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Markets the NHL has left and the chances of a return?

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Old
07-16-2017, 02:22 AM
  #1
Fenway
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Markets the NHL has left and the chances of a return?

Since the initial expansion in 1967 the NHL had some 'failures' along the way and relocated franchises and in one case erased the franchise completely.

OAKLAND - An ill conceived franchise from day 1. The core hockey base in San Francisco was not going to cross the Bay Bridge to Oakland and even the opening of the BART subway in 1972 didn't help. The Oakland A's of the early 70's won three World Series in a row and still could not draw flies. The NBA Warriors wound up in Oakland simply because there was no other option. The Seals then moved to Cleveland in 1976.

The NHL did return to the Bay Area and settled in San Jose.

CLEVELAND - Peter Gammons in SI explains the Barons fiasco better than I could.

https://www.si.com/vault/1977/03/07/...nds-not-barren

Cleveland SHOULD have been a no brainer in the initial expansion of 1967 but the Blackhawks owned an arena in St. Louis they wanted to unload and hence the Blues were born. The NHL is not going back there.

KANSAS CITY - The city has the unique distinction of having both the NHL and NBA leave and neither league has expressed any interest in returning even with one of the nicest arenas in the US (Sprint Center). The KC Scouts were simply an awful team and could not gain any traction and wound up moving to

DENVER The Colorado Rockies had one magic moment when Don Cherry was coaching and they won in Boston in his return. The team somehow wound up in New Jersey. But Denver would get a second chance...

ATLANTA The Flames moved primarily because Calgary freaked out that Edmonton was admitted to the NHL and overpaid for the team. The Thrashers were toast when Time-Warner/AOL needed cash badly and the team was sold to owners that hated hockey. I know people criticize Bettman for not fighting for Atlanta but with the NBA Hawks controlling the arena there was nothing he could do and True North was waving...........

WINNIPEG The loonie of the mid 90's made it impossible for the Jets to stay but they of course got a second chance in 2011.

MINNESOTA Only the NHL could see a team move from a state that loves hockey to Texas.

HARTFORD - Of the 4 WHA teams that were absorbed into the NHL in 1979 only Edmonton was on strong footing and that was because of 99. Howard Baldwin has said if he had to do over again he would have moved the Whalers to Providence and not Hartford when the Bruins evicted them from Boston Garden. Hartford in the mid 70's did not have a hockey culture as the state was a hotbed for basketball but the insurance companies in Hartford gave the Whalers an economic stimulus package that he could not ignore.

The Whalers struggled in the NHL making the playoffs only 8 times in 18 seasons and only winning one playoff series. They also were hampered by being in the middle of Bruins/Rangers territory. But they also had developed a sizable following on cable as their games were beamed on Sportschannel ( now CSN-NE ) across all of New England including Boston. The Whalers allowed NESN full access to Connecticut and the Bruins allowed Whalers games to be seen in Boston.

NHL returning to Hartford? Not going to happen.

QUEBEC The saddest thing about the Nords moving to Denver was the fans never got a chance to say goodbye like heartbroken fans in Winnipeg and Hartford.

The Habs were hurting in 1995 as building the new Forum was far more expensive than thought and they also saw the Nords were getting bigger TV numbers than they were. The Habs however had enough influence with the 'National Assembly' to squash a new arena in Quebec.

Today Montreal will do everything they can behind closed doors to prevent Quebec from getting a team.

NHL returning to Quebec City? - Sadly I feel as though Quebec City is the francophone version of Hamilton - Not likely at this time.


Last edited by Fenway: 07-16-2017 at 11:12 AM.
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Old
07-16-2017, 07:04 AM
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Isles72
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I realize the reasons why the thrashers left but thats such a huge market you would think the nhl would want to get back into under the right scenerio again

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07-16-2017, 07:16 AM
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Don't forget Hamilton and a variety of other cities that got second looks (like the Twin Cities).

EDIT: oops,"post-67"

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07-16-2017, 09:01 AM
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Interesting comment about Montreal preventing Quebec from getting a team.

Do the Habs have a valid concern that Quebec would cost them fans/money?

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07-16-2017, 09:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonk View Post
Interesting comment about Montreal preventing Quebec from getting a team.

Do the Habs have a valid concern that Quebec would cost them fans/money?
Absolutely they do - the same way Toronto has a valid concern that a Hamilton team would cost them fans/money. But from another standpoint, it's a case of an entity wanting to maintain monopoly and market share. Neither the Leafs nor the Canadiens give a tinker's cuss for any of the many and varied fan arguments for expansion/relocation to Hamilton or Quebec City. Those two franchises want the game to expand its footprint so that they can eventually get higher revenues, but they want it to happen as far from their home market as possible to maintain their own financial positions.

