Rookie), Diaz (NHL Rookie), Weber, Campoli, Gill and Spacek/Kaberle. Spacek and Gill both a year older at 37 and 36 respectively, couldn't handle the extra ice time (Spacek not having Hamrlik showed a lot). Not even close to the same D corps and it crumbled under the pressure.

2012-2013 --> Markov is back! This changes the whole dynamic of the D. Go into battle without your "General", nothing good will happen. Same top5 D, with the addition of "Swiss army knife" Francis Bouillon. Habs are bounced in the first round because in 5 games, they scored 3 goals once, and won that game. Forwards are again the issue.

2013-2014 --> Same D again, those 6 named above had the top ATOI that season. So what exactly did MB do to make this D better? From 3rd last to ECF. The forward group was handed a very helpful hand with the addition of Vanek. The Habs had a very solid top9 going into those playoffs and they were successful until Kreider and the Rangers ran into Price...

So I will not accept your point of view of regular season progress without looking at the players. This is the exact reason why so many of us are calling for MBs head. The team (Carey Price) is there, but the other supporting pieces are not coming together all at the same time.

Draft picks are nice and all, but we all know that a very high percentage do not make the NHL. The Habs had a competitive roster that was coming into their own and MB was unable to put them over the top. Is it impossible for MB to ice a Stanley Cup team this season, next season, etc? I don't think it's impossible, but he needs to take more risk to address the big holes in this roster; a scoring Center (like Marcus Johansson) and a LHD that can be a PMD and eat 20-22 minutes a game (probably much harder to come by, thus trading Sergachev may bite the Habs very hard).
I still can't find anyone who wants to refute the Habs 13-14 run was mostly on the laurels of the previous regimes work.

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07-13-2017, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Habaholicgolfer View Post
Are you ready? Saying that on these boards will draw you some attention. lol.

(for the record... I agree with you)
I am for anyone that is readying to speak on facts alone. Weber was 6th in Norris voting, Subban not in the top 20, not that this is the only factor.

Weber was Mtl top dmen by far, and I believe lead Mtl dmen in mintues in every category, ES/PK/PP TOI/G

Subban did not lead the Preds in both the regular season and in the playoffs in ES/PP/PK TOI/G

Weber for Mtl went up vs other teams top line regards.

The Preds use a 1A/1B scenario where they match up the strength of their D-men vs other teams ex. Subban did not have to face Crosby, and did not have to face Kane in the playoffs, those are the Pens and Hawks top offensively players. So you can't say Subban goes up vs other teams top players every game..

But this doesn't take away from Subban game, not sure he can't do it because he proven he could in MTl, and I would not do the trade, but those are based on none hockey factors aswell.

Other than Nashville going further in the playoffs which is a stupid way to judge two players, I can't see how anyone could say Bergevin should have gotten more based on last year play.

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07-13-2017, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
I can't understand how people make excuses for an NHL GM that wouldn't even fly for any of us in our job. Trying your best and not making the team better is ok because... he tried his best? Loser mentality.
Pro sports is a results-oriented business. Ownership's approach has mitigated and compromised that model. It's been a country club of self-congratulatory friends helping friends get promotions and contract extentions which has trickled down to mediocrity in several key aspects of the organization. Bergevin surviving this is more a testament of his lack of accountability and Geoff's lassez-faire attitude.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Belial View Post
How about Schlemko has a career year and Petry excels in transition being finally paired with a solid defensive defenceman that could allow him to focus more on offense and not trying to cover up for Emelin and Beaulieu every second shift?
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
huh?

...

Schlemko a career year is possible, but is it realistic that he will excel as a #2D playing 22 minutes a game over 82 games? He's never been more than a #4 guy in his career, but sure dream of him being a #2. Argue facts that if he is a #2 and he excels the Habs are in good position. So if I am pessimistic about thinking he is nothing more than a #4D, what are you thinking he will have a breakout year at 30 years old and be a #2?
Yeah, right. Now we need to dream about Schlemko having a career year just because management has not been able to sign someone who is an actual no. 2D. Only in Habsland.

