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Carey Price : Which is most likely to happen?

View Poll Results: Carey Price: Which scenarios are mostly to Happen?
Win a Cup in MTL 5 3.03%
Get his #31 retired by the Habs 11 6.67%
Gets Elected into the Hockey Hall of Fame 32 19.39%
All of the Above 24 14.55%
2 out of 3 61 36.97%
None of the Above 32 19.39%
Voters: 165. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
07-16-2017, 08:00 PM
  #76
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Hes not winning a cup but hes HOF bound and getting his 31 retired.

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07-16-2017, 09:16 PM
  #77
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I voted just for HoF. If he gets a Cup it'll guarantee his jersey retired and the HoF

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07-17-2017, 07:27 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by One Less Louise View Post
All of what you just said is completely wrong.
It's not just that Price is # 1 in some stat. It's that he is so completely dominant against the rest of the field. Save Percentage total over the past 4 seasons:

1) Price .928
2) Talbot .922

The gap between # 1 and # 2 is just as large as the gap between # 2 and # 24. Price is a complete outlier. Nobody is even close. Sheer and utter dominance. At no time was Roy ever that good relative to the rest of the field. In fact in the 4 years through the Cup in 1993 he wasn't even first in save percentage - Cujo was, and Belfour was pretty close too. From 92-93 through 95-96 Roy ranked 5th in the league. And it wasn't just Hasek that was better, Vanbiesbrouck and Potvin were also ahead.

Roy was incredible. He was a pioneer. He won two Cups by himself, and so far Price has never managed that feat. But unless he falls off a cliff, Price will have the better numbers relative to contemporary goalies. 2 Olympic Gold medals plus a World Cup and World Junior gold. He has clinched a HHOF place already, and he'll almost certainly get his number retired if he stays for all (or most) of his contract. Cup or no cup.

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07-17-2017, 07:48 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by CGG View Post
It's not just that Price is # 1 in some stat. It's that he is so completely dominant against the rest of the field. Save Percentage total over the past 4 seasons:

1) Price .928
2) Talbot .922

The gap between # 1 and # 2 is just as large as the gap between # 2 and # 24. Price is a complete outlier. Nobody is even close. Sheer and utter dominance. At no time was Roy ever that good relative to the rest of the field. In fact in the 4 years through the Cup in 1993 he wasn't even first in save percentage - Cujo was, and Belfour was pretty close too. From 92-93 through 95-96 Roy ranked 5th in the league. And it wasn't just Hasek that was better, Vanbiesbrouck and Potvin were also ahead.

Roy was incredible. He was a pioneer. He won two Cups by himself, and so far Price has never managed that feat. But unless he falls off a cliff, Price will have the better numbers relative to contemporary goalies. 2 Olympic Gold medals plus a World Cup and World Junior gold. He has clinched a HHOF place already, and he'll almost certainly get his number retired if he stays for all (or most) of his contract. Cup or no cup.
You cannot compare eras. The game was completely different back then.
Last season, there was only one player scoring 90+ pts, that was McDavid at 100. Only three players reached the 40 goal plateau.
In 92-93, Mogilny scored 76 goals in 77 games. There were 25 players who reached the 40+ goal plateau and 31 players scored 90+ pts. That's just ****ing insane.

So ya, maybe Roy's percentage wasn't as good or even the best in his era, but it's completely irrelevant as the NHL was completely different back then.

Just because there were other insanely great keepers in the league back then, like Hasek and Brodeur, it shouldn't take anything away from Roy.

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07-17-2017, 08:16 AM
  #80
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Roy was more than just one of the best goalies. He changed the way goalies played. He made butterfly the norm.

What some here forget is that back before his number was retired, a lot of Habs fans were against it and said Roy didn't accomplish enough as a Hab. Many felt that he was HOF worthy due to his time in Montreal and Colorado but his number retired in Montreal wasn't right compared to the other players up there.

