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Carey Price : Which is most likely to happen?

View Poll Results: Carey Price: Which scenarios are mostly to Happen?
Win a Cup in MTL 5 2.87%
Get his #31 retired by the Habs 12 6.90%
Gets Elected into the Hockey Hall of Fame 34 19.54%
All of the Above 25 14.37%
2 out of 3 64 36.78%
None of the Above 34 19.54%
Voters: 174. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
07-16-2017, 01:37 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by hockeyfanatic89 View Post
Montreal has never retired a # of a cup less player. They won't start now.

Furthermore, it's blasphemy for some to even dare suggest Price was a better Habs goalie then Roy.
That's because Montreal had never gone a decade without winning a Cup, so it was pretty much impossible to retire a player without winning it all. Is it Carey's fault he doesn't have the Punch line to help him? Or a Robinson-Lapointe pairing?

And there's nothing in my post indicating he'd be the greatest goalie in franchise history, just that he would hold a lot of records, by a mile. But nice try.

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07-16-2017, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by le_sean View Post
That's because Montreal had never gone a decade without winning a Cup, so it was pretty much impossible to retire a player without winning it all. Is it Carey's fault he doesn't have the Punch line to help him? Or a Robinson-Lapointe pairing?

And there's nothing in my post indicating he'd be the greatest goalie in franchise history, just that he would hold a lot of records, by a mile. But nice try.
There were others in the thread suggesting Price over Roy as Habs goalie. Didn't say it was you.

Bottom line is Price hasn't been a great playoff goalie. He's been outplayed by lesser tenders such as Bishop, Biron, Anderson.

He has no business getting his # retired unti he wins a cup. Otherwise, it's not happening.

If it means no future habs player gets his # retired for many years... so be it.

Nice try.

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07-16-2017, 01:47 PM
  #53
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HHOF probable, the other two, not likely.

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07-16-2017, 01:48 PM
  #54
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HHOF probable, the other two, not likely.
Agreed. Winning a cup is also the least likely of the three imo.

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Old
07-16-2017, 01:59 PM
  #55
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That's just asinine.

There have been two goalies in the history of the league that have 500+ wins. Carey just needs to average 26 wins a season for the remainder of his contract to reach that plateau, which should be easy.

If you don't think being Top 3 in career wins (NHL wide) and shattering nearly every goaltending record for the franchise is enough to get his jersey retired, then I don't know what to tell you.

I mean how can one justify players like Butch Bouchard and Bob Gainey having their numbers retired and not Price in those circumstances? And I know you'll answer "BUT CUPS!!111!!" but that's just a lazy argument.
The number of career wins is a result of factors such as precocity (or being rushed to the NHL by Bob Gainey), health, longevity, ability to play a high number of games every season and playing on teams that aren't bottom feeders. Whereas the criteria for retiring a Montreal canadiens jersey is excellence, especially playoffs excellence.

Also, you are counting your chickens before they hatch. Price has had a history of knee injuries, and he could also be run out of town halfway through his contract. Plus, I could be wrong, but I think the league is headed toward shared duties in net more and more as the quality of the backup goalies keep increasing in order to keep starters fresh for playoffs. Also, you're not taking into account some guys who are clearly on pace to challenge that #3 spot (Luongo, MAF, Quick, Lundqvist). And none of those names strikes me as legends, they're merely good players. Especially Luongo who is currently #5 all time. Is he the 5th best goalie of all time ? Not even a little bit. Based on their careers so far none of these guys would warrant a jersey retirement in Montreal IMO with the exception of Quick perhaps.

I just think number of career wins is a fairly insignificant criteria, especially if you consider that historically, some teams have played less games in a season. In some seasons, teams were only playing 70 games. And then if you consider the advent of SO wins... it gives even less relevance to this statistic.


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Old
07-16-2017, 02:14 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by One Less Louise View Post
The number of career wins is a result of factors such as precocity (or being rushed to the NHL by Bob Gainey), health, longevity, ability to play a high number of games every season and playing on teams that aren't bottom feeders. Whereas the criteria for retiring a Montreal canadiens jersey is excellence, especially playoffs excellence.

Also, you are counting your chickens before they hatch. Price has had a history of knee injuries, and he could also be run out of town halfway through his contract. Plus, I could be wrong, but I think the league is headed toward shared duties in net more and more as the quality of the backup goalies keep increasing in order to keep starters fresh for playoffs. Also, you're not taking into account some guys who are clearly on pace to challenge that #3 spot (Luongo, MAF, Quick, Lundqvist). And none of those names strikes me as legends, they're merely good players. Especially Luongo who is currently #5 all time. Is he the 5th best goalie of all time ? Not even a little bit. Based on their careers so far none of these guys would warrant a jersey retirement in Montreal IMO with the exception of Quick perhaps.