This says it all:

Quote:
Originally Posted by beowulf View Post
He is a 30 year old dman that has not stuck anywhere. He is far from being good...come on how many players suddenly step up at 30? If he was so good he would not be on his 8th team in 4 years.

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07-13-2017, 03:29 PM
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I'm Alzner should go with Petry, and somebody else should go with Weber.

Can Schlemko carry the puck?

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07-13-2017, 03:31 PM
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I wonder which teams have offers out for Markov.

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07-13-2017, 03:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by habs03 View Post
I am for anyone that is readying to speak on facts alone. Weber was 6th in Norris voting, Subban not in the top 20, not that this is the only factor.

Weber was Mtl top dmen by far, and I believe lead Mtl dmen in mintues in every category, ES/PK/PP TOI/G

Subban did not lead the Preds in both the regular season and in the playoffs in ES/PP/PK TOI/G

Weber for Mtl went up vs other teams top line regards.

The Preds use a 1A/1B scenario where they match up the strength of their D-men vs other teams ex. Subban did not have to face Crosby, and did not have to face Kane in the playoffs, those are the Pens and Hawks top offensively players. So you can't say Subban goes up vs other teams top players every game..

But this doesn't take away from Subban game, not sure he can't do it because he proven he could in MTl, and I would not do the trade, but those are based on none hockey factors aswell.

Other than Nashville going further in the playoffs which is a stupid way to judge two players, I can't see how anyone could say Bergevin should have gotten more based on last year play.
You used Norris voting as an argument... At this point everything goes when it come to judge two players.

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07-13-2017, 03:32 PM
  #10
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quick question in terms of ppl opinion on this...

So AG gets a 3 year contract ext at 4.9M, thing I never liked about it is that it only buys 1 UFA year, when you could have gotten more after doing the bridge deal.

But looking at AG contact history after his ELC, some players at the time, and some ppl wanted to go straight to a 5-6 year deal, kinda like what a lot of players are getting, ex Gallagher at 6years after his ELC, and Druoin.

Can AG 3 year deal just an ext of that (actually being cheaper for the Habs, than what it would cost for a 5 year deal for AG after his ELC, likely between 5-6M)

Just trying to read of how they came to the 3 years, I find it odd for a 3 year deal after a bridge deal.

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07-13-2017, 03:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
You realize Pleks was a very consistent 20 goal scorer for the Habs? The only thing close is Danault. De La Rose will never be Plekanec, I don't see him having the offensive tools. 7 of 11 seasons where Plekanec played 60 games or more (the lockout shortened season is ignored, even if he was on pace for 20g over 82 games) he scored 20+ goals.
Should've clarified. Not to replace offensive Pleks from 09-10. His more recent shutdown role...which we don't have a replacement for ATM.

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07-13-2017, 03:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
Also this.



I still can't find anyone who wants to refute the Habs 13-14 run was mostly on the laurels of the previous regimes work.
The additions of Vanek and Brière were very helpful during that run. MB deserves credit for that. But he also deserves criticism for not replacing them properly the following years. In 13-14, outside of the top 6, the roster was full of players who had offensive potential, like Brière, Vanek, Bourque, Gionta, Eller. Sure, they were a bit disappointing because they weren't consistent, but they scored huge goals in the playoffs. Since then, those players were replaced by defensive minded players mostly, and the Habs can't score goals in the playoffs anymore...

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07-13-2017, 03:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by junyab View Post
Final offers are in to Radulov and Markov. "There's no negotiation." - Bergevin

He played hardball and lost.
This bears reiterating.

He wrote the ultimate book on how not to negotiate.

The Art of the Schlemiel.

He mismanaged the Subban negotiation ("I'm not shopping Subban", "Subban is a Hab for life" and "when you're offered Weber you don't ask for anything else"). And ended up burning any time left to exact more for Subban, by being hard up against Subban's NTC coming into effect a few days later.