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07-16-2017, 11:58 AM
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I realize the reasons why the thrashers left but thats such a huge market you would think the nhl would want to get back into under the right scenerio again
I suspect that right scenario will eventually surface at some point, but it won't be for quite a few years (maybe decades) until the scorched earth recovers and the bad taste leaves everybody's mouths.

Hope I'm wrong, but as I approach my 50th birthday this fall, I highly suspect I won't live long enough to see NHL Atlanta 3.0.

May the souls of the Atlanta $pirit Group forever rot in hell.

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07-16-2017, 12:52 PM
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tony d
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I still think the NHL will do right and get a team in Quebec City. Guaranteed market that wil l succeed. Conferences would be uneven but you can fix that by moving a team west.

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07-16-2017, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Bonk View Post
Interesting comment about Montreal preventing Quebec from getting a team.

Do the Habs have a valid concern that Quebec would cost them fans/money?
Would the NHL have ever had a team in Quebec City if not for the WHA having put a team there in order to have a team in competition with an NHL franchise?

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07-16-2017, 01:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tony d View Post
I still think the NHL will do right and get a team in Quebec City. Guaranteed market that wil l succeed. Conferences would be uneven but you can fix that by moving a team west.
UH, The West is unbalanced as it stands now, tony... none of the current 16 East teams would be interested in the above scenario, now that both Detroit/Columbus and Toronto served their time in said alignment, that's why the NHL wants balance the conference alignment before there's another call to realign the setup.

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07-16-2017, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by tony d View Post
I still think the NHL will do right and get a team in Quebec City. Guaranteed market that wil l succeed. Conferences would be uneven but you can fix that by moving a team west.
I'm pretty sure the only way that happens is if QC agrees to go West and stay there. No team in the EC is going to agree to move to the WC...so unless a EC team relocates there...and there are no more viable candidates...QC is dead.

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07-16-2017, 03:00 PM
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I can see the NHL going back to Cleveland, Hartford/Connecticut, Kansas City, Quebec, even Hamilton. Cleveland is having quite the boom with the Monsters. Hartford literally created hockey fans in Connecticut.

People said the Jets would never come back too.

Oakland and Atlanta are dead. Maybe the Seals will return in the AHL.


Last edited by Cacciaguida: 07-16-2017 at 03:08 PM.
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07-16-2017, 03:16 PM
  #12
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Originally Posted by Fenway View Post
Since the initial expansion in 1967 the NHL had some 'failures' along the way and relocated franchises and in one case erased the franchise completely.

OAKLAND - An ill conceived franchise from day 1. The core hockey base in San Francisco was not going to cross the Bay Bridge to Oakland and even the opening of the BART subway in 1972 didn't help. The Oakland A's of the early 70's won three World Series in a row and still could not draw flies. The NBA Warriors wound up in Oakland simply because there was no other option. The Seals then moved to Cleveland in 1976.

The NHL did return to the Bay Area and settled in San Jose.

CLEVELAND - Peter Gammons in SI explains the Barons fiasco better than I could.

https://www.si.com/vault/1977/03/07/...nds-not-barren

Cleveland SHOULD have been a no brainer in the initial expansion of 1967 but the Blackhawks owned an arena in St. Louis they wanted to unload and hence the Blues were born. The NHL is not going back there.

KANSAS CITY - The city has the unique distinction of having both the NHL and NBA leave and neither league has expressed any interest in returning even with one of the nicest arenas in the US (Sprint Center). The KC Scouts were simply an awful team and could not gain any traction and wound up moving to

DENVER The Colorado Rockies had one magic moment when Don Cherry was coaching and they won in Boston in his return. The team somehow wound up in New Jersey. But Denver would get a second chance...

ATLANTA The Flames moved primarily because Calgary freaked out that Edmonton was admitted to the NHL and overpaid for the team. The Thrashers were toast when Time-Warner/AOL needed cash badly and the team was sold to owners that hated hockey. I know people criticize Bettman for not fighting for Atlanta but with the NBA Hawks controlling the arena there was nothing he could do and True North was waving...........

WINNIPEG The loonie of the mid 90's made it impossible for the Jets to stay but they of course got a second chance in 2011.

MINNESOTA Only the NHL could see a team move from a state that loves hockey to Texas.