I just think number of career wins is a fairly insignificant criteria, especially if you consider that historically, some teams have played less games in a season. In some seasons, teams were only playing 70 games. And then if you consider the advent of SO wins... it gives even less relevance to this statistic.
Lol so it's a team game when it convenient for your argument but when it comes to everything Price, the 18 other skaters hold no responsibility.

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07-16-2017, 02:17 PM
  #57
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Lol so it's a team game when it convenient for your argument but when it comes to everything Price, the 18 other skaters hold no responsibility.
You were clearly only looking to find fault with my argument. It's a little sad really. Stay honest.

What I actually said is "playing on a non-bottom feeder". Basically any year where you play for the Buffalo, Colorado of the world you basically have little chance of winning so it's obviously one of a million factor.

And I never said the other 18 skaters have no responsibility. You're saying that because you're butt hurt about something.

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07-16-2017, 02:19 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by hockeyfanatic89 View Post
There were others in the thread suggesting Price over Roy as Habs goalie. Didn't say it was you.

Bottom line is Price hasn't been a great playoff goalie. He's been outplayed by lesser tenders such as Bishop, Biron, Anderson.

He has no business getting his # retired unti he wins a cup. Otherwise, it's not happening.

If it means no future habs player gets his # retired for many years... so be it.

Nice try.
I feel like getting "out played" by Biron is super unfair since he was 20 at the time

and I don't think he was totally outplayed by Bishop at all. The only one where he was outplayed was Anderson.

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Old
07-16-2017, 02:33 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by One Less Louise View Post
You were clearly only looking to find fault with my argument. It's a little sad really. Stay honest.

What I actually said is "playing on a non-bottom feeder". Basically any year where you play for the Buffalo, Colorado of the world you basically have little chance of winning so it's obviously one of a million factor.

And I never said the other 18 skaters have no responsibility. You're saying that because you're butt hurt about something.
Im not "butt hurt" about anything. You posting negative stuff about Price is just noticeable. The reality is he may as well be playing in Colorado or another bottom feeder because his chances at a cup aren't much better here in Montreal. We have an extremely flawed team make up and a corrupt management team. He's the best player on our team yet you seem to be upset at everything he does.

The contract is incredibly risky, but blame Bergevin for building a team that drops into the lottery without the best goalie in the league and not acknowledging that we should be rebuilding instead of trying to salvage the unsalvagable.

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07-16-2017, 02:33 PM
  #60
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I feel like getting "out played" by Biron is super unfair since he was 20 at the time

and I don't think he was totally outplayed by Bishop at all. The only one where he was outplayed was Anderson.
Why is it unfair ? Roy won a Smythe at 21, Ward won a Smythe at 21, Murray won the cup at 22 in his first playoffs. Brodeur went to the ECF at 22, then won at 23. Great players are often great early on. And some are claiming Price is great and deserves to have his jersey retired or will deserve it. So for the sake of this argument, it's certainly fair to bring that up.

But you're entirely right that expecting Price to carry that load at 20 was really unfair. Gainey was foolish. He thought that Price was a future great so he threw him in the fire expecting him to react like all greats before him. Obviously it wasn't fair at all to do that to him.

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07-16-2017, 02:33 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by 76ftw View Post
I feel like getting "out played" by Biron is super unfair since he was 20 at the time

and I don't think he was totally outplayed by Bishop at all. The only one where he was outplayed was Anderson.
Well when you put up an .896 and your opponent puts up an .940 while facing 20 less shots I think we can say that was being outplayed no?

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07-16-2017, 02:40 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by nhlfan9191 View Post
Im not "butt hurt" about anything. You posting negative stuff about Price is just noticeable. The reality is he may as well be playing in Colorado or another bottom feeder because his chances at a cup aren't much better here in Montreal. We have an extremely flawed team make up and a corrupt management team. He's the best player on our team yet you seem to be upset at everything he does.