Negotiated against himself for Shaw. Overpaid to acquire him. Overpaid and agreed to too much term with a third liner. Ended up paying a premium for services rendered to the Hawks. Bad deal when you're not 100% paying for future services, plus leaped to add a third liner with a skill set that is redundant (Gallagher is already an agitator and can easily outscore Shaw).

Jumped the gun on Plekanec, Emelin renewals. Got schooled by Pat Brisson on the DD deal. Completely mismanaged contingent negotiations with Radulov and Markov that would ultimately be impacted by the expansion draft.

Probably thought he had Radulov against the cables when he traded for Drouin. Played hardball, as you mention, with two of his most needed assets. Lost one for nothing. Should have never allowed Dallas to outspend him, may have had Radulov at the expense of one less contract he awarded to a scrub over the summer. The dog-buying loyalty comment was the most awkward and insensitive fuel-on-the-fire clueless barb you can pull when trying to not antagonize your counterpart.

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07-13-2017, 03:35 PM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by habs03 View Post
I am for anyone that is readying to speak on facts alone. Weber was 6th in Norris voting, Subban not in the top 20, not that this is the only factor.

Weber was Mtl top dmen by far, and I believe lead Mtl dmen in mintues in every category, ES/PK/PP TOI/G

Subban did not lead the Preds in both the regular season and in the playoffs in ES/PP/PK TOI/G

Weber for Mtl went up vs other teams top line regards.

The Preds use a 1A/1B scenario where they match up the strength of their D-men vs other teams ex. Subban did not have to face Crosby, and did not have to face Kane in the playoffs, those are the Pens and Hawks top offensively players. So you can't say Subban goes up vs other teams top players every game..

But this doesn't take away from Subban game, not sure he can't do it because he proven he could in MTl, and I would not do the trade, but those are based on none hockey factors aswell.

Other than Nashville going further in the playoffs which is a stupid way to judge two players, I can't see how anyone could say Bergevin should have gotten more based on last year play.
Weber definately had a better month of October. No contest. But since then, and especially including the playoffs, it's tough to say Weber was better than Subban. Advanced stats, regular stats, team record/success, eye test.... Eye test is subjective, but everything else clearly favors Subban. Not saying Weber was bad though, just Subban was better.


https://www.ontheforecheck.com/2017/...-dallas-rising

Edit: ^^ just a cool article about Subban being the best all-around D for Nashville this year.

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07-13-2017, 03:35 PM
  #15
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Originally Posted by OnTheRun View Post
You used Norris voting as an argument... At this point everything goes when it come to judge two players.
well the difference is that the voting for the Norris is based on players solely, where as how far a team went is team based.

But like I said I don't have a problem is someone says Norris voting should be taken with a gain a salt, its voted on by the press not GM or coaches or wtv.

But the issue with being it off team performance is than those that mean Rinne>Price.. or Weber was better than Subban at the time of the trade, because Preds made the playoffs and Habs didn't...

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07-13-2017, 03:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habaholicgolfer
I wonder how much $4.38M over 5 years is worth if you invest it? I think your bringing up offsets towards your favor but it likely doesn't measure up. However, Like I said, I'm not an accountant. I do keep hearing about the impact of taxes in different cities though and it's just not on these boards. Is it a real thing or not? Certainly not the first time it's been talked about and it's certainly not resolved between a you and me debate today.
Why do you keep saying $4.38M? Did you not follow the RCA discussion? RCA allows you to defer a portion of your salary in order to save a ton of money on taxes. SoutherHabs was arguing that it would be better to take the money upfront rather than deferring it because you'd end up making more via investments. I disagreed because I believe that you'll end up with either the same or more money with the RCA tax breaks AND you'll also be guaranteed to be more financially secure once retirement hits.

Of course we have no idea how much money he'd actually make with investments, so that part of the discussion was speculation on our parts.

