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Old
07-13-2017, 03:48 PM
  #26
Milhouse40
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Here's a piece of Friedman 30 thoughts:

Quote:
One thing a few different NHL executives agree on: Offer sheets are coming. Cam Fowler, Martin Jones, Marc-Edouard Vlasic and Price are gone from next year’s unrestricted class. “There simply are not enough impact players available in free agency,” one said. “If you need to improve your team — and fast — it’s going to be your best option.”
Intriguing especially since the Habs would be at the top of the list of desperate teams trying to get better while having cap space but no good option on the table to spend it.


Last edited by Milhouse40: 07-13-2017 at 04:04 PM.
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07-13-2017, 03:49 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by lostriver View Post
that Schlemiel got us Schlemko!
A 30-year old who schlepped his carcass amongst 8 teams.

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07-13-2017, 03:51 PM
  #28
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What killed unrestricted free agency?

Good players used to sometimes make it to free agency.

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07-13-2017, 03:52 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Runner77 View Post
A 30-year old who schlepped his carcass amongst 8 teams.
let's hope Schlemko is not a schlimazel


Last edited by lostriver: 07-13-2017 at 03:59 PM.
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07-13-2017, 03:52 PM
  #30
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What can't be debated is that before MB came on the team was below average in the standings and a playoff bubble team. If Habs didn't have injuries in 11-12 season you think they would of won the division? Most likely they limp into the playoffs even if they make it. Look at the roster it wasn't very good.
This is non sense.

You want to play the "if" game? Let's play.

If Markov played and scored his average points over the previous two years (0.8 PPG) that means he puts up 65 points in a full season.

65 points means Cammalerri doesn't say the team is **** and gets traded. That means 62 points more than the 3 he put up in his return, meaning the Habs score 62 more goals that season.

The Habs with 62 more goals means they have 274 GF and who knows how many less, based on Markov playing more minutes and not Kaberle or Diaz in his place.

They were trending up. 2nd in the division in 10-11 and 1st in 12-13.

Where have I seen this before? OH RIGHT: 1st in the division in 14-15, LAST in 15-16, 1st in 16-17.

Your arguments are very poor if you think that actual regular season division standings mean anything.

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07-13-2017, 03:54 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
What killed unrestricted free agency?

Good players used to sometimes make it to free agency.
The cap.

There aren't those feeder teams anymore that can't afford their good players.

Remember Ottawa back in the day? Once their players got good they bolted.

Or we can look at Baseball, the Expos. The NHL used to have a few Expos teams. With the cap now everyone can afford to keep their UFA's.

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07-13-2017, 03:58 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
While you are very factual in your argument and I have no basis to disagree, I will simply add to what you said, which may sway your opinion only slightly.

Weber was unlucky to be paired with lesser players, which meant he had to carry this team. He was used on average 3 minutes more than the next player, as he plays in every situation possible. I feel this took a huge toll on him and we saw it in the last 3 games vs the Rangers.

Because of the discrepancy in quality of the Habs D, he was the biggest stand out. I love Markov, but at this point in his career he needs to be a bottom pairing D with PP time. Subban on the other hand has 3 other D in Josi, Ellis and Elkholm who were able to handle the work load. Josi had 25 mins ATOI followed by Subban at 24:30, followed by Ellis 24, last Elkholm at 23:30. This shows that not one of them is relied heavily upon, but the 4 of them are.

Come the playoffs, the 4 of them were in the teams top8 for scoring. It seems to be more difficult to stand out in Nashville (although Subban had no business standing out this year) considering the top4 is so strong.

Going forward I would still prefer Subban as he continuously proves to be a driving force in the playoffs, while Weber has only 1 series win in his career. Does this mean anything? Maybe not.
I think everything your point on is what I'm trying to say. They are used in different roles, with Weber getting the much tougher role. It much easier to be a driving force when you don't have to go up vs other teams top line. I don't have the numbers in but I figure Weber likely gets a tone of D-zone starts, and matches up other teams top line regards. This is much tougher than getting matches up that suit your skillsets.