The contract is incredibly risky, but blame Bergevin for building a team that drops into the lottery without the best goalie in the league and not acknowledging that we should be rebuilding instead of trying to salvage the unsalvagable.
I'm not posting negative stuff about Price, I'm posting facts. And they do not support the basis that Price should have his jersey retired. So you see that as negative stuff about Price. I get that people who love Price would see it that way but there is a reason why I'm not Price biggest fan and it's based on facts. Facts that I've outlined in this thread. He's overrated by most. And I see zero justifiable argument to put him in any all-time great lists. The only fact based argument I've seen so far is based on regular season wins.. which as I've outlined above.. unless you think someone like Luongo is a super amazing goalie who is one of the best of all time then that statistic may not be all that meaningful.

As for the contract, it's got huge backfiring potential but if Price is as great as people think, and if MB can support him better, he'll have a chance to prove it. We'll see. I certainly hope so. I would love for Price to prove me wrong. I'm just waiting for him to show greatness in the playoffs. That's what I want from him. I don't give a **** about his regular season wins and save %. If he shows up in the playoffs, I'll start worshiping at his altar.

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07-16-2017, 03:05 PM
  #63
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Price will get his number retired despite probably being unworthy. He will not win a Stanley Cup or a Conny Smythe in Montreal but i can see him maybe winning 1 more Vezina trophy.

I wouldn't retire Koivu number but if i have to choose between Price and Koivu, i would retire Koivu number. Price is not a special player but Koivu was special for Montreal.

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07-16-2017, 03:08 PM
  #64
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I'm not posting negative stuff about Price, I'm posting facts. And they do not support the basis that Price should have his jersey retired. So you see that as negative stuff about Price. I get that people who love Price would see it that way but there is a reason why I'm not Price biggest fan and it's based on facts. Facts that I've outlined in this thread. He's overrated by most. And I see zero justifiable argument to put him in any all-time great lists. The only fact based argument I've seen so far is based on regular season wins.. which as I've outlined above.. unless you think someone like Luongo is a super amazing goalie who is one of the best of all time then that statistic may not be all that meaningful.

As for the contract, it's got huge backfiring potential but if Price is as great as people think, and if MB can support him better, he'll have a chance to prove it. We'll see. I certainly hope so. I would love for Price to prove me wrong. I'm just waiting for him to show greatness in the playoffs. That's what I want from him. I don't give a **** about his regular season wins and save %. If he shows up in the playoffs, I'll start worshiping at his altar.
I agree with a lot of what you posted. Comparing him to all time greats is premature for sure. But he's one of the only good things this team has. It's pathetic that's all we have, but it is what it is. I'm a former goaltender so I have an ego when it comes to understanding the position. Price's legacy shouldn't be weighed on only winning a cup. Even Lundqvist had much better teams then what he have/had and couldn't get it done. The 93 team is the only cup we won where it felt like we were a little weak, but even then it was much better then the garbage we have now, and Patrick Roy is a top 3 goalie of all time.

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07-16-2017, 03:24 PM
  #65
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I agree with a lot of what you posted. Comparing him to all time greats is premature for sure. But he's one of the only good things this team has. It's pathetic that's all we have, but it is what it is. I'm a former goaltender so I have an ego when it comes to understanding the position. Price's legacy shouldn't be weighed on only winning a cup. Even Lundqvist had much better teams then what he have/had and couldn't get it done. The 93 team is the only cup we won where it felt like we were a little weak, but even then it was much better then the garbage we have now, and Patrick Roy is a top 3 goalie of all time.
When I look at the league nowadays, it feels like there's a lot of depth in talent but because of it, the best players don't stand out as much (not just talking about goalies here but it's especially true with them I guess). I wonder if it's because everyone is great or because no one is...

But I look at the current crop of goalies and I don't see any Roy, Brodeur or Hasek. Perhaps Murray is the next Roy. He's shown an uncanny ability at raising his game in the playoffs. People will dismiss him because he plays for the pens but Fleury couldn't get it done with them. Again is Fleury bad, and Murray is just a normal goalie ? Or is Murray great and Fleury average ? I'd tend to go with the latter but no one seems to think that highly of Murray from what I've read on these boards whereas I find him hugely impressive.

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07-16-2017, 05:09 PM
  #66
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I think price will win a cup. I hope he does it with Montreal, but realistically I think it will be done with another team... :/

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07-16-2017, 05:22 PM
  #67
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When I look at the league nowadays, it feels like there's a lot of depth in talent but because of it, the best players don't stand out as much (not just talking about goalies here but it's especially true with them I guess). I wonder if it's because everyone is great or because no one is...

