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Article: It's time for Kenny to go

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Old
07-17-2017, 08:39 AM
  #51
Frk It
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dotter View Post
I would imagine any team in the NHL would be in the same or worse position that Detroit is in given their long success.

And the General Manager bashing isn't exclusive for Red Wings fans, nearly all other fan bases bash their GM for whatever various reasons. It's becoming a common theme with "fans" around the league. Millennials or otherwise.

I don't follow other sports, so I don't know if this is unique to NHL or not.

At the end of the day, ownership writes the checks and is the one pulling the strings. The GM is trying to juggle all the nuisances.

If Holland leaves today, expect more of the same tomorrow (and probably worse). There is no magic button to fix the team when you have an ownership with an agenda.

EDIT: And I doubt Illitch's want to fire Ken Holland, he's the only insulation between fans focusing their displeasure towards the family. If Kenny leaves, more of the same ensues... results in fans starting to finally figure out what the true culprit is instead of this "I saw the writing on the wall since 2010", to "dang I was wrong the entire time...I was bamboozled!".

The KH bashing has become a full-on witch hunt focusing on the wrong "villain". It's like ownership is successfully hiding in plain sight.
You don't think maybe Holland's pride factors into this at all? I think he is the one driving this "preserving winning culture" talk and the one with a legacy to preserve, I'm not sure even if ownership said we want top 5 picks that Holland would buy into that.

Plus ownership isn't going to have a choice soon, when they realize that playoffs is a silly goal for this non-playoff team they are going to have to re-adjust their plan.

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07-17-2017, 08:41 AM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frk It View Post
You don't think maybe Holland's pride factors into this at all? I think he is the one driving this "preserving winning culture" talk and the one with a legacy to preserve, I'm not sure even if ownership said we want top 5 picks that Holland would buy into that.

Plus ownership isn't going to have a choice soon, when they realize that playoffs is a silly goal for this non-playoff team they are going to have to re-adjust their plan.
Yeah, I'm not going to give Holland or any other previous or future GM a pass for mismanaging the team and ignoring signs of a needed [proper] rebuild just because other GM's all make the same mistake.

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07-17-2017, 08:42 AM
  #53
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Kenny has had his day as this GM but I would like a fresh approach and not just the same old thing.

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07-17-2017, 08:44 AM
  #54
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I had no idea the illitch's were the only professional sport franchises owners in the world who care about making money

Shocking revelation

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07-17-2017, 09:13 AM
  #55
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Would be easier to sympathize with the "Holland Out!" camp if the people on that side of the argument stopped pretending that he is the worst GM of all time and all that garbage. There needs to be respect for what he's accomplished and the multiple cup winners he's helped build.

Additionally, it's long past time to stop pretending that Yzerman is the GOAT GM and the only way forward. He's literally the definition of a painfully average GM if you take 5 seconds to forget about his playing career for us.

I think if those two criteria are satisfied, theres a perfectly valid argument for wanting to move on from Holland. He's not the best GM anymore, and someone who was brought up in the cap era should probably take over. I'd be fine with Draper getting a shot tbh.

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07-17-2017, 09:21 AM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by France Nielsen View Post
I no longer think it would mean much for Kenny to go after reading Bill Roose's AMA on reddit the other day. If Kenny goes, we'll get Draper, and Chris Ilitch will make Draper do the same stuff to make the playoffs and make his money.

I mean, sure, we avoid a couple of bad contracts to grinders I suppose, but it won't be rebuild time. Chris Ilitch doesn't care enough about the team to let them rebuild.

Here's the link: https://www.reddit.com/r/DetroitRedW...er_bill_roose/
Thanks for the link, much appreciated! It sounds like they are going to go the Toronto Maple Leafs route of basically expecting their fans to support a mediocre product. That's clearly not the case in Toronto right now but it had been for decades.

That's surprising given the Wings just built a new arena but whatever. From my standpoint I'll continue to watch and support the team, however I do wonder how much support will drop off when they are consistently one of the bottom 10 teams in the league and perhaps luck into a playoff spot now and then like they did in Blashill's first season. People talk so much about the streak, however we are lucky we don't currently have a two year streak of missing the playoffs.

