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Article: It's time for Kenny to go

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Old
07-15-2017, 10:57 AM
  #1
StargateSG1
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Article: It's time for Kenny to go

https://www.fanragsports.com/nhl/red...h-ken-holland/

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07-15-2017, 11:16 AM
  #2
Bench
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Basically what's been said around here for a few years. You can boil down the failure from the first line.

Quote:
It has been nine seasons since the Detroit Red Wings last made it past the second round of the Stanley Cup playoffs.
Why are we so willing to accept that as OK? Because sports are hard? Aren't the Wings supposed to be a model franchise, not another team going, "Gee wiz sports are hard to win."

Other general managers who locked up more than 2 or more contracts that couldn't be traded would either be removed or lame ducks. But because of his legacy, he'll stick long as he wants.

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07-15-2017, 12:39 PM
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There are some of us here that have been calling for him to go for years. Nothing he has done other than his short comings have stood out in years. He has over stayed in his job running others who could have and should have taken that spot.

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07-15-2017, 12:59 PM
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hockeyisforeveryone
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Meh not a whole lot of fresh insight or mature analysis of why/how the Red Wings have gotten where they are today. I find the snarky tone is better suited for a blog than a sports "article". You'd never read the Atlantic allowing themselves such opinionated rhetoric.

Quote:
...Despite hiding behind one of the oldest and most respected banners in the NHL...
Quote:
...They managed to keep their precious postseason streak alive...
I don't know certain statements just rub me the wrong way. The real problem with this piece is the lack of depth considering our inevitable decline and the more subtle elements of our response. While he has to take responsibility there are numerous factors that Holland has no control over. The demands we remain a SC threat forever are childish.

Comparing our situation to a team like Pittsburgh who drafted two elite franchise players currently in the prime of their career is nonsensical. We have one core member of our SC runs left, Zetterberg. These are two different eras.

Quote:
Hes traded away useful NHLers Brendan Smith and Calle Jarnkrok while trying to ride second-rate free-agent signings back to the top of the mountain.
This argument is reaching into territory that would get laughed out of HF.

Quote:
And the longer hes allowed to drive this car down the road, the more damage will be done. The Tomas Tatar negotiations ought to be the last straw, even though the list of transgressions is long.
The last straw? Wasn't the last straw exposing Mrazek or waiving Pulkkinen? Tatar going to arbitration (like Nike) is much ado about nothing and takes away focus on the actual misdirection of the organization.

Don't forget Holland is the face of management. If there are complaints they must logically be directed at the entire organization and that includes ownership. A new GM might change little unless the franchise is willing to.

I believe we could use a fresh personality as GM but for almost none of the reasons outlined. The author misses the boat grasping the honest failings of the team as the window of contending closed: that they've been satisfied to slowly coast downward instead of approaching the predicament proactively. The rebuild is being drawn out at a snail's pace, much too conservative for (many) knowledgeable Wings fans.

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07-15-2017, 01:35 PM
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bench View Post
B
Why are we so willing to accept that as OK? Because sports are hard? Aren't the Wings supposed to be a model franchise, not another team going, "Gee wiz sports are hard to win."
It all looks so obvious in hindsight, but in many of those years we were right there as a team that could have put together a deeper run. Especially the two 2nd round losses to SJ, the 2nd round loss to Chicago, even Babcock's last season we could have gone on a run.

I agree with hockeyisforeveryone, this kind of opinionated piece offers pretty much zero actual insightful commentary about what Holland & Co. actually did wrong and what else could have realistically been done considering the inevitability of the decline of our core players. Wings are "supposed" to be a model franchise but it's simply impossible to expect them to be a contender for 30 straight years. So the last 8-9 have been mostly spent in either the tier right below the top contenders or in the 'bubble team' tier. Woe is us.

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07-15-2017, 01:49 PM
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Lazlo Hollyfeld
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Originally Posted by Pavels Dog View Post
It all looks so obvious in hindsight, but in many of those years we were right there as a team that could have put together a deeper run. Especially the two 2nd round losses to SJ, the 2nd round loss to Chicago, even Babcock's last season we could have gone on a run.