But I look at the current crop of goalies and I don't see any Roy, Brodeur or Hasek. Perhaps Murray is the next Roy. He's shown an uncanny ability at raising his game in the playoffs. People will dismiss him because he plays for the pens but Fleury couldn't get it done with them. Again is Fleury bad, and Murray is just a normal goalie ? Or is Murray great and Fleury average ? I'd tend to go with the latter but no one seems to think that highly of Murray from what I've read on these boards whereas I find him hugely impressive.
And some try to make it out as an incredible feat to steal a game. Murray won the cup for the Pens with b2b shutouts! The highest pressure environment and the guy goes out and blanks the opponents. And then look at the D in front of him. Sure Malkin/Crosby etc... That D group was not impressive. Has Price ever done b2b playoff shutouts?

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07-16-2017, 05:50 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by One Less Louise View Post
When I look at the league nowadays, it feels like there's a lot of depth in talent but because of it, the best players don't stand out as much (not just talking about goalies here but it's especially true with them I guess). I wonder if it's because everyone is great or because no one is...

But I look at the current crop of goalies and I don't see any Roy, Brodeur or Hasek. Perhaps Murray is the next Roy. He's shown an uncanny ability at raising his game in the playoffs. People will dismiss him because he plays for the pens but Fleury couldn't get it done with them. Again is Fleury bad, and Murray is just a normal goalie ? Or is Murray great and Fleury average ? I'd tend to go with the latter but no one seems to think that highly of Murray from what I've read on these boards whereas I find him hugely impressive.
Fleury had problems with pressure in big games dating back to the World Juniors. Murray is one of the best technical goaltenders in the league at a young age. A little slow laterally, poor glove but he's a lot better already then Fleury ever was, and without the mental lapses. Reality is, even with Letang out, their team defence has been incredible the past two years. He doesn't need to steal games because Pittsburgh is capable of getting timely goals from their players. We haven't had any clutch playoff goalscorers since Bourque and Eller were fluking out in 2014. Subban trade also hurt a lot in that category as he offensively as well in the playoffs.

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07-16-2017, 06:35 PM
  #69
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You think you destroyed my line of reasoning but actually you'll be surprised by the numbers when we do compare to other goalies...

Roy's save percentages in his final four regular seasons in Montreal:

95-96 12th .907 (Hasek .920)
94-95 14th .906 (Hasek .930)
93-94 3rd .918 (Hasek .930)
92-93 8th .894 (Joseph .911)


Price's save percentages in his final four regular seasons in Montreal:

16-17 7th .923 (Bobrovsky .931)
15-16 1st .934 (however only 12 games)
14-15 1st .933
13-14 3rd .927 (Harding .933 only 29 games)

Over the four year period, Roy was 7th in save percentage, while Price has been 1st in save percentage over the last 4 years.

No doubt Roy had good playoffs in 1993 and great playoffs in 1986, but in many of the seasons in between he was ordinary and giving up one bad goal every other game.

But honestly each playoff year is a small sample size. Four straight years of regular season during a goalie's prime years are a better gauge of relative strength.

Roy from ages 27-30 was significantly weaker at stopping the puck, relative to his peers, than Price from ages 26-29.

Also notice that the top keeper in those last three years of Roy in Montreal was stopping pucks at about .927 whereas now it is about .932. The difference is not as big as you were making it out to be.
Now THAT is a good line of argument. Relative to his peers Price has been a more consistently dominant than Roy was. And it's what I was alluding to earlier. Roy wasn't as consistent as some people think he was. And that's esp true in the playoffs. And he NEVER had a team as bad as the ones Price has had in front of him either.

People should appreciate just how good and consistent Price has been. He's not there yet but if he has a few more year like the last three or four then he'll have himself a HOF career. I think he'll get there. The jersey retirement is another story. Too early to say on both though. He's certainly not there yet. All of this rests on the assumption that he's going to continue to play the way he has. He's still got to do that for at least four or so more years.

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07-16-2017, 06:39 PM
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Now THAT is a good line of argument. Relative to his peers Price has been a more consistently dominant than Roy was. And it's what I was alluding to earlier. Roy wasn't as consistent as some people think he was. And that's esp true in the playoffs. And he NEVER had a team as bad as the ones Price has had in front of him either.
All of what you just said is completely wrong.

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07-16-2017, 06:43 PM
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Roy didn't just win 2 cups, he won the MVP of the playoffs on those two occasions. He also brought the habs to the finals in 89.