I've never called for Holland to be fired, I am simply looking forward to him retiring. He's had a great career it's just that it's time to move on and see what's behind door #2. That AMA suggests the Wings will go with an internal candidate which is complete lunacy as there is no one internally who has the experience necessary, other than being able to talk about the glory days with a sufficient amount of pride.

I guess it makes sense with both Yzerman and Nill heading out on their own. The decision could have been made around the time Nill finally accepted a GM job.

I'm not fully ready to say I expect a long Maple Laffs/Dead Wings era, however I do think it's inevitable if we go with an internal candidate who will likely continue down the same path we've tread for the past half decade.

Hey, hey Hockeytown!

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07-17-2017, 09:29 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by martinez View Post
It is time for him to go. He has done a great job during his years as our gm. But the times change, the job changes, he couldn't adapt. Take on a new roll, still be a red wings legend.
How many NHL GMs deserve to be fired, as of today?

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07-17-2017, 09:32 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
Yeah, I'm not going to give Holland or any other previous or future GM a pass for mismanaging the team and ignoring signs of a needed [proper] rebuild just because other GM's all make the same mistake.
If most other GM's make the 'mistake' of not burning their team to the ground as soon as it looks like their window might be closing, does it perhaps begin to enter your thoughts there are reasons for a reluctance to do so beyond that decision being a 'mistake'?

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07-17-2017, 09:44 AM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WolvesAndWings View Post
Would be easier to sympathize with the "Holland Out!" camp if the people on that side of the argument stopped pretending that he is the worst GM of all time and all that garbage. There needs to be respect for what he's accomplished and the multiple cup winners he's helped build.
I can see how it might appear that way to someone passing by, but the majority of us who are ready to move on from Holland here spent years defending him. We said, "Wait and see. He deserves our trust. This is the off-season he makes his move." And after disappointment after disappointment, you run out of excuses. You see other general managers making the calls you wish your guy did. The team keeps falling in the standings and there's a shallow prospect pool to save it and no cap money left.

At best Holland is average. Is that acceptable for the Red Wings? I don't think so. I think once you fall into mediocrity you're begging to be replaced in pro sports. Mediocrity doesn't win in the playoffs.

Beyond that, I'm tired of Holland's rhetoric treating fans like idiots. He's the GM to one of the most informed fan bases in all of hockey. Yet we get canned answers and insulting cliches about why rebuilding is impossible and winning is hard in this league. It's all platitudes. And when he does appear to say something genuine it's usually snark overdrive.

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07-17-2017, 09:56 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WolvesAndWings View Post
Would be easier to sympathize with the "Holland Out!" camp if the people on that side of the argument stopped pretending that he is the worst GM of all time and all that garbage. There needs to be respect for what he's accomplished and the multiple cup winners he's helped build.

Additionally, it's long past time to stop pretending that Yzerman is the GOAT GM and the only way forward. He's literally the definition of a painfully average GM if you take 5 seconds to forget about his playing career for us.

I think if those two criteria are satisfied, theres a perfectly valid argument for wanting to move on from Holland. He's not the best GM anymore, and someone who was brought up in the cap era should probably take over. I'd be fine with Draper getting a shot tbh.
There is literally no evidence to support that Draper would do things different than Holland.

Yzerman has shown an ability to at least make trades to improve his team.

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07-17-2017, 10:16 AM
  #61
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I dont even know why he has been allowed to continue for so long... He should have been "promoted" so that Nill could take over.

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07-17-2017, 10:34 AM
  #62
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I think a lot of the problem with Holland has been the inability to realize you need to go the internal development route and not getting better scouts in place to help that direction succeed.

we lost a lot of people when Yzerman and Nill left, we replace them with (IMO) inferior personnel. Until that is addressed, we have to pray they get something right.

We just cannot afford to not find home runs with this draft and "retool" approach. I think a main problem with Kenny is that he replied too heavily on Nill and once Nill left, he got caught with his pants down.

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07-17-2017, 10:37 AM
  #63
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Just remember - there's no point in firing anyone if you dont have a better replacement.