HARTFORD - Of the 4 WHA teams that were absorbed into the NHL in 1979 only Edmonton was on strong footing and that was because of 99. Howard Baldwin has said if he had to do over again he would have moved the Whalers to Providence and not Hartford when the Bruins evicted them from Boston Garden. Hartford in the mid 70's did not have a hockey culture as the state was a hotbed for basketball but the insurance companies in Hartford gave the Whalers an economic stimulus package that he could not ignore.

The Whalers struggled in the NHL making the playoffs only 8 times in 18 seasons and only winning one playoff series. They also were hampered by being in the middle of Bruins/Rangers territory. But they also had developed a sizable following on cable as their games were beamed on Sportschannel ( now CSN-NE ) across all of New England including Boston. The Whalers allowed NESN full access to Connecticut and the Bruins allowed Whalers games to be seen in Boston.

NHL returning to Hartford? Not going to happen.

QUEBEC The saddest thing about the Nords moving to Denver was the fans never got a chance to say goodbye like heartbroken fans in Winnipeg and Hartford.

The Habs were hurting in 1995 as building the new Forum was far more expensive than thought and they also saw the Nords were getting bigger TV numbers than they were. The Habs however had enough influence with the 'National Assembly' to squash a new arena in Quebec.

Today Montreal will do everything they can behind closed doors to prevent Quebec from getting a team.

NHL returning to Quebec City? - Sadly I feel as though Quebec City is the francophone version of Hamilton - Not likely at this time.
Not sure why you have to say it like that....

I think Texas/Dallas has done a great job adopting the Stars and hockey. I'd say the franchise has done better on and off the ice in Dallas than it ever did in Minnesota, and that's not a slight against Minnesota but the North Stars had their share of issues that the Wild never had.

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07-16-2017, 04:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cacciaguida View Post
I can see the NHL going back to Cleveland, Hartford/Connecticut, Kansas City, Quebec, even Hamilton. Cleveland is having quite the boom with the Monsters. Hartford literally created hockey fans in Connecticut.

People said the Jets would never come back too.

Oakland and Atlanta are dead. Maybe the Seals will return in the AHL.
are u going to own all of those franchises, too, Cacciaguida

Hartford is broke....

Cleveland has Gilbert who demanded that the Sharks leave when he entered that market, that's why Cleveland has hockey, as long as Gilbert doesn't default on QLA/AND THE Cavaliers.

Kansas City, how many times must that be discussed ad nauseum THEY DO NOT WANT HOCKEY, AND Independence serves that well now with Hunt's connection to KC... Chiefs, specifically

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07-16-2017, 10:12 PM
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Originally Posted by zetastrike View Post
Not sure why you have to say it like that....

I think Texas/Dallas has done a great job adopting the Stars and hockey. I'd say the franchise has done better on and off the ice in Dallas than it ever did in Minnesota, and that's not a slight against Minnesota but the North Stars had their share of issues that the Wild never had.
Indeed, zetastrike. That comes off as being an unnecessary slap in the face to a franchise that most people agree is well-supported and did it the right way. It screams of a hot take that I wouldn't expect.

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07-16-2017, 10:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Bonk View Post
Interesting comment about Montreal preventing Quebec from getting a team.

Do the Habs have a valid concern that Quebec would cost them fans/money?
They'd have the same concerns now as they did back in 1979. QC 2.0 would be infringing on their provinve-wide monopoly just the same as QC1.0 did.

In a 1979 vote, Montreal was the one team to vote against the addition of the Nords and other WHA teams. That resulted in a nationwide boycott of Molson products. That boycott lasted 2 weeks before Montreal changed their vote, allowing the WHA teams to join.


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07-16-2017, 10:37 PM
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Originally Posted by zetastrike View Post
Not sure why you have to say it like that....

I think Texas/Dallas has done a great job adopting the Stars and hockey. I'd say the franchise has done better on and off the ice in Dallas than it ever did in Minnesota, and that's not a slight against Minnesota but the North Stars had their share of issues that the Wild never had.
My intention was not to dismiss what the Stars have become in Dallas but to focus on the horrible ownership the North Stars had. Dallas has proven to be a good market and it is a shame that Houston doesn't have a team.

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07-16-2017, 11:02 PM
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They'd have the same concerns now as they did back in 1979. QC 2.0 would be infringing on their provinve-wide monopoly just the same as QC1.0 did.

In a 1979 vote, Montreal was the one team to vote against the addition of the Nords and other WHA teams. That resulted in a nationwide boycott of Molson products. That boycott lasted 2 weeks before Montreal changed their vote, allowing the WHA teams to join.
People forget how popular the Nords were across the entire province including many fans on the Island of Montreal. Many francophones embraced the team as they were 100% French - no English PA announcements, no English radio. Right now the Habs have the second richest local TV deal in the NHL with French RDS. We can assume Toronto is #1 but we don't know the numbers as the Leafs split their local coverage with both Bell and Rogers.