Also, you have to realize that taxes affect athletes or extremely wealthy people differently than normal people. They have the ability to explore and take advantage of many more avenues than us regular folks. So the argument that this city has a higher tax rate than that city doesn't really apply here. There's much more to it than that.

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07-13-2017, 03:37 PM
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
I'm Alzner should go with Petry, and somebody else should go with Weber.

Can Schlemko carry the puck?
You don't want Schlemko to play 19+ ES minutes per game. He is a decent puck mover but he's not 1st pairing material, 19+ ES minutes would a massive increase in workload for him since his career avg is 14.5 ES minutes per game.

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07-13-2017, 03:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by habs03 View Post
I am for anyone that is readying to speak on facts alone. Weber was 6th in Norris voting, Subban not in the top 20, not that this is the only factor.

Weber was Mtl top dmen by far, and I believe lead Mtl dmen in mintues in every category, ES/PK/PP TOI/G

Subban did not lead the Preds in both the regular season and in the playoffs in ES/PP/PK TOI/G

Weber for Mtl went up vs other teams top line regards.

The Preds use a 1A/1B scenario where they match up the strength of their D-men vs other teams ex. Subban did not have to face Crosby, and did not have to face Kane in the playoffs, those are the Pens and Hawks top offensively players. So you can't say Subban goes up vs other teams top players every game..

But this doesn't take away from Subban game, not sure he can't do it because he proven he could in MTl, and I would not do the trade, but those are based on none hockey factors aswell.

Other than Nashville going further in the playoffs which is a stupid way to judge two players, I can't see how anyone could say Bergevin should have gotten more based on last year play.
While you are very factual in your argument and I have no basis to disagree, I will simply add to what you said, which may sway your opinion only slightly.

Weber was unlucky to be paired with lesser players, which meant he had to carry this team. He was used on average 3 minutes more than the next player, as he plays in every situation possible. I feel this took a huge toll on him and we saw it in the last 3 games vs the Rangers.

Because of the discrepancy in quality of the Habs D, he was the biggest stand out. I love Markov, but at this point in his career he needs to be a bottom pairing D with PP time. Subban on the other hand has 3 other D in Josi, Ellis and Elkholm who were able to handle the work load. Josi had 25 mins ATOI followed by Subban at 24:30, followed by Ellis 24, last Elkholm at 23:30. This shows that not one of them is relied heavily upon, but the 4 of them are.

Come the playoffs, the 4 of them were in the teams top8 for scoring. It seems to be more difficult to stand out in Nashville (although Subban had no business standing out this year) considering the top4 is so strong.

Going forward I would still prefer Subban as he continuously proves to be a driving force in the playoffs, while Weber has only 1 series win in his career. Does this mean anything? Maybe not.

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07-13-2017, 03:39 PM
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RickP View Post
Weber definately had a better month of October. No contest. But since then, and especially including the playoffs, it's tough to say Weber was better than Subban. Advanced stats, regular stats, team record/success, eye test.... Eye test is subjective, but everything else clearly favors Subban. Not saying Weber was bad though, just Subban was better.


https://www.ontheforecheck.com/2017/...-dallas-rising
Sorry link doesn't work, but maybe its cuz on my work cpu.

But anyone, one thing that makes it hard to see is usage, like I said Weber is used as a top guy in everyrole, and Subban isn't, it shows in time not just the TOI in ES/SH time but IMO matches up.

Vs team EDM Preds used Josi-Ellis vs McDavid every time, other teams Ekholm-Subban would go up vs Ovie, and like I said it was Josi pair vs Patrick Kane and Crosby..

Where as for the Habs, Weber is who goes up vs each of those players.

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07-13-2017, 03:41 PM
  #20
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I think everyone missed my point.

How much of the improvment to the team can be credited to MB can be debated till the cows come home.

What can't be debated is that before MB came on the team was below average in the standings and a playoff bubble team. If Habs didn't have injuries in 11-12 season you think they would of won the division? Most likely they limp into the playoffs even if they make it. Look at the roster it wasn't very good.