Botterill. Shero a few years ago. Those two would have been my choices. Now? Poach one of Dubas or Hunter from Toronto? BrisBoise from tampa? I just hope it isnt Ryan Martin, and ill be in the minority on this if need be.. i just dont think he's worth a ****. You never hear his name in anything vs what we heard about Nill and others on cup teams (or very good teams).

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07-17-2017, 10:56 AM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Go Wings View Post
There is literally no evidence to support that Draper would do things different than Holland.

Yzerman has shown an ability to at least make trades to improve his team.

Yzerman would've been fired twice with his Tampa track record if he was GM of a 'bigger' team (ie Detroit, Pittsburgh, Chicago, Toronto, Montreal, LA, NYR, Philly, etc).

First in either 2011-12 after Tampa were arguably the pre-season cup favourites and missed the playoffs in arguably the worst division, or in 2012-13 when they got even worse.

Second at the end of this season, where they were once again arguably pre-season cup favourites, or at least Eastern Conference favourites and missed the playoffs in arguably the worst division.

I mean, fine, argue that Yzerman is a better GM right now than Holland if you want, but replacing mediocre with a different kind of mediocre is just silly.

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07-17-2017, 11:04 AM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WolvesAndWings View Post
Yzerman would've been fired twice with his Tampa track record if he was GM of a 'bigger' team (ie Detroit, Pittsburgh, Chicago, Toronto, Montreal, LA, NYR, Philly, etc).

First in either 2011-12 after Tampa were arguably the pre-season cup favourites and missed the playoffs in arguably the worst division, or in 2012-13 when they got even worse.

Second at the end of this season, where they were once again arguably pre-season cup favourites, or at least Eastern Conference favourites and missed the playoffs in arguably the worst division.

I mean, fine, argue that Yzerman is a better GM right now than Holland if you want, but replacing mediocre with a different kind of mediocre is just silly.
There should be no arguing about it at all

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07-17-2017, 11:08 AM
  #66
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If the roster is considered a cup favorite and they don't make the playoffs, doesn't that just mean that the media interpretation of the strength of the roster was way off, and really doesn't reflect the GM's ability?

If you wanted to argue Yzerman getting fired a season after making the conference finals, then you should argue that he didn't improve the team after getting that far. And give a legit reason why Yzerman should have been fired just for missing the playoffs with a roster that was still growing.

As far as this last season, I don't know how much you put on Yzerman for the team's inability to perform. He put out a roster that by all accounts was good enough to contend for the division. They just didn't play up to their own potential at all.

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07-17-2017, 11:12 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
How many NHL GMs deserve to be fired, as of today?
Probably several, but I hope you're not using the same criteria for every team in the league.

For example, five years of noticeable decline, while spending to the cap, and collecting bad contracts, in a market formerly known as highly successful and attractive to free agents...is not the same as five years of mediocre results under an internally imposed salary ceiling, in an expansion market with low appeal to free agents.

There should be a certain degree of accountability either way, but both the destination and the road traveled are important factors.

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07-17-2017, 11:13 AM
  #68
WolvesAndWings
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Originally Posted by ArGarBarGar View Post
If the roster is considered a cup favorite and they don't make the playoffs, doesn't that just mean that the media interpretation of the strength of the roster was way off, and really doesn't reflect the GM's ability?

If you wanted to argue Yzerman getting fired a season after making the conference finals, then you should argue that he didn't improve the team after getting that far. And give a legit reason why Yzerman should have been fired just for missing the playoffs with a roster that was still growing.

As far as this last season, I don't know how much you put on Yzerman for the team's inability to perform. He put out a roster that by all accounts was good enough to contend for the division. They just didn't play up to their own potential at all.
You're forgetting that in both instances the team came off of Conference finals appearances, and Yzerman's moves intended to improve the squad/continue to contend, not to "re-tool"/take a step back.

This is terrible mismanagement, and if it happened on a team with a bigger fanbase, the outrage would be noticeable. Being a diehard fan of very popular teams in other sports where I've experienced this exact same thing more than once (Toronto Blue Jays in 2013 and Liverpool FC in 2010-11 and 2014-15), I can confirm there is no lower point for a fanbase's morale.

