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Article: It's time for Kenny to go

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Old
07-15-2017, 09:53 PM
  #26
TheMoreYouKnow
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Laughing at guys talking about hindsight..a number of posters here predicted that we'd be where we are now 5-7 years ago and the same people who talk about the benefit of hindsight now trashed them then..

Guys, just because you couldn't see it coming, doesn't mean no-one else could.

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07-15-2017, 10:09 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMoreYouKnow View Post
Laughing at guys talking about hindsight..a number of posters here predicted that we'd be where we are now 5-7 years ago and the same people who talk about the benefit of hindsight now trashed them then..

Guys, just because you couldn't see it coming, doesn't mean no-one else could.
Yep, the board goes back 100 pages, you can see people from 5 years ago talking about it. I changed my tune around 2013 and have gotten increasingly pessimistic and for good reason.

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07-15-2017, 10:18 PM
  #28
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It is time for him to go. He has done a great job during his years as our gm. But the times change, the job changes, he couldn't adapt. Take on a new roll, still be a red wings legend.

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07-15-2017, 11:02 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by TheMoreYouKnow View Post
Laughing at guys talking about hindsight..a number of posters here predicted that we'd be where we are now 5-7 years ago and the same people who talk about the benefit of hindsight now trashed them then..

Guys, just because you couldn't see it coming, doesn't mean no-one else could.
Good point, and not just a number of posters. It was quite a few of us if this thread from 2014 is any indication. Makes for an interesting read in 2017.

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1618001

Quote:
Originally Posted by martinez View Post
It is time for him to go. He has done a great job during his years as our gm. But the times change, the job changes, he couldn't adapt. Take on a new roll, still be a red wings legend.
And that's exactly how I feel about it. There's still a soft spot for him because of all the great years, it's just time now. It's not only aggravating but also sad to see him continue because he just tarnishes his legacy more and more with every year he clings on.

Really, really hoping he moves on to a different role when his contract's up at the end of this season.

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07-15-2017, 11:55 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by The Zermanator View Post
Good point, and not just a number of posters. It was quite a few of us if this thread from 2014 is any indication. Makes for an interesting read in 2017.

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1618001



And that's exactly how I feel about it. There's still a soft spot for him because of all the great years, it's just time now. It's not only aggravating but also sad to see him continue because he just tarnishes his legacy more and more with every year he clings on.

Really, really hoping he moves on to a different role when his contract's up at the end of this season.
I didn't spend much time here over the years, but I am very well known over at MLive.

There are about 4-5 Holland defenders left, including that hack Savage. Everyone else seems to be way over the fence on Holland.

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Old
07-16-2017, 03:03 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMoreYouKnow View Post
Laughing at guys talking about hindsight..a number of posters here predicted that we'd be where we are now 5-7 years ago and the same people who talk about the benefit of hindsight now trashed them then..

Guys, just because you couldn't see it coming, doesn't mean no-one else could.
100% of people predicted a decline, doesn't mean many GMs could have done or would have done something significantly different on the tail-end of our core guy's careers. Anyone can sit on a message board right now and say Chicago, Pittsburgh, Washington etc are going to decline and will need to rebuild in 5-10 years. It doesn't make you a brilliant hockey mind.
The hindsight isn't about not being able to see we were heading for a rebuild, it's about pretending we knew the team wouldn't get past the 2nd round after 09. That's an attractive narrative for people who want to make it seem like Holland has been doing a bad job for a decade, but it's all based on hindsight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StargateSG1 View Post
The guy you are so desperately trying to find excuses for build this:

http://www.thehockeynews.com/news/ar...to-win-the-cup

No star power in top 4 tiers and ranked 29th overall.

I know, I know, "trades are hard" and stuff
How many of the teams with more "star power" have made the playoffs 25 of the last 26 years? How many have made it 10 of the last 11? 5 of the last 6? How many top 10 picks have those other teams had in the last 10-15 years? How many of them have 4 cups in the last 20 years?

Success comes at cost. Just because we're paying that price now instead of after Yzerman/Shanny/Feds/etc declined and left doesn't mean Kenny's done somehow worse than other GMs because our team isn't loaded with stars right now. It just means we're right now in the process of doing what every single team in the league apart from us have been doing at various points in the last 2 decades; acquiring picks, drafting high, rebuilding the way it actually works 99% of the time. That other 1%? That's us, when we seamlessly transitioned from one group of HoFers to another. This time it isn't seamless.