In regards to winning in general, honestly it is important, but I take it with a gain a salt just like Norris voting numbers. I mean Weber the number 1 player in TOI/G in the 2014 Olympics which was the one of the best teams created according to Stevie Y, and I believe he lead to team Canada in TOI/G during this year World cup, so its not like he is guy that never has won anything.

You can say well Preds with Weber never went past the 2nd round and now they made it to the Finals.. mean last year Ekholm and Ellis were not what they were now.

The Preds last year used Josi-Weber vs other teams top line regards and I believe both were at 24-25min a game with Ekholm-Ellis pair at around 20. where as they now have a 1A/1B pairing like you point out with the minutes.

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07-13-2017, 03:59 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scrubadam View Post
The cap.

There aren't those feeder teams anymore that can't afford their good players.

Remember Ottawa back in the day? Once their players got good they bolted.

Or we can look at Baseball, the Expos. The NHL used to have a few Expos teams. With the cap now everyone can afford to keep their UFA's.
Great answer, that makes sense.

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07-13-2017, 04:00 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
This is non sense.

You want to play the "if" game? Let's play.

If Markov played and scored his average points over the previous two years (0.8 PPG) that means he puts up 65 points in a full season.

65 points means Cammalerri doesn't say the team is **** and gets traded. That means 62 points more than the 3 he put up in his return, meaning the Habs score 62 more goals that season.

The Habs with 62 more goals means they have 274 GF and who knows how many less, based on Markov playing more minutes and not Kaberle or Diaz in his place.

They were trending up. 2nd in the division in 10-11 and 1st in 12-13.

Where have I seen this before? OH RIGHT: 1st in the division in 14-15, LAST in 15-16, 1st in 16-17.

Your arguments are very poor if you think that actual regular season division standings mean anything.
So what means anything? The team in 5 years before MB came on board was bottom half of the league. 3 years before 18th/16th/3rd last. How is this a team trending up?

Again I am not saying MB was a wizard and is the sole reason for the team becoming a top 8 team in the league. All I am saying is before MB came in the team was a bubble playoff team that struggled to make the playoffs. Thats black and white. The numbers and record are there. Might as well deny the earth is flat while your at it.

MB didn't come into a Wash/Pens situation. He came to a team that was barely a bubble playoff team. If you don't want to give MB any credit for the team turning around fine so be it we can disagree. But I will not agree to this revisionist history trying to say that the 4/5 years before MB came on board the habs were a strong team or team on the rise. Why couldn't they get 100 pt seasons or win the division often? The team essentially peaked in 08 and was on the down for the next 4 years. They had 1 lucky ECF run on Halaks back and outside of that it was a pretty bad period.

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07-13-2017, 04:02 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Milhouse40 View Post
Here's a piece of Friedman 30 thoughts:



Intriguing especialy since the Habs would be at the top of the list of desperate teams trying to get better while having cap space but no good option on the table to spend it.
I think this has been the case for a while, I mean can't think of any true first line player every made it to July 1st...

Ryan Suter and Zach Parise is all I can think of..

Even less likely now that there are contract length limits.

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07-13-2017, 04:03 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Runner77 View Post
A 30-year old who schlepped his carcass amongst 8 teams.
I think you're being pretty unfair. Schlemko is a quality depth addition for the team and came cheaply too. Its a real good move.

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07-13-2017, 04:05 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by habs03 View Post
I think everything your point on is what I'm trying to say. They are used in different roles, with Weber getting the much tougher role. It much easier to be a driving force when you don't have to go up vs other teams top line. I don't have the numbers in but I figure Weber likely gets a tone of D-zone starts, and matches up other teams top line regards. This is much tougher than getting matches up that suit your skillsets.

In regards to winning in general, honestly it is important, but I take it with a gain a salt just like Norris voting numbers. I mean Weber the number 1 player in TOI/G in the 2014 Olympics which was the one of the best teams created according to Stevie Y, and I believe he lead to team Canada in TOI/G during this year World cup, so its not like he is guy that never has won anything.