Also, I don't see how you can say Price has been more consistent when you have to take the last 4 years of Price's career to paint him in a good light (one of which was spent on the IR). How is that consistency ? In his first 10 seasons Roy had 4 jennings and 3 vezinas !!! In his first 10 seasons, Price has 1 vezina and 1 jennings and it's the same year, so how can that be more consistent ? I also think Roy's worst seasons were better than Price's worst seasons. I just fail to see how you can make that claim.

You want consistency ? Here's consistency

Roy Trophy Case :
88-89 : Vezina, #4 in hart votes
89-90 : Vezina, #5 in hart votes
90-91 : 2nd in Vezina votes
91-92 : Vezina, #2 in hart votes
92-93 : 6th in Vezina votes but Conn Smythe and Stanley cup


If anything Price had a higher regular season peak than Roy. But even that is debatable because Roy had a .912 save % in 89-90 and league average was .881. #2 was .903. Back then those trophies were scorer centric. Was almost impossible for a goalie to win it.



If Price wins a Conn Smythe in a losing effort, that would also be enough for me to retire his jersey. He would start to enter the discussion. Because of course, in this day and age, in a 30-31 teams league, it's way harder to win it all. That means perhaps standards could be lowered a little in terms of cup wins.
No way Patrick Roy would've won a cup with the teams Price has been on. No way Hasek would've done it either. A finals appearance? Maybe. And Price himself might've done it in 2014 without getting hurt. But there's just no way that those teams win a cup.

At the start of 2015 I genuinely thought we might win. But that was greatly in part because I believed Price could take us there and that we'd actually get some help at the deadline. It never came and we once again went to war with DD as our first line guy. There's no way you win that way. NOBODY can do it.

Roy has the advantage of having actually won. You can't take that from him. Maybe Price would've won multiple cups with those teams as well (I think he would've) but it's speculation. And unless he wins a cup (which he never will unless we get a new GM who knows how to fill out a roster) it will always be speculative. He'll never be considered as good as Roy without at least one cup. Fair or not, that's the way it will be.

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07-16-2017, 07:00 PM
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No way Patrick Roy would've won a cup with the teams Price has been on. No way Hasek would've done it either. A finals appearance? Maybe. And Price himself might've done it in 2014 without getting hurt. But there's just no way that those teams win a cup.
Ok. Maybe not. But conversely no way Price would have won a cup with those teams Roy was on. No way. Not at the ages Roy did it anyway.

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07-16-2017, 07:20 PM
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No way Patrick Roy would've won a cup with the teams Price has been on. No way Hasek would've done it either. A finals appearance? Maybe. And Price himself might've done it in 2014 without getting hurt. But there's just no way that those teams win a cup.

At the start of 2015 I genuinely thought we might win. But that was greatly in part because I believed Price could take us there and that we'd actually get some help at the deadline. It never came and we once again went to war with DD as our first line guy. There's no way you win that way. NOBODY can do it.

Roy has the advantage of having actually won. You can't take that from him. Maybe Price would've won multiple cups with those teams as well (I think he would've) but it's speculation. And unless he wins a cup (which he never will unless we get a new GM who knows how to fill out a roster) it will always be speculative. He'll never be considered as good as Roy without at least one cup. Fair or not, that's the way it will be.
I think prime Price could win with a team like the 86' Cup without breaking a sweat. Most amazing part of that win for Roy was his age. Price didn't mature until he was 23 whereas Roy was a freak. That 93' team was vintage playoff Roy. It would be very tough for Price to repeat that. That was a gear only Roy seemed to have in the playoffs.

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07-16-2017, 07:59 PM
  #74
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Ok. Maybe not. But conversely no way Price would have won a cup with those teams Roy was on. No way. Not at the ages Roy did it anyway.
"No way?" This is false. I have no problem with somebody who felt he wouldn't do it. But to put it out of the realm of possibility is nuts.

As I said in my post, Roy DID win. That's a fact. And until Price wins (which I don't think he will with this club anyway) Roy will always be considered the better goalie (wether he actually was or wasn't.)

Even if Price isn't as good as Roy was though... there's absolutely no shame in that.

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07-16-2017, 08:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nhlfan9191 View Post
I think prime Price could win with a team like the 86' Cup without breaking a sweat. Most amazing part of that win for Roy was his age. Price didn't mature until he was 23 whereas Roy was a freak. That 93' team was vintage playoff Roy. It would be very tough for Price to repeat that. That was a gear only Roy seemed to have in the playoffs.
I think Price would've won multiple cups with those teams as well. And I think he'd have won one here if we'd had just a little bit better teams and minus Therrien.

We'll never really know though...

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