Last edited by Pavels Dog: 07-16-2017 at 03:21 AM.
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Old
07-16-2017, 09:21 AM
  #32
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Article is everything that's been said at nauseam by almost every insider/pundit/analyst for the last number of years.

Nothing really new here

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Old
07-16-2017, 10:25 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by martinez View Post
It is time for him to go. He has done a great job during his years as our gm. But the times change, the job changes, he couldn't adapt. Take on a new roll, still be a red wings legend.
Pretty much all that needs to be said. Really don't understand why some feel the need to try and belittle his accomplishments. He's had an amazing run and had a lot of success. But it's time to move on, and it's time to bring in an external candidate who can break up the monotony in the front office.

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Old
07-16-2017, 10:51 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Pavels Dog View Post
100% of people predicted a decline, doesn't mean many GMs could have done or would have done something significantly different on the tail-end of our core guy's careers. Anyone can sit on a message board right now and say Chicago, Pittsburgh, Washington etc are going to decline and will need to rebuild in 5-10 years. It doesn't make you a brilliant hockey mind.
The hindsight isn't about not being able to see we were heading for a rebuild, it's about pretending we knew the team wouldn't get past the 2nd round after 09. That's an attractive narrative for people who want to make it seem like Holland has been doing a bad job for a decade, but it's all based on hindsight.
You can believe me or you can't, but I knew we were pretty much done as a great team in game 3 or so of the 09 Finals. Even as we built up a 3-1 lead in that series, it just felt like it was a 'last hurrah' type deal. The Pens were faster, more aggressive and it felt like we were in that series with a lot of smoke and mirrors. In that series, you could tell who was the team on the way out and the team on the way in.

The forum only goes back to late 2012 but my posts since well before then were saying that Holland either needs to go big (i.e. acquire high-end talent to replace the leaving old guard whatever the cost) or rebuild. In those days, Holland didn't go for broke i.e. he didn't want to overpay on FAs, didn't want to give up assets in trades. But he also didn't trade what viable and desirable assets we still had away for futures. Instead we settled in as an 'OK team'.

And I had criticized Holland for that way, way back. I wasn't the only one, though it was a very select group back then.

There were a number of reasons I felt that way. The main one was that our top 4 D-men were about to be decimated. Lidstrom and Rafalski were on the way out. Chelios was gone. Kronwall was never convincing as a high-end #1.

At forward, our main guys were 30+ and injuries were a factor. I remember the arguments about adding Hossa and how we needed that extra scoring winger. We never got that extra scoring winger. Instead we relied on Franzen who outside that one playoff run never was a high-end player. D and Z were getting older. It didn't take a genius to figure that unless something drastic happened with a rapidly worsening D and ageing forwards, we'd get worse on a reliable curve.

Holland didn't do anything drastic, he made window-dressing moves to prolong the streak. That infuriated me even then. Because it wasn't even 'let's go for broke and make a run while we can'. It wasn't even 'let's try to make the most of what we still have of Z's and D's primes'. It was 'ho hum I don't wanna get caught out, we just need an OK team'. If Holland wasn't bold enough to go for broke, we should have started the rebuild 5 years ago, not now.

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Old
07-16-2017, 11:46 AM
  #35
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Ehh I thought the Nashville series was the nail in the coffin. A healthy Datsyuk would have been the difference against Pittsburgh.

That Nashville series was absolutely brutal. The Preds abused the Wings and Datsyuk was the only player that was capable of generating any offense. Unfortunately the lockout shortened season that followed gave people false hope with that 48 game regular season.

Still anyone that implies my prediction benefitted from hindsight is just too stubborn to admit they weren't being objective when evaluating the roster from 2011 to the present.

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Old
07-16-2017, 12:07 PM
  #36
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Honestly I held out hope for this team much longer than some of the other tank crowd. It took until XO and Sproul were unconvincing in GR in 2014 before I gave up and decided we needed to rebuild. I
Up to that point I thought that set of D prospects was able to slide into the NHL and be our new D- core. On top of that I believed that our forward drafting was strong enough that we'd be able to address our coming needs at center. I remember arguing on here with those who figured it out sooner. Sorry about that, you guys were right.