I agree with hockeyisforeveryone, this kind of opinionated piece offers pretty much zero actual insightful commentary about what Holland & Co. actually did wrong and what else could have realistically been done considering the inevitability of the decline of our core players. Wings are "supposed" to be a model franchise but it's simply impossible to expect them to be a contender for 30 straight years. So the last 8-9 have been mostly spent in either the tier right below the top contenders or in the 'bubble team' tier. Woe is us.
Maybe so, but it's been at least 4 years since this team had any chance of making any sort of serious run. They've been a first round tuneup for legit teams, at best.

I certainly don't expect the Wings to be contenders for 30+ years. They had to fall from the top eventually. But I do expect (or at least hope) that the GM recognizes that inevitable fall from the top and stops acting like a couple tweaks are going to get the team back there while he signs supporting players to ridiculous contracts.

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Old
07-15-2017, 02:00 PM
  #7
StargateSG1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavels Dog View Post
It all looks so obvious in hindsight, but in many of those years we were right there as a team that could have put together a deeper run. Especially the two 2nd round losses to SJ, the 2nd round loss to Chicago, even Babcock's last season we could have gone on a run.

I agree with hockeyisforeveryone, this kind of opinionated piece offers pretty much zero actual insightful commentary about what Holland & Co. actually did wrong and what else could have realistically been done considering the inevitability of the decline of our core players. Wings are "supposed" to be a model franchise but it's simply impossible to expect them to be a contender for 30 straight years. So the last 8-9 have been mostly spent in either the tier right below the top contenders or in the 'bubble team' tier. Woe is us.
There is nothing "hindsight" about most of this.
Not signing mediocre players to long term loyalty deals would be a good start (8 bad contracts on 1 team is incompetence).
Making a trade to make the team better would be useful.
Not being caught completely off guard by Lidstrom retirement could be cool (Yeah, yeah, he wanted Suter, who everyone knew was going to Minny).
Having a plan to rebuild would be nice. Making 8th seed is not a plan.
Not wasting prime years of Datsyuk and Zetterberg

The list is long

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07-15-2017, 02:06 PM
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France Nielsen
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I no longer think it would mean much for Kenny to go after reading Bill Roose's AMA on reddit the other day. If Kenny goes, we'll get Draper, and Chris Ilitch will make Draper do the same stuff to make the playoffs and make his money.

I mean, sure, we avoid a couple of bad contracts to grinders I suppose, but it won't be rebuild time. Chris Ilitch doesn't care enough about the team to let them rebuild.

Here's the link: https://www.reddit.com/r/DetroitRedW...er_bill_roose/

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07-15-2017, 02:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavels Dog View Post
It all looks so obvious in hindsight, but in many of those years we were right there as a team that could have put together a deeper run. Especially the two 2nd round losses to SJ, the 2nd round loss to Chicago, even Babcock's last season we could have gone on a run.

I agree with hockeyisforeveryone, this kind of opinionated piece offers pretty much zero actual insightful commentary about what Holland & Co. actually did wrong and what else could have realistically been done considering the inevitability of the decline of our core players. Wings are "supposed" to be a model franchise but it's simply impossible to expect them to be a contender for 30 straight years. So the last 8-9 have been mostly spent in either the tier right below the top contenders or in the 'bubble team' tier. Woe is us.
No one demanded they be a contender for 30 straight years... In fact, wanting to have a few bad years in order to acquire elite talent is the exact opposite of demanding to remain a contender.

Our problem with him is that we believe with the way he's running things, the mediocrity is going to last a whole lot longer than it needs to.

