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Old
07-14-2017, 11:40 AM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Captain Wolverine View Post
Those are actually the post-prime years of defensive D-men. Gorges, Staal, Girardi, Bieksa, Emelin all saw their games decline at that age.

the perfect type of D to pair with Petry is a more mobile defensive defenseman that can close gaps and not get blown past.
Alzner doesn't get blown past. Go ahead and count the amount of times he gets "blown past" this year. The guy isn't a pilon. He may be big, but he can move his feet and knows how to skate.

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07-14-2017, 11:42 AM
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Josh Gorges clone

Awful singing given hiw this team is build

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07-14-2017, 11:43 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by DramaticGloveSave View Post
He's not gonna blow guys up like Emelin, but he'll use his body to punish forwards down low and seperate them from the puck. That's what you want.

Look who we have up front in Galchenyuk and Drouin. 2 young top end offensive talents who struggle defensively. We'll get our offence from letting those 2 loose. How do you let them loose? By having quality veteran defenceman out there insulating them.
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Originally Posted by Belial View Post
With Emelin gone we definitely needed a solid defensive D.
Sure, nothing against the defensive part. But he barely provides any offence. We need secondary scoring. And primary scoring. Scoring period. Why not start by adding as much offence as we can from the back end (without overly sacrificing defence) until another quality offensive forward option becomes available.

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07-14-2017, 11:44 AM
  #54
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I can't speak on the other guys, but has Emelin declined physically? No, he just sucks defensively.
Yes he has. He lost his mobility (such that it was). He was better defensively when he came into the league. But his game fell off right around his age 29 season (in part due to injury).

Name me the defensive defensemen in the league right now, preferably with comparable footspeed, that are in their primes in the age range you provided. How many are even decent middle pair guys?

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07-14-2017, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Captain Wolverine View Post
Yes he has. He lost his mobility (such that it was). He was better defensively when he came into the league. But his game fell off right around his age 29 season (in part due to injury).

Name me the defensive defensemen in the league right now, preferably with comparable footspeed, that are in their primes in the age range you provided. How many are even decent middle pair guys?
I don't have my finger on the pulse of defensive defenceman league wide, but isn't Vlasic, widely regarded as the best defensive dman in the league within that age range? Has he fallen off? And didn't the Sharks just lock him up with an 8 year extension?

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07-14-2017, 11:52 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by DramaticGloveSave View Post
Alzner doesn't get blown past. Go ahead and count the amount of times he gets "blown past" this year. The guy isn't a pilon. He may be big, but he can move his feet and knows how to skate.


Blown past is probably not the right words, since its rare to see that happen to any D. More that he gets pushed back. He doesn't suppress shots against to any great degree and he bleeds shot from the crease area.

Every D in the NHL can move his feet and knows how to skate. That's moved from the average to the bare minimum. That's not good enough anymore.

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07-14-2017, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by DramaticGloveSave View Post
I don't have my finger on the pulse of defensive defenceman league wide, but isn't Vlasic, widely regarded as the best defensive dman in the league within that age range? Has he fallen off? And didn't the Sharks just lock him up with an 8 year extension?
Have you seen Vlasic play? He's very mobile. He also produces points more like Petry than Alzner.

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07-14-2017, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Captain Wolverine View Post


Blown past is probably not the right words, since its rare to see that happen to any D. More that he gets pushed back. He doesn't suppress shots against to any great degree and he bleeds shot from the crease area.

Every D in the NHL can move his feet and knows how to skate. That's moved from the average to the bare minimum. That's not good enough anymore.
You're the one saying he will get blown past

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07-14-2017, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Captain Wolverine View Post
Have you seen Vlasic play? He's very mobile. He also produces points more like Petry than Alzner.
He also just signed an 8 year deal at 7m AAV while being a year and a half older than Alzner.

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07-14-2017, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by DramaticGloveSave View Post
He also just signed an 8 year deal at 7m AAV while being a year and a half older than Alzner.
Its not a great deal either, but comparing Vlasic and Alzner is like comparing Simmonds to Shaw.

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07-14-2017, 11:59 AM
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Its not a great deal either, but comparing Vlasic and Alzner is like comparing Simmonds to Shaw.
We were talking about the ability to play defence in regards to age were we not?

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07-14-2017, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by DramaticGloveSave View Post
We were talking about the ability to play defence in regards to age were we not?
We were talking about defensive defensemen in the mold of Alzner. Vlasic is more like Petry with a better defensive game. And he's declined from his age 29 season.

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07-14-2017, 12:09 PM
  #63
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Sure, nothing against the defensive part. But he barely provides any offence. We need secondary scoring. And primary scoring. Scoring period. Why not start by adding as much offence as we can from the back end (without overly sacrificing defence) until another quality offensive forward option becomes available.
What offensive D was available out there?