MB did not come into a Washington or Pittsburgh situation where he was taking a top team that was 1 step away from a cup. It was a team that struggled to make the playoffs the 4 years before and missed the year before he came in. It was a team that over 5 years amassed enough points to be in the bottom half of the league.

If you want to give MB 0 credit, 50% or all of it for them finishing in the top 8 over the next 5 years thats something that can be debated and discussed. The teams record before MB came on board can't. It was not a great team that was trending up.

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07-13-2017, 03:44 PM
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by habs03 View Post
well the difference is that the voting for the Norris is based on players solely, where as how far a team went is team based.

But like I said I don't have a problem is someone says Norris voting should be taken with a gain a salt, its voted on by the press not GM or coaches or wtv.

But the issue with being it off team performance is than those that mean Rinne>Price.. or Weber was better than Subban at the time of the trade, because Preds made the playoffs and Habs didn't...
Norris voting sole purpose is to determine who win the Norris, nothing more.
Finishing 6th in voting with 100 points (6% of the votes) when the Norris winner have over 1400 points is not relevant to anything.

Historically, the Norris is a 2-man race, you still have to write down 5 names on your ballot.

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07-13-2017, 03:44 PM
  #22
CrAzYNiNe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RickP View Post
The additions of Vanek and Brière were very helpful during that run. MB deserves credit for that. But he also deserves criticism for not replacing them properly the following years. In 13-14, outside of the top 6, the roster was full of players who had offensive potential, like Brière, Vanek, Bourque, Gionta, Eller. Sure, they were a bit disappointing because they weren't consistent, but they scored huge goals in the playoffs. Since then, those players were replaced by defensive minded players mostly, and the Habs can't score goals in the playoffs anymore...
I am not one to disagree that MB added pieces. But to say he built that team... I feel is very dishonest. Briere did come through with some timely plays, but he wasn't anywhere near the player we all hoped he would have been. Vanek was outstanding and I praised MB all the way to Hong Kong for that move. Losing him in UFA wasn't MBs fault either, the man wanted to go "home" to Minnesota. What bugged me is that MB doubled down the next year with Briere for PAP and no quality top6 player in. And so did mediocrity with 2 goals in 3 games vs Craig Anderson, followed by 7 goals in 5 games (or 13 goals in 6 games) vs TB. Goal scoring is the Habs biggest problem and I feel MB does a very poor job addressing this problem.

Welcome to 16-17 playoffs and Habs score 11 goals in 6 games. Same problem again!?

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07-13-2017, 03:46 PM
  #23
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MB had a centre, then he worked hard to turn him into a winger.

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07-13-2017, 03:46 PM
  #24
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Originally Posted by Emily View Post
Also, you have to realize that taxes affect athletes or extremely wealthy people differently than normal people. They have the ability to explore and take advantage of many more avenues than us regular folks. So the argument that this city has a higher tax rate than that city doesn't really apply here. There's much more to it than that.
It's laudable to try and get to the bottom of it with the resources that we have online but none of them can replace the type of information that is made available to Radulov's agent and which includes the complex analysis by chartered accountants, tax experts and international law firms.

Maybe an argument can be made that Radulov made money his front and center purpose, ahead of the good time he says he had in Montreal, the familiarity and support he had gained, playing for a rabid fanbase on an original 6 team, etc. I don't think many can dispute that he was more of a mercenary than a guy proud to wear the jersey. And on that basis, I'm willing to assume, that Dallas' offer provided more net takehome than the Habs' offer, even if, from a pure numbers on an offersheet standpoint, the figures and term offered by both Montreal and Dallas, may have been identical.

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07-13-2017, 03:46 PM
  #25
lostriver
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Originally Posted by Runner77 View Post
This bears reiterating.

He wrote the ultimate book on how not to negotiate.

The Art of the Schlemiel.
that Schlemiel got us Schlemko!

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