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07-15-2017, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by hockeyisforeveryone View Post
Meh not a whole lot of fresh insight or mature analysis of why/how the Red Wings have gotten where they are today. I find the snarky tone is better suited for a blog than a sports "article". You'd never read the Atlantic allowing themselves such opinionated rhetoric.
and that's what separates the the average joe internet writers from the the real ones such as those at the athletic

You need to be able to provide criticism without going overboard and without the snarky and childish tone

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07-15-2017, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by France Nielsen View Post
I no longer think it would mean much for Kenny to go after reading Bill Roose's AMA on reddit the other day. If Kenny goes, we'll get Draper, and Chris Ilitch will make Draper do the same stuff to make the playoffs and make his money.

I mean, sure, we avoid a couple of bad contracts to grinders I suppose, but it won't be rebuild time. Chris Ilitch doesn't care enough about the team to let them rebuild.

Here's the link: https://www.reddit.com/r/DetroitRedW...er_bill_roose/
i think the biggest Revelation to come out of that ama is the fact that mlive pulled the plug on providing travel expenses for the wings beat writer ansar khan. I think mlive sees the writing on the wall for this wings team

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07-15-2017, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by hockeyisforeveryone View Post
Comparing our situation to a team like Pittsburgh who drafted two elite franchise players currently in the prime of their career is nonsensical. We have one core member of our SC runs left, Zetterberg. These are two different eras.
The only way I would compare Detroit-Pittsburgh is that Detroit extended their success for about 10 years, at least, by doing the exact same thing Pittsburgh did. By drafting two elite players to build around. Because that's how you become really successful in this league. Not with depth like Kenny likes to delude himself, but with elite talent. We got reaaaally lucky with D and Z, pretty much like getting free #1-2 overall draft picks. Just like Pittsburgh did with Crosby/Malkin.

It just so happens that drafting elite players in the 5th/6th rounds is even more ridiculously unlikely today than it was in previous eras. Scouting is just too widespread, and uniform, every team sees these players now. The only way to increase your odds to get these players in any meaningful way is to be picking high enough that other teams don't have a chance to do it first.

Let's look at the 2015 draft as an example. If you're picking 10th, you still have players like Kyle Connor, Zboril, Svechnikov, etc on the board. If you're picking 3rd, you can choose from Strome/Marner/Hanifin/Zacha/Provorov/Werenski. The difference is tremendous in terms of what you have available to choose from.

The anti-tank crowd likes to bring up lottery odds and the unlikelihood of getting #1 even if you were the worst team. But as you can see above, there were still very good players available once McDavid/Eichel were off the board. Kenny fails to see that it doesn't matter how good your scouting and prospect development is if you're not picking high enough to acquire the players that can eventually be developed into stars.

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07-15-2017, 02:40 PM
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Water is wet

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07-15-2017, 03:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StargateSG1 View Post
There is nothing "hindsight" about most of this.
Not signing mediocre players to long term loyalty deals would be a good start (8 bad contracts on 1 team is incompetence).
Making a trade to make the team better would be useful.
Not being caught completely off guard by Lidstrom retirement could be cool (Yeah, yeah, he wanted Suter, who everyone knew was going to Minny).
Having a plan to rebuild would be nice. Making 8th seed is not a plan.
Not wasting prime years of Datsyuk and Zetterberg

The list is long
- Yes, there is tons of hindsight. Wings had 100+ points in 09-10, 10-11, 11-12 and 14-15. They had 3 playoff exits where they lost in 7 games, many of them extremely narrow exits. One bounce here or there and the entire narrative of the Holland-bashers could have been forced to change. In hindsight it may look like a team that never had a chance, but that wasn't reality. There was lots of great hockey being played and lots of hope for deep playoff runs.
The fact that it didn't happen doesn't mean Holland should have pulled the plug on the team years ago.

- Trading to make the team better is a nice idea but difficult in reality. Trading to make the team different is more likely. Landing top pairing d-men via trade is extremely difficult and it's the piece we started needing the day Rafalski retired. Wanting Holland fired for not trading to fix that problem is.. well, it's extremely high expectations. If Holland pulled it off, he'd be the greatest GM in the history of sports no questions asked and we'd be on our way to smashing the all-time playoff streak.