You can say well Preds with Weber never went past the 2nd round and now they made it to the Finals.. mean last year Ekholm and Ellis were not what they were now.

The Preds last year used Josi-Weber vs other teams top line regards and I believe both were at 24-25min a game with Ekholm-Ellis pair at around 20. where as they now have a 1A/1B pairing like you point out with the minutes.
Subban had the toughest matchups in the playoffs. I believe this was well reported about. I have always been a proponent for Subban D game, what I feel has been a detractor to his D game is that he takes risk and thus if he turns the puck over and is scored on, people attribute this to poor D, which I feel is not the case.

As for the NHL playoff success, it's not a knock on Weber, because as you alluded Nashville may not have been as good as they were this year. I don't follow Nashville, so I really can't judge. However I follow Montreal and Subban is a beast when the pressure is on. His playoff stats in Montreal are just amazing. It makes me sick to my stomach that our GM said things like "We have a better chance to win with Weber", which insinuates that you have less a chance with Subban, which really isn't true.

With all that said, Weber is a Hab and pray that MB gets his head out of his ass and finds him a quality partner so that Weber isn't always being leaned on. He needs help. Putting him with projects like Schlemko, Jerabek, Davidson... It doesn't help.

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07-13-2017, 04:11 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Captain Wolverine View Post
That $4.38M is difference after income tax. RCA contributions are taxed completely differently than income is. RCAs aren't an offset, its closer to (but isn't) a pension contribution that you have more control over.

Is the tax difference a real thing? Sure. Is it outrageously oversimplified when discussed in a sports context? Sure is. Is it the reason Radulov chose Dallas over Montreal? probably not.

Never, ever assume that high net-worth individuals pay income tax the same way everyone else does. Because they almost certainly do not.
If it isn't about $$$, please give us the undeniable reason why Radulov went to Dallas.

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07-13-2017, 04:11 PM
  #39
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So what means anything? The team in 5 years before MB came on board was bottom half of the league. 3 years before 18th/16th/3rd last. How is this a team trending up?

Again I am not saying MB was a wizard and is the sole reason for the team becoming a top 8 team in the league. All I am saying is before MB came in the team was a bubble playoff team that struggled to make the playoffs. Thats black and white. The numbers and record are there. Might as well deny the earth is flat while your at it.
What does 5 years before MB even matter? 3 years before Gainey and PG blew up the team. Koivu, Kovalev are a distant memory and have no place in this discussion.

I showed you, year by year the progress and you choose to ignore the players progress and insert non sense about placement in the standings.

It's futile for us to continue this discussion if you continue to resort to discussing the Habs place in the standings as the be all, end all facts. I want to talk about players, because it's the players that play hockey.

Again I will leave you with this if you want to actually discuss the progress of the team through the progress of the players and not through the standings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
This is the only part of your postI take issue with.

You cannot talk strictly results without talking about the players. So many factors come into play.

2009-2010 --> Habs blowup the team, change the identity in it's entirety. They make it to the ECF on the back of Halak and some outstanding defense.

2010-2011 --> Habs improving. That D is STACKED! Andrei Markov, James Wisniewski, Roman Hamrlik, P.K. Subban, Josh Gorges, Hal Gill, Jaroslav Spacek. This is what MB dreams of. Having that type of depth was incredible. Unfortunately Max Pacioretty was taken out by Chara while he was on fire. Max in 3 games that year had 4 goals and 2 assist vs Boston. He had 11g and 17p in the 20 games before being injured. If you want to wash your hands based on results, you are out of your mind.

2011-2012 --> PG was very cheap. He let Wisniewski and Hamrlik walk. Markov's injury which was reported that he would be back late November, December turned into March. So the D core in that injured season was Subban, Gorges, Emelin (NHL Rookie), Diaz (NHL Rookie), Weber, Campoli, Gill and Spacek/Kaberle. Spacek and Gill both a year older at 37 and 36 respectively, couldn't handle the extra ice time (Spacek not having Hamrlik showed a lot). Not even close to the same D corps and it crumbled under the pressure.