Personally I don't know. Cups are team accomplishments not player. You can't hold the decisions of bad GMs on his shoulder. I guess I'll put it this way. If Price plays most of his career in Montreal and retires, and two years later Montreal drafts a top 5 kid who wants to wear #31, will it feel wrong? Would there be pressure for the kid to wear a different number? Or would it just look weird but not be objectionable?

To me that's why you retire a number.

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07-17-2017, 08:17 AM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
You cannot compare eras. The game was completely different back then.
Last season, there was only one player scoring 90+ pts, that was McDavid at 100. Only three players reached the 40 goal plateau.
In 92-93, Mogilny scored 76 goals in 77 games. There were 25 players who reached the 40+ goal plateau and 31 players scored 90+ pts. That's just ****ing insane.

So ya, maybe Roy's percentage wasn't as good or even the best in his era, but it's completely irrelevant as the NHL was completely different back then.

Just because there were other insanely great keepers in the league back then, like Hasek and Brodeur, it shouldn't take anything away from Roy.
Yes because the field of goaltending is far superior today than it was back then. Where you might have had 5 good goalies back in Roy's time, you have about 20 now. And Price is still ahead of everyone.

As for Roy being a pioneer, no one denies that. But people might fail to realize that Price has almost perfected the new style of goaltending. It's a combination of athleticism, technique and positioning. You're going to see more goalies emulate this. I'm no goaltending expert, but I've never seen a goalie be this good at all aspects of the game. Typically they lean one way or another (more athletic, more positional, etc).


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Old
07-17-2017, 08:32 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by le_sean View Post
Yes because the field of goaltending is far superior today than it was back then. Where you might have had 5 good goalies back in Roy's time, you have about 20 now. And Price is still ahead of everyone.

As for Roy being a pioneer, no one denies that. But people might fail to realize that Price has almost perfected the new style of goaltending. It's a combination of athleticism, technique and positioning. You're going to see more goalies emulate this. I'm no goaltending expert, but I've never seen a goalie be this good at all aspects of the game. Typically they lean one way or another (more athletic, more positional, etc).
Add to that, Price's exceptional puck-handling.

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07-17-2017, 08:38 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by le_sean View Post
Yes because the field of goaltending is far superior today than it was back then. Where you might have had 5 good goalies back in Roy's time, you have about 20 now. And Price is still ahead of everyone.

As for Roy being a pioneer, no one denies that. But people might fail to realize that Price has almost perfected the new style of goaltending. It's a combination of atheleticism, technique and positioning. You're going to see more goalies emulate this.
If there were no Roy, Brodeur, Hasek, there would never be a Price. It's a silly exercise to compare eras.
What do you mean 5 good goalies?? Roy, Brodeur, Belfour, Fuhr, Vanbiesbrouk, Khabibulin, Potvin, Moog, Hasek, Cujo, etc..You're not going to argue with me that there weren't a lot of good goalies back then. There was, and Roy was at the top. The man was a beast.
It's not just the field of goaltending that has improved. It's the entire game. A guy like Scott Stevens would never have the same career if he were entering the game today with the same style.
Some of the forwards before would have a hard time keeping up with the game today as well.

The entire game has developed, so I think it's rather unfair and silly to compare eras.

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07-17-2017, 08:45 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by BaseballCoach View Post
Jacques Lemaire was greatly superior to Saku Koivu. And won 8 cups.
Koivu also did not have Lafleur and Shutt for wingers. No one knows what Koivu could have done on a decent team.

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07-17-2017, 08:54 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by One Less Louise View Post
All of what you just said is completely wrong.
It's really not. Price has been extremely dominant over his competitors for a while now. As for consistency, you really didn't watch Roy if you don't remember how all over the map he was in the playoffs. He was awful in quite a few playoff runs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CGG View Post
It's not just that Price is # 1 in some stat. It's that he is so completely dominant against the rest of the field. Save Percentage total over the past 4 seasons:

1) Price .928
2) Talbot .922

The gap between # 1 and # 2 is just as large as the gap between # 2 and # 24. Price is a complete outlier. Nobody is even close. Sheer and utter dominance. At no time was Roy ever that good relative to the rest of the field. In fact in the 4 years through the Cup in 1993 he wasn't even first in save percentage - Cujo was, and Belfour was pretty close too. From 92-93 through 95-96 Roy ranked 5th in the league. And it wasn't just Hasek that was better, Vanbiesbrouck and Potvin were also ahead.