- Yeah, so terrible being caught "off guard" by the retirement of the greatest D-man to ever play the game (Orr who?). Just look at all the teams that seamlessly replaced generational talents.. I have the list right here:

- Plan to rebuild: draft, develop, try to win. If you don't win, sell for picks, draft more, develop more, try to win.

- Prime years of Dats and Z were spent exclusively in the playoffs with the Wings being #1 in both regular season wins and playoff wins. "Wasting prime years of Dats and Z" is pretty much the last thing Holland is guilty of. If anything, the team could have been better off today if he HAD wasted some of their good years in order to jumpstart a rebuild or if he had completely avoided any TDL-acquisitions or things of that nature.

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07-15-2017, 03:28 PM
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Kenny is dragging this team down, towards lower and lower on the standings, and higher and higher draft positions, and you people want him go?

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07-15-2017, 03:54 PM
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"The baddest bowl in hockey" lol It's gonna be bad alright...

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07-15-2017, 04:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by France Nielsen View Post
I no longer think it would mean much for Kenny to go after reading Bill Roose's AMA on reddit the other day. If Kenny goes, we'll get Draper, and Chris Ilitch will make Draper do the same stuff to make the playoffs and make his money.

I mean, sure, we avoid a couple of bad contracts to grinders I suppose, but it won't be rebuild time. Chris Ilitch doesn't care enough about the team to let them rebuild.

Here's the link: https://www.reddit.com/r/DetroitRedW...er_bill_roose/
The article in post #1 was totally not thread-worthy (sorry), so thanks for posting this.

Really hoping for an external candidate, but if I were forced to pick an internal candidate it would be Jiri Fischer. Don't want Martin, and I feel like Draper would be very conservative like Holland.

Really need someone who is progressive and has their own ideas and methods.

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07-15-2017, 05:42 PM
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100 points doesn't mean anything in this era. Not with the loser point,it just doesn't. You can get 95 to 100 points and be a fringe playoff team. It doesn't make you a contender unless you believe being a contender means making the playoffs and anything can happen. There's no hindsight here,not for at least the last 5 years.

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07-15-2017, 05:52 PM
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We haven't been a non contender for 10 straight years. First we won in 2008, game away in 09, still competitive from 10-13, so 4 years we haven't been a top contender and we still made the playoffs in all but one of those other 4 years. His over-dramatized view, is exactly the view, of someone who has no place writing about hockey.

Also, rag on the bad cap situation all you want, that is fair game, (Everyone Knows This, Not an Insight) but I too would be extremely hesitant of giving Tatar anything more than a 5 x 5. I want him gone, at this point. People seem to forget, that last year, he played very poorly and low impact and effort for the first 60 games, and then had a hot streak to hit 25 goals and 46 points, long after it was important to us. How many games, did he and Nyquist, look near invisible for us, and provided so many un-impactful moments.

I personally don't mind Tatar, but so many invisible nights, leave me not wanting a 5 million dollar 20 goal scorer who doesn't drive the offense.

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07-15-2017, 06:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Syckle78 View Post
100 points doesn't mean anything in this era. Not with the loser point,it just doesn't. You can get 95 to 100 points and be a fringe playoff team. It doesn't make you a contender unless you believe being a contender means making the playoffs and anything can happen. There's no hindsight here,not for at least the last 5 years.
7th, 6th, 8th leaguewide is fringe playoff team? 14-15 you can argue, we were 12th in the league, but for like 80% of the season we were doing great, only in the last month or two we slowed down.

And like I said, there's a tier right below the top contenders. It's not hell to be there, teams like STL/NSH/SJ/MON/etc have spent a lot of time there in recent years.

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07-15-2017, 07:27 PM
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Kenny is dragging this team down, towards lower and lower on the standings, and higher and higher draft positions, and you people want him go?
ah, more baiting.

To me it's pretty clear that people are mostly afraid he will put the Wings in hockey purgatory. Retooling the roster with bad contracts and secondary players but never acquiring enough talent to be a real threat in the standings or playoffs.