As soon as I realized none of Sproul, XO, Marchenko, Almqvist etc. were ever going to be a #1/2 D then it was very obvious this team had no hope of contending again without a true rebuild. I'll give myself a break for not realizing it sooner as I was really high on those prospects. Holland should have been more informed than me and realized it sooner than I did. It's his job and I'm a physics student who watches hockey for enjoyment. He should have known that XO and company were tier 2 prospects and not our future. Instead I knew this team was done 3 years ago and Holland is still in denial...that's incredibly unacceptable. Many of the people on here knew we were done 5-8 years ago. Holland is so far behind the curve it's astonishing. If any random schmuck were to dedicate nearly as much time to hockey as Holland is forced to, with the resources he has, and do this poorly I'd declare that person to be an absolute moron. Holland has been training for this job/doing it for decades and is still this bad...absolute moron doesn't cut it.

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07-16-2017, 12:57 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavels Dog View Post
100% of people predicted a decline, doesn't mean many GMs could have done or would have done something significantly different on the tail-end of our core guy's careers. Anyone can sit on a message board right now and say Chicago, Pittsburgh, Washington etc are going to decline and will need to rebuild in 5-10 years. It doesn't make you a brilliant hockey mind.
The hindsight isn't about not being able to see we were heading for a rebuild, it's about pretending we knew the team wouldn't get past the 2nd round after 09. That's an attractive narrative for people who want to make it seem like Holland has been doing a bad job for a decade, but it's all based on hindsight.


How many of the teams with more "star power" have made the playoffs 25 of the last 26 years? How many have made it 10 of the last 11? 5 of the last 6? How many top 10 picks have those other teams had in the last 10-15 years? How many of them have 4 cups in the last 20 years?

Success comes at cost. Just because we're paying that price now instead of after Yzerman/Shanny/Feds/etc declined and left doesn't mean Kenny's done somehow worse than other GMs because our team isn't loaded with stars right now. It just means we're right now in the process of doing what every single team in the league apart from us have been doing at various points in the last 2 decades; acquiring picks, drafting high, rebuilding the way it actually works 99% of the time. That other 1%? That's us, when we seamlessly transitioned from one group of HoFers to another. This time it isn't seamless.
Sorry, but that's not entirely true. I knew they were done - and said as much - after they lost to Nashville in the first round in 2012, had no backup plan to losing out on Suter, and then went the route of keeping the Dan Clearys of the world on the roster for years longer than any metric of production would warrant.

I was confident enough in my belief that I cut the cord on cable, because (at least, to me) it was a neon sign that the organization was neither a contender nor a rebuilder. Which (again, to me) meant that they were irrelevant until they managed to embrace one of those two previous categories.

And here they are, still trying to put one foot in each camp...and doing a mediocre job at both efforts.

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Old
07-16-2017, 01:06 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
Yep, the board goes back 100 pages, you can see people from 5 years ago talking about it. I changed my tune around 2013 and have gotten increasingly pessimistic and for good reason.
Yeah, the writing has been on the wall for half a decade, compounded with bandaid UFA signings, terrible re-signings, the lack of emphasis of drafting defensemen outside of 2011, mostly mediocre drafts, desperate deadline trades, and lack of actual meaningful trades.

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Old
07-16-2017, 02:15 PM
  #39
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The hindsight argument has is a poor one. We have a proud record of predictive pessimism going back at least to 2012.

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07-16-2017, 02:33 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by jkutswings View Post
Sorry, but that's not entirely true. I knew they were done - and said as much - after they lost to Nashville in the first round in 2012
And then the next year they beat a top seed in round 1 and were by far the closest team to take out Chicago on the way to their Cup. That's how "done" they were. A goal away from the conference finals.

Regardless, what could they have done? Dats/Z/Kronner were still far too good to tank with. Nyquist/Tatar/Jurco/Sheahan came up and carried the team when Dats/Z missed half a season each. Then we have a 100 point season, not exactly a sign the team is garbage.

What should Holland have done? Team would have gotten top 10 picks in 12-13 and 13-14 if not for the amazing core and good young prospects. Holland did very few aggressive "keep us in the playoffs" type moves. We'd have another top 10 pick last year if Mrazek and Larkin didn't do so great. Maybe Holland should just stop drafting so well?

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07-16-2017, 03:37 PM
  #41
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I can understand pushing off a re-build with a 20+ year playoff streak intact and two veterans in the twilight of their career that want to win (Dats and Z).

But right now there is no excuse not to aggressively re-build. Do I buy into this thinking that Holland is lying when he says his goal is to make the playoffs and the secret plan is he's all in on re-building? No, I don't.