You need both, pairing a puck mover with a defensively steady guy is the best thing to do IMO.
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Originally Posted by Captain Wolverine View Post
Yes he has. He lost his mobility (such that it was). He was better defensively when he came into the league. But his game fell off right around his age 29 season (in part due to injury).

Name me the defensive defensemen in the league right now, preferably with comparable footspeed, that are in their primes in the age range you provided. How many are even decent middle pair guys?
Methot, Coburn, Hjalmarsson, Braun, Staal, Vlasic, Russel, Benn...

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07-14-2017, 12:10 PM
  #64
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We were talking about defensive defensemen in the mold of Alzner. Vlasic is more like Petry with a better defensive game. And he's declined from his age 29 season.
I don't doubt Vlasics offence will decline as he ages, but we are talking about defence here.

Hockey players who rely on smarts and power tend to age well, as smarts and strength don't decline. Look at our own Shea Weber, led the league in goal suppression at the age of 32. Has he declined defensively?

Heck look at Jagr. The ultimate strength/IQ guy. Playing into his 40s. His other skills have declined, but the guy can still outmuscle opponents and read the game. (And no, I'm not comparing Alzner to Jagr )

Why is Alzner going to decline?

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07-14-2017, 12:11 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Captain Wolverine View Post
the perfect type of D to pair with Petry is a more mobile defensive defenseman that can close gaps and not get blown past.
Who are you suggesting is or will get blown past?

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07-14-2017, 12:21 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by DramaticGloveSave View Post
I don't doubt Vlasics offence will decline as he ages, but we are talking about defence here.

Hockey players who rely on smarts and power tend to age well, as smarts and strength don't decline. Look at our own Shea Weber, led the league in goal suppression at the age of 32. Has he declined defensively?

Heck look at Jagr. The ultimate strength/IQ guy. Playing into his 40s. His other skills have declined, but the guy can still outmuscle opponents and read the game. (And no, I'm not comparing Alzner to Jagr )

Why is Alzner going to decline?
Because Alzner is a contact D, not a cerebral defensive D. He's not a hitter, but he sacrifices the body on blocked shots and uses his size along the boards. He's not like Vlasic (or Markov) who is a read the play type of defensive D. And strength is entirely dependent on lifestyle and ability (through health) to be able to maintain it as people leave peak fitness age (which is our 20s).

And he may have already declined. We have an example of 3rd pair Alzner, it was the one in Washington to end the season. The question is how will he bounce back.

As for Weber, he's declined too. He's not the same D he was in his late 20s. His offense is starting to disappear at even strength and he's not the play driver he once was. He's also gotten less effective at shot and chance suppression.

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07-14-2017, 12:31 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Captain Wolverine View Post
Because Alzner is a contact D, not a cerebral defensive D. He's not a hitter, but he sacrifices the body on blocked shots and uses his size along the boards. He's not like Vlasic (or Markov) who is a read the play type of defensive D. And strength is entirely dependent on lifestyle and ability (through health) to be able to maintain it as people leave peak fitness age (which is our 20s).

And he may have already declined. We have an example of 3rd pair Alzner, it was the one in Washington to end the season. The question is how will he bounce back.

As for Weber, he's declined too. He's not the same D he was in his late 20s. His offense is starting to disappear at even strength and he's not the play driver he once was. He's also gotten less effective at shot and chance suppression.
I like these labels. "Contact D". You like to categorize things don't you? Trust me, or don't, but you are going to be pleasantly surprised by this contract. And Weber hasn't declined lmao. Dude scored 17 goals last year and led the league in goal suppression.

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07-14-2017, 01:02 PM
  #68
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What offensive D was available out there?

You need both, pairing a puck mover with a defensively steady guy is the best thing to do IMO.
Who is the puck mover that we're pairing this guy with? Please, don't tell me Petry, he wasn't a puck mover last year but now all of a sudden, thanks to depleted resources, he's become one by default?

And that's just the point, you don't need to sign a guy at that money for 5 years just for his defensive prowess. Plenty of Ds offering that skill set abound and many are cost controlled. You pay for an offensive D on account of need and scarcity. You don't need to pay for an Alzner.

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07-14-2017, 01:16 PM
  #69
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Since 2013, 91 defencemen have played 300 games.

When ranking them in even strength points, Karl Alzner is #62 with 75 points in 376 games. For comparison, Alexei Emelin was #76 with 62 points in 313 games.

Alzner: 0.199
Emelin: 0.198

Huge improvement.

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07-14-2017, 01:31 PM
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Who is the puck mover that we're pairing this guy with? Please, don't tell me Petry, he wasn't a puck mover last year but now all of a sudden, thanks to depleted resources, he's become one by default?

And that's just the point, you don't need to sign a guy at that money for 5 years just for his defensive prowess. Plenty of Ds offering that skill set abound and many are cost controlled. You pay for an offensive D on account of need and scarcity. You don't need to pay for an Alzner.
Petry is not a puck mover? Come on now...