But Quebec City has one advantage in play as they have both an ownership group and an arena ready to go if the Coyotes can't find a viable option in Arizona. Seattle looks to be at least 4 years away from being ready, and Portland and Houston are not going to pay $500 million.

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07-16-2017, 11:18 PM
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Yes, Hartford is broke and CT is dealing with budget problems, but don't completely count us out.

Pictures of brand new steel piping of new ice sheet laid down @ the XL over the summer.

https://www.sportsblog.com/greaterha...y-ice-sheet-2/

Something a 1 billion $ Barclays Center refuses to address while Hartford without a team replaces the ice making system in a 45 yr old arena. Hoping some of the 250 million $ renovation gets in the next 2 yr budget. Governor wanted 125 million in this yrs budget, but reality we may get nothing or a reduced amount of 75 million.

https://www.google.com/amp/www.coura...story,amp.html

Just had a whaler alumni weekend at the awesome finally built Dunkin' Donuts Park over the weekend.
Went to 2 games over the wknd and whale gear was everywhere. Took 3 out of 4 including a sat walk
Off from front runner Trenton Thunder.


http://www.courant.com/sports/baseba...15-column.html

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07-16-2017, 11:35 PM
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My intention was not to dismiss what the Stars have become in Dallas but to focus on the horrible ownership the North Stars had. Dallas has proven to be a good market and it is a shame that Houston doesn't have a team.
That's definitely not how it comes across in your OP, Fenway. Your OP really makes it seem as if the NHL was nuts to allow a team to relocate from "a state that loves hockey" to Texas, with the clear implication being that Texas doesn't. If anything your response now comes across as backpeddling.

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07-16-2017, 11:38 PM
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It really sucks that Quebec City has a new building ready for a NHL team and likely they won't be getting one anytime soon, that is one AMAZING city!

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07-16-2017, 11:39 PM
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Originally Posted by garnetpalmetto View Post
That's definitely not how it comes across in your OP, Fenway. Your OP really makes it seem as if the NHL was nuts to allow a team to relocate from "a state that loves hockey" to Texas, with the clear implication being that Texas doesn't. If anything your response now comes across as backpeddling.
I wasn't in Texas at the time. Was it at all risky to move there in 93?

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07-16-2017, 11:50 PM
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I realize the reasons why the thrashers left but thats such a huge market you would think the nhl would want to get back into under the right scenerio again
Atlanta is a strange sports market. The Braves, just and an example, have "struggled" (maybe not the right word) for years with a sprawling community and not placing sports teams in optimal places even prior to their complete suckage rebuild.

There are also socioeconomic factors at work in Atlanta that make even a successful baseball franchise have to work its butt off to sell tickets, much less a hockey team.

Not saying it cannot be done, but it would take the right owner and the right team of management to sell the team.

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07-17-2017, 12:21 AM
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Atlanta is a huge market but on average, I think Atlanta residents just don't like sports that much.

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07-17-2017, 12:25 AM
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Originally Posted by garnetpalmetto View Post
That's definitely not how it comes across in your OP, Fenway. Your OP really makes it seem as if the NHL was nuts to allow a team to relocate from "a state that loves hockey" to Texas, with the clear implication being that Texas doesn't. If anything your response now comes across as backpeddling.
I'll stand by what I said. Bettman had just become commissioner when the North Stars moved and Norm Green did NOT need BoG approval to move.

The same thing happened in the NBA when Charlotte moved to New Orleans. How could basketball fail in North Carolina? Same reason..... bad ownership.


Quote:
March 11, 1993
DALLAS The Minnesota North Stars, unable to turn a profit in eight years and facing dwindling community support, will play in Dallas beginning next season.

North Stars owner Norman Green and the Dallas City Council announced the move Wednesday night, with the team to be renamed the Dallas Stars.

The team has played in Minnesota since entering the NHL in 1967.

"I'm very, very proud to be able to present to Dallas the National Hockey League," said Green, who gave North Stars jerseys to council members and Mayor Steve Bartlett.

The relocation, the first in the NHL since the Colorado Rockies became the New Jersey Devils 11 years ago, does not have to be approved by owners.
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1...s-city-council

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07-17-2017, 12:26 AM
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Quebec seems like the most likely of those at this time
Would the NHL really try Atlanta for a third time? It somewhat makes sense as a city but doesn't seem to click with hockey.

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