2012-2013 --> Markov is back! This changes the whole dynamic of the D. Go into battle without your "General", nothing good will happen. Same top5 D, with the addition of "Swiss army knife" Francis Bouillon. Habs are bounced in the first round because in 5 games, they scored 3 goals once, and won that game. Forwards are again the issue.

2013-2014 --> Same D again, those 6 named above had the top ATOI that season. So what exactly did MB do to make this D better? From 3rd last to ECF. The forward group was handed a very helpful hand with the addition of Vanek. The Habs had a very solid top9 going into those playoffs and they were successful until Kreider and the Rangers ran into Price...

So I will not accept your point of view of regular season progress without looking at the players. This is the exact reason why so many of us are calling for MBs head. The team (Carey Price) is there, but the other supporting pieces are not coming together all at the same time.

Draft picks are nice and all, but we all know that a very high percentage do not make the NHL. The Habs had a competitive roster that was coming into their own and MB was unable to put them over the top. Is it impossible for MB to ice a Stanley Cup team this season, next season, etc? I don't think it's impossible, but he needs to take more risk to address the big holes in this roster; a scoring Center (like Marcus Johansson) and a LHD that can be a PMD and eat 20-22 minutes a game (probably much harder to come by, thus trading Sergachev may bite the Habs very hard).

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07-13-2017, 04:12 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
Subban had the toughest matchups in the playoffs. I believe this was well reported about. I have always been a proponent for Subban D game, what I feel has been a detractor to his D game is that he takes risk and thus if he turns the puck over and is scored on, people attribute this to poor D, which I feel is not the case.

As for the NHL playoff success, it's not a knock on Weber, because as you alluded Nashville may not have been as good as they were this year. I don't follow Nashville, so I really can't judge. However I follow Montreal and Subban is a beast when the pressure is on. His playoff stats in Montreal are just amazing. It makes me sick to my stomach that our GM said things like "We have a better chance to win with Weber", which insinuates that you have less a chance with Subban, which really isn't true.

With all that said, Weber is a Hab and pray that MB gets his head out of his ass and finds him a quality partner so that Weber isn't always being leaned on. He needs help. Putting him with projects like Schlemko, Jerabek, Davidson... It doesn't help.
Please provide proof of this.. during the Hawks series he went up vs Toews, and Josi went up vs. Patick Kane..

I don't think anyone is going to tell me that Toews is harder to shutdown offensively than Kane..

And likely for the Pens series, Josi vs Crosby, Subban vs Malkin..

Not trying to take anything away but I just want to factual, you can't say Subban went up vs others teams top line game in game out..

I agree with you on the other parts though.

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07-13-2017, 04:13 PM
  #41
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If it isn't about $$$, please give us the undeniable reason why Radulov went to Dallas.
He think they have a better chance to win the cup?

I don't think so as they have a lot of unknowns just like the Habs. Their D is incredibly suspect and their goaltending can fall flat on it's face if Bishop sustains yet another injury.

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07-13-2017, 04:13 PM
  #42
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What killed unrestricted free agency?

Good players used to sometimes make it to free agency.
the 2005&2012 CBA as a whole was the coup de grace.

Long term contract were extremely rare before 2005, elite players would get 4-5 years deal, so a lot would hit the market at some point.
Then came the 2005 CBA and the 10+ years deal to cheat on the contract AAV, it also lowered the age of becoming an UFA from 28 to 26, which is an incentive for team to lock their players long term, sooner.

2012 eliminated the bogus years from contract structure and added the incentive to re-sign with your "home" team since they can offer 8 years deal while the competition can only offer 7 years.

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07-13-2017, 04:15 PM
  #43
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Please provide proof of this.. during the Hawks series he went up vs Toews, and Josi went up vs. Patick Kane..

I don't think anyone is going to tell me that Toews is harder to shutdown offensively than Kane..

And likely for the Pens series, Josi vs Crosby, Subban vs Malkin..

Not trying to take anything away but I just want to factual, you can't say Subban went up vs others teams top line game in game out..