What is Petry then? A defensive defenceman? He ain't Karlsson but he's definitely a PMD.

Alzner is better than you think. Plenty of D's available? Where? Who?

Again, I already asked you what offensive D was available apart Shattenkirk who plays on the right side?


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Originally Posted by No Team Needed View Post
Since 2013, 91 defencemen have played 300 games.

When ranking them in even strength points, Karl Alzner is #62 with 75 points in 376 games. For comparison, Alexei Emelin was #76 with 62 points in 313 games.

Alzner: 0.199
Emelin: 0.198

Huge improvement.
Alzner is better defensively, that's the improvement.

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07-14-2017, 01:38 PM
  #71
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Alzner is better defensively, that's the improvement.
Yeah, because everyone was saying after the Rangers loss that what the Habs needed wasn't scoring but better defence.

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07-14-2017, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by No Team Needed View Post
Since 2013, 91 defencemen have played 300 games.

When ranking them in even strength points, Karl Alzner is #62 with 75 points in 376 games. For comparison, Alexei Emelin was #76 with 62 points in 313 games.

Alzner: 0.199
Emelin: 0.198

Huge improvement.
Strange that you would compare their point production. Who cares?

Alzner was brought in to be a defensive upgrade over Emelin, not an offensive upgrade. Turns out he actually *is* an offensive upgrade too, but that's just gravy.

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07-14-2017, 01:42 PM
  #73
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Petry is not a puck mover? Come on now...

What is Petry then? A defensive defenceman? He ain't Karlsson but he's definitely a PMD.

Alzner is better than you think. Plenty of D's available? Where? Who?

Again, I already asked you what offensive D was available apart Shattenkirk who plays on the right side?
Well, if knew who was available, I'd have a pro scouting department at my disposal and reports on every team's potential player movements. Since I don't, I'm not going to play GM on a message board and throw darts at stuff, cause it's meaningless. We can discuss trendlines, weak links, desirable assets, overpayments, team building, management strategy, planning. These are the type of fan tenable opinions on a message board. Which is what I've tried to do with Alzner. Just giving an opinion, I could be wrong and if I am, I'll accept it. I'm not an expert at the divinatory arts.

It appears to me that the time to own Alzner was before he became a UFA. Washington made the right play by not signing him. Habs got caught with Bergevin's cratering on LHDs and took the path of immediate least resistance in Alzner. This is not what a forward thinking GM does. It smacks of a panic move. No GM goes into an off season losing the whole left side of his defence (save for Markov, still up in the air) -- it's complete and utter mismanagement. Alzner is a direct by-product of that.

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07-14-2017, 02:00 PM
  #74
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It appears to me that the time to own Alzner was before he became a UFA. Washington made the right play by not signing him. Habs got caught with Bergevin's cratering on LHDs and took the path of immediate least resistance in Alzner. This is not what a forward thinking GM does. It smacks of a panic move. No GM goes into an off season losing the whole left side of his defence (save for Markov, still up in the air) -- it's complete and utter mismanagement. Alzner is a direct by-product of that.
It's Ottawa letting Volchenkov walk and New Jersey thinking they got a great top four defenceman out of it.

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07-14-2017, 02:09 PM
  #75
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Well, if knew who was available, I'd have a pro scouting department at my disposal and reports on every team's potential player movements. Since I don't, I'm not going to play GM on a message board and throw darts at stuff, cause it's meaningless. We can discuss trendlines, weak links, desirable assets, overpayments, team building, management strategy, planning. These are the type of fan tenable opinions on a message board. Which is what I've tried to do with Alzner. Just giving an opinion, I could be wrong and if I am, I'll accept it. I'm not an expert at the divinatory arts.
You mean just like this management has a pro scouting department and information on who's available and what the asking price is?

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It appears to me that the time to own Alzner was before he became a UFA. Washington made the right play by not signing him. Habs got caught with Bergevin's cratering on LHDs and took the path of immediate least resistance in Alzner. This is not what a forward thinking GM does. It smacks of a panic move. No GM goes into an off season losing the whole left side of his defence (save for Markov, still up in the air) -- it's complete and utter mismanagement. Alzner is a direct by-product of that.
Washington is in cap hell, they didn't let Alzner go because he sucks but because they don't have the cap space to keep the guy.

Panic move? Come on, he signed Jerabek months ago and the Beaulieu trade was just a matter of time.

If he was afraid of losing Emelin he would've made a deal with GMGM to keep the guy.

If Bergevin was in panic mode Markov would've been already signed at 6Mx2 and Radulov would've got a blank cheque.

I don't feel any panic whatsoever...

They had Alzner on their radar the whole way IMO and this was not a knee jerk signing.

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