I also don't see anything being any different if Kris Draper were running things, I doubt very much he would be a guy who is OK with losing.

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07-16-2017, 03:50 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Pavels Dog View Post
And then the next year they beat a top seed in round 1 and were by far the closest team to take out Chicago on the way to their Cup. That's how "done" they were. A goal away from the conference finals.

Regardless, what could they have done? Dats/Z/Kronner were still far too good to tank with. Nyquist/Tatar/Jurco/Sheahan came up and carried the team when Dats/Z missed half a season each. Then we have a 100 point season, not exactly a sign the team is garbage.

What should Holland have done? Team would have gotten top 10 picks in 12-13 and 13-14 if not for the amazing core and good young prospects. Holland did very few aggressive "keep us in the playoffs" type moves. We'd have another top 10 pick last year if Mrazek and Larkin didn't do so great. Maybe Holland should just stop drafting so well?
I think you are delusional if you think that Holland drafts well.
He hasn't drafted well in 20 years.
Not a single Top 2 D has been drafted in 20 years.
Now compare how Nashville drafts in later rounds.

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07-16-2017, 04:37 PM
  #43
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Just to be clear

The idea that Detroit pushing Chicago to game seven as evidence no rebuild or at the very least a clearer long term directional path wasnt needed, remember Toronto pushed the one year removed cup champ Boston Bruins to game 7 as well.

Had they won would anyone cite that as evidence the leafs were a good team with a long and bright future with no need to do what they did?


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07-16-2017, 04:42 PM
  #44
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Can we please stop pointlessly arguing over "how we felt" in 2009/2010/2011.

its infuriating to know many of you posters were around at the time and are so GD spoiled, you forget we were good at this point.

I am not arguing for not firing holland
I am not defending holland
Our team sucks now
we need to be rebuilding, we all agree on this.

But If we cant agree on FACts of the past, as in "where we finished out of 30 teams" and if that counts as "good" or "crap"

then i will start posting things like this to start reverse trolling:

"Detroit should have rebuilt in 2009 after winning two stanley cups in a row... knowing full well they would never win another cup"

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07-16-2017, 05:05 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BinCookin View Post
Can we please stop pointlessly arguing over "how we felt" in 2009/2010/2011.

its infuriating to know many of you posters were around at the time and are so GD spoiled, you forget we were good at this point.

I am not arguing for not firing holland
I am not defending holland
Our team sucks now
we need to be rebuilding, we all agree on this.

But If we cant agree on FACts of the past, as in "where we finished out of 30 teams" and if that counts as "good" or "crap"

then i will start posting things like this to start reverse trolling:

"Detroit should have rebuilt in 2009 after winning two stanley cups in a row... knowing full well they would never win another cup"
I am resisting the urge, but I do have

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07-16-2017, 06:47 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Pavels Dog View Post
And then the next year they beat a top seed in round 1 and were by far the closest team to take out Chicago on the way to their Cup. That's how "done" they were. A goal away from the conference finals.
In 2001, Detroit was upset by LA in the first round. The Kings then pushed Colorado to 7 games, and the Avs went on to win the Cup. That didn't make LA a contender yet, as evidenced by their 1st round loss the following year, followed by 6 straight years of missing the playoffs. It took them another decade, plus about every avenue possible, to rebuild into a champion (Kopitar and Doughty via high picks, Quick as a 3rd rounder, and Carter via trade).

The point is that flukes happen all the time. Winning 6-7 playoff games doesn't mean you're a good team.


Quote:
Regardless, what could they have done? Dats/Z/Kronner were still far too good to tank with. Nyquist/Tatar/Jurco/Sheahan came up and carried the team when Dats/Z missed half a season each. Then we have a 100 point season, not exactly a sign the team is garbage.

What should Holland have done? Team would have gotten top 10 picks in 12-13 and 13-14 if not for the amazing core and good young prospects. Holland did very few aggressive "keep us in the playoffs" type moves. We'd have another top 10 pick last year if Mrazek and Larkin didn't do so great. Maybe Holland should just stop drafting so well?
Scorched Earth would've been to trade Datsyuk.

A much more moderate plan would've been to stop hoarding all their middle six wingers, and overpay to trade for one or more decent defensemen. It might've helped; it might've blown up in their faces. But the team positively needed a shake up, and they did just the opposite, being as conservative as possible.