I agree with you on the other parts though.
Real quick I found this.

Honestly it's a pretty pointless debate, because it's all opinions.

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07-13-2017, 04:15 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
Subban had the toughest matchups in the playoffs. I believe this was well reported about. I have always been a proponent for Subban D game, what I feel has been a detractor to his D game is that he takes risk and thus if he turns the puck over and is scored on, people attribute this to poor D, which I feel is not the case.

As for the NHL playoff success, it's not a knock on Weber, because as you alluded Nashville may not have been as good as they were this year. I don't follow Nashville, so I really can't judge. However I follow Montreal and Subban is a beast when the pressure is on. His playoff stats in Montreal are just amazing. It makes me sick to my stomach that our GM said things like "We have a better chance to win with Weber", which insinuates that you have less a chance with Subban, which really isn't true.

With all that said, Weber is a Hab and pray that MB gets his head out of his ass and finds him a quality partner so that Weber isn't always being leaned on. He needs help. Putting him with projects like Schlemko, Jerabek, Davidson... It doesn't help.
I admire your passion. And taking time to research...even if we disagree at times.

My biggest disagreement with you is this. No one has seen Alzner or Schlemko or Davidson or Jerabek play alongside with Weber. And because of that, worrying about speculation is an exercise in futility.

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07-13-2017, 04:18 PM
  #45
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If it isn't about $$$, please give us the undeniable reason why Radulov went to Dallas.
Deniable reason don't have to be countered by undeniable one.

Radulov going to Dallas for the money is an unproven narrative and a convenient one to shift the blame away from Bergevin.

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07-13-2017, 04:19 PM
  #46
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MB had a centre, then he worked hard to turn him into a winger.
How's ole Pierre Gauthier doing. Tell him I send my regards.

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07-13-2017, 04:20 PM
  #47
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If it isn't about $$$, please give us the undeniable reason why Radulov went to Dallas.
When is there ever an undeniable, singular reason for someone to do or not do something? It could be any number of things, or a combination of any number of things.

Radulov could not like Bergevin. He might want to play somewhere with warmer weather or less media pressure. He may want to play with Seguin or Benn more. He may have only been offered 4 years from Montreal (reports have been conflicting about the timing of certain offers). He may have liked Dallas' chances more than Montreal's chances. His accountant may not be very good. He may be a high roller that prefers to burn through his cash when he gets it. There are just so many variables to making a decision like where to sign.

Are you implying that income tax differences are an undeniable reason Radulov left? Because that's a pretty hefty burden of proof to place on oneself without rock-solid evidence.

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07-13-2017, 04:20 PM
  #48
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Deniable reason don't have to be countered by undeniable one.

Radulov going to Dallas for the money is an unproven narrative and a convenient one to shift the blame away from Bergevin.
Well hell. Instead of throwing out fancy nothing words, why don't you give out the undeniable truth?

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07-13-2017, 04:21 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Milhouse40 View Post
Here's a piece of Friedman 30 thoughts:



Intriguing especially since the Habs would be at the top of the list of desperate teams trying to get better while having cap space but no good option on the table to spend it.
I agree with Friedman and I hope he's right. The current GMs have become much more of a networking club than heads of competing businesses. If the job description of GM changes to require real business skills, more aggressive, shrewder men will start filling the position, and the backslapping ex-jocks will become obsolete.

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07-13-2017, 04:23 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
Real quick I found this.

Honestly it's a pretty pointless debate, because it's all opinions.
Well I try to keep it factual, the article itself stats he goes up vs "Jonathan Toews, Vladimir Tarasenko, and Ryan Getzlaf as often as coach Peter Laviolette could get the match-up"

The issue is Toews isn't the Hawks top offensive player, its Kane's line which is who Preds went up, author of the article knew that it goes up vs his point..

And again in the finals Subban didn't play vs Crosby.

Only opinion that could be argued on is if someone thinks that Malkin is the top player and no Crosby on the Pens, and its Toews and not Kane who is the offensively treat for the Hawks.

But like you said, this debate kinda goes nowhere but cheers anyways

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