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07-17-2017, 11:29 AM
  #69
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Plus Tampa made the SCF recently. I'd be fine with conference finals, miss, SCF, miss. Vs first round exit, first round exit, first round exit, miss.

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07-17-2017, 11:33 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Howard35 View Post
Just remember - there's no point in firing anyone if you dont have a better replacement.

Botterill. Shero a few years ago. Those two would have been my choices. Now? Poach one of Dubas or Hunter from Toronto? BrisBoise from tampa? I just hope it isnt Ryan Martin, and ill be in the minority on this if need be.. i just dont think he's worth a ****. You never hear his name in anything vs what we heard about Nill and others on cup teams (or very good teams).
I think Hunter or Dubas would be good. I also don't want Martin, and not too optimistic about Draper either. Doubt Draper would be a good GM on a re-building team.

Other interesting options might be Flyers Assistant GM Chris Pryor, who was formerly Amateur Director of Scouting and was promoted after making the Provorov, Koncecny, Sanheim, Rubtsov, LaBerge picks. I like those selections a lot.

There's also Martin Madden, Amateur Director of Scouting for Anaheim who is responsible for their glut of good young defenseman picks... Vatanen, Fowler, Theodore, Montour, Lindholm, Mahura, Larsson etc.

Then there is obviously Paul Fenton, who has been responsible for Nashville's amazing success at drafting defenseman.

Outside of that, not sure. Ideally I would like someone with a track record of making bold trades or draft picks. Also wouldn't mind someone who is somewhat versed in analytics, but that's not a requirement per se.

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07-17-2017, 11:34 AM
  #71
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Plus Tampa made the SCF recently. I'd be fine with conference finals, miss, SCF, miss. Vs first round exit, first round exit, first round exit, miss.
From this point on, yeah, I'll drink to that.

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07-17-2017, 11:44 AM
  #72
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IMO, anyone who thought they should have rebuilt while the playoff streak was intact is just being unreasonable.

A bird in hand is worth 2 in the bush.

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07-17-2017, 12:17 PM
  #73
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Oh boy

The people who were pushing and pushing and pushing for the past 5 years for the "kids", like Tatar, Nyquist, Ouellet, Sproul, Jensen, Marchenko, Jarnkrok, Pulkinnen, Frk, Ferraro,
and Callahan to play, are claiming that they were proven right and smarter than the GM.

Yet we have those people playing now, and we are no good.


As per usual, nobody ever had an actual plan to build a winner other than "be bad"

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07-17-2017, 12:28 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Run the Jewels View Post
Thanks for the link, much appreciated! It sounds like they are going to go the Toronto Maple Leafs route of basically expecting their fans to support a mediocre product. That's clearly not the case in Toronto right now but it had been for decades.

That's surprising given the Wings just built a new arena but whatever. From my standpoint I'll continue to watch and support the team, however I do wonder how much support will drop off when they are consistently one of the bottom 10 teams in the league and perhaps luck into a playoff spot now and then like they did in Blashill's first season. People talk so much about the streak, however we are lucky we don't currently have a two year streak of missing the playoffs.

I've never called for Holland to be fired, I am simply looking forward to him retiring. He's had a great career it's just that it's time to move on and see what's behind door #2. That AMA suggests the Wings will go with an internal candidate which is complete lunacy as there is no one internally who has the experience necessary, other than being able to talk about the glory days with a sufficient amount of pride.

I guess it makes sense with both Yzerman and Nill heading out on their own. The decision could have been made around the time Nill finally accepted a GM job.

I'm not fully ready to say I expect a long Maple Laffs/Dead Wings era, however I do think it's inevitable if we go with an internal candidate who will likely continue down the same path we've tread for the past half decade.

Hey, hey Hockeytown!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
I dont even know why he has been allowed to continue for so long... He should have been "promoted" so that Nill could take over.

Nill? Really? That is a big NO THANK YOU!

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07-17-2017, 01:03 PM
  #75
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If someone missed this two weeks ago, please LISTEN:

https://soundcloud.com/officialredwi...-the-red-wings

There's kind of everything we need to know about Kenny's plans.

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