They needed to pick a darn direction and go with it. And they still do. And the nonsense has no hope of going away until they do.

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07-16-2017, 11:11 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by BinCookin View Post
Can we please stop pointlessly arguing over "how we felt" in 2009/2010/2011.

its infuriating to know many of you posters were around at the time and are so GD spoiled, you forget we were good at this point.

I am not arguing for not firing holland
I am not defending holland
Our team sucks now
we need to be rebuilding, we all agree on this.

But If we cant agree on FACts of the past, as in "where we finished out of 30 teams" and if that counts as "good" or "crap"

then i will start posting things like this to start reverse trolling:

"Detroit should have rebuilt in 2009 after winning two stanley cups in a row... knowing full well they would never win another cup"
Bin, mate, welcome to the eternal struggle.

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Old
07-16-2017, 11:53 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by jkutswings View Post
In 2001, Detroit was upset by LA in the first round. The Kings then pushed Colorado to 7 games, and the Avs went on to win the Cup. That didn't make LA a contender yet, as evidenced by their 1st round loss the following year, followed by 6 straight years of missing the playoffs. It took them another decade, plus about every avenue possible, to rebuild into a champion (Kopitar and Doughty via high picks, Quick as a 3rd rounder, and Carter via trade).

The point is that flukes happen all the time. Winning 6-7 playoff games doesn't mean you're a good team.



Scorched Earth would've been to trade Datsyuk.

A much more moderate plan would've been to stop hoarding all their middle six wingers, and overpay to trade for one or more decent defensemen. It might've helped; it might've blown up in their faces. But the team positively needed a shake up, and they did just the opposite, being as conservative as possible.

They needed to pick a darn direction and go with it. And they still do. And the nonsense has no hope of going away until they do.

I wanted Datsyuk traded before his contract ran out. I wanted Mrazek signed and Howard let go before his current contract. Same with Kronwall.

At those points in their careers, they had value due to either less term or outright talent.

The writing has been on the wall for years.

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07-17-2017, 02:13 AM
  #49
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Originally Posted by jkutswings View Post
In 2001, Detroit was upset by LA in the first round. The Kings then pushed Colorado to 7 games, and the Avs went on to win the Cup. That didn't make LA a contender yet, as evidenced by their 1st round loss the following year, followed by 6 straight years of missing the playoffs. It took them another decade, plus about every avenue possible, to rebuild into a champion (Kopitar and Doughty via high picks, Quick as a 3rd rounder, and Carter via trade).

The point is that flukes happen all the time. Winning 6-7 playoff games doesn't mean you're a good team.
Different contexts. LA did that as a team who had missed the playoffs 5 of the previous 6 years. Kinda same story as Leafs only playoff appearance. In the context of talking about when the Wings were "done", when Holland should have given up any hope of a playoff run and shifted 100% to the future, a playoffs like '13 is a strong argument for Holland being right not to pull the plug too early.

We had a strong core of proven cup winners. We weren't some team that had a fluke season after 5+ years of being awful. 2013 didn't make us contenders, but it showed the team still had some juice and that going on a run wasn't just a pipe dream. Holland was right not to go all-in for Cups during those years, but I disagree with any notion that the team was just dead in the water and never had a chance post-09.

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Old
07-17-2017, 07:44 AM
  #50
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I would imagine any team in the NHL would be in the same or worse position that Detroit is in given their long success.

And the General Manager bashing isn't exclusive for Red Wings fans, nearly all other fan bases bash their GM for whatever various reasons. It's becoming a common theme with "fans" around the league. Millennials or otherwise.

I don't follow other sports, so I don't know if this is unique to NHL or not.

At the end of the day, ownership writes the checks and is the one pulling the strings. The GM is trying to juggle all the nuisances.

If Holland leaves today, expect more of the same tomorrow (and probably worse). There is no magic button to fix the team when you have an ownership with an agenda.

EDIT: And I doubt Illitch's want to fire Ken Holland, he's the only insulation between fans focusing their displeasure towards the family. If Kenny leaves, more of the same ensues... results in fans starting to finally figure out what the true culprit is instead of this "I saw the writing on the wall since 2010", to "dang I was wrong the entire time...I was bamboozled!".

The KH bashing has become a full-on witch hunt focusing on the wrong "villain". It's like ownership is successfully hiding in plain sight.


Last edited by Dotter: 07-17-2017 at 07:56 AM.
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