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07-15-2017, 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Pavels Dog View Post
- Yes, there is tons of hindsight. Wings had 100+ points in 09-10, 10-11, 11-12 and 14-15. They had 3 playoff exits where they lost in 7 games, many of them extremely narrow exits. One bounce here or there and the entire narrative of the Holland-bashers could have been forced to change. In hindsight it may look like a team that never had a chance, but that wasn't reality. There was lots of great hockey being played and lots of hope for deep playoff runs.
The fact that it didn't happen doesn't mean Holland should have pulled the plug on the team years ago.

- Trading to make the team better is a nice idea but difficult in reality. Trading to make the team different is more likely. Landing top pairing d-men via trade is extremely difficult and it's the piece we started needing the day Rafalski retired. Wanting Holland fired for not trading to fix that problem is.. well, it's extremely high expectations. If Holland pulled it off, he'd be the greatest GM in the history of sports no questions asked and we'd be on our way to smashing the all-time playoff streak.

- Yeah, so terrible being caught "off guard" by the retirement of the greatest D-man to ever play the game (Orr who?). Just look at all the teams that seamlessly replaced generational talents.. I have the list right here:

- Plan to rebuild: draft, develop, try to win. If you don't win, sell for picks, draft more, develop more, try to win.

- Prime years of Dats and Z were spent exclusively in the playoffs with the Wings being #1 in both regular season wins and playoff wins. "Wasting prime years of Dats and Z" is pretty much the last thing Holland is guilty of. If anything, the team could have been better off today if he HAD wasted some of their good years in order to jumpstart a rebuild or if he had completely avoided any TDL-acquisitions or things of that nature.
The guy you are so desperately trying to find excuses for build this:

http://www.thehockeynews.com/news/ar...to-win-the-cup

No star power in top 4 tiers and ranked 29th overall.

I know, I know, "trades are hard" and stuff

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07-15-2017, 08:23 PM
  #23
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Originally Posted by StargateSG1 View Post
The guy you are so desperately trying to find excuses for build this:

http://www.thehockeynews.com/news/ar...to-win-the-cup

No star power in top 4 tiers and ranked 29th overall.

I know, I know, "trades are hard" and stuff
Honestly though, who cares about some made up thing, called, "game scores", which I have never even heard of. All these extra stat tracking and terms are beyond ridiculous. I love looking at stats and stuff, but in terms of their value on how good someone is, I think many of the advanced stats don't give any accurate measure at all.

Like for example, the GF/60 of a defensive center, or the shot generation of a shot blocking shutdown defenceman. Just a load of bull.

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07-15-2017, 09:06 PM
  #24
StargateSG1
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Honestly though, who cares about some made up thing, called, "game scores", which I have never even heard of. All these extra stat tracking and terms are beyond ridiculous. I love looking at stats and stuff, but in terms of their value on how good someone is, I think many of the advanced stats don't give any accurate measure at all.

Like for example, the GF/60 of a defensive center, or the shot generation of a shot blocking shutdown defenceman. Just a load of bull.
Some of the advanced stats shouldn't be treated as "bible",
but should be included when looking at the big picture.

Example? Advanced stats said David Clarkson was a very bad player, but Toronto ignored it.

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07-15-2017, 09:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Bench View Post
Basically what's been said around here for a few years. You can boil down the failure from the first line.



Why are we so willing to accept that as OK? Because sports are hard? Aren't the Wings supposed to be a model franchise, not another team going, "Gee wiz sports are hard to win."

Other general managers who locked up more than 2 or more contracts that couldn't be traded would either be removed or lame ducks. But because of his legacy, he'll stick long as he wants.
I don't get the "model franchise" bit in a salary cap world. It won't be long before perennial bottom dwellers will be considered the "model franchise" (nearly already are, Chicago). Whoever lucks out on generational talent in the draft will be the "model franchise" until they sink and the next bottom feeding team lucks out and rises up with their generational talent.

"Tanking for picks" is the new NHL. It's sickening.

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