Roy was incredible. He was a pioneer. He won two Cups by himself, and so far Price has never managed that feat. But unless he falls off a cliff, Price will have the better numbers relative to contemporary goalies. 2 Olympic Gold medals plus a World Cup and World Junior gold. He has clinched a HHOF place already, and he'll almost certainly get his number retired if he stays for all (or most) of his contract. Cup or no cup.
This all rests on the speculation that he'll continue to be great for the next four or five years (an assumption I agree with) and that will put him in the HOF for sure. "Cup or no cup"... true.

Fairly or not though, if you don't have a cup on your resume, you won't be considered to be "as great."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
You cannot compare eras. The game was completely different back then.
Last season, there was only one player scoring 90+ pts, that was McDavid at 100. Only three players reached the 40 goal plateau.
In 92-93, Mogilny scored 76 goals in 77 games. There were 25 players who reached the 40+ goal plateau and 31 players scored 90+ pts. That's just ****ing insane.

So ya, maybe Roy's percentage wasn't as good or even the best in his era, but it's completely irrelevant as the NHL was completely different back then.

Just because there were other insanely great keepers in the league back then, like Hasek and Brodeur, it shouldn't take anything away from Roy.
You can compare how players did relative to their peers though. And relative to his peers Price has been bar none best in the league. That's indisputable from a numbers standpoint.

Roy was never that dominant compared to Hasek, Brodeur, Belfour... And again, Roy had one of the best defensive teams ever put together in front of him. That was an absolutely terrific defensive squad.
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Originally Posted by No Team Needed View Post
Roy was more than just one of the best goalies. He changed the way goalies played. He made butterfly the norm.

What some here forget is that back before his number was retired, a lot of Habs fans were against it and said Roy didn't accomplish enough as a Hab. Many felt that he was HOF worthy due to his time in Montreal and Colorado but his number retired in Montreal wasn't right compared to the other players up there.

Personally I don't know. Cups are team accomplishments not player. You can't hold the decisions of bad GMs on his shoulder. I guess I'll put it this way. If Price plays most of his career in Montreal and retires, and two years later Montreal drafts a top 5 kid who wants to wear #31, will it feel wrong? Would there be pressure for the kid to wear a different number? Or would it just look weird but not be objectionable?

To me that's why you retire a number.
And the answer right now is... no. 31 would be just fine for another player based on if Price finished his career today.

But he's going to be here for a while longer. Let's have the discussion then.
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
If there were no Roy, Brodeur, Hasek, there would never be a Price. It's a silly exercise to compare eras.
What do you mean 5 good goalies?? Roy, Brodeur, Belfour, Fuhr, Vanbiesbrouk, Khabibulin, Potvin, Moog, Hasek, Cujo, etc..You're not going to argue with me that there weren't a lot of good goalies back then. There was, and Roy was at the top. The man was a beast.
It's not just the field of goaltending that has improved. It's the entire game. A guy like Scott Stevens would never have the same career if he were entering the game today with the same style.
Some of the forwards before would have a hard time keeping up with the game today as well.

The entire game has developed, so I think it's rather unfair and silly to compare eras.
Roy was an influential goalie for sure. If that's the question then I think you could make the argument that he's the most influential ever. But that's not really what's being discussed here. It's a question of dominance and consistency.

To me, Price is the more consistent goalie. But Roy has a few runs where he was untouchable and won two cups being by far the best player on his team. That can't be taken from him.

I just think it's sad that we've wasted prime years from not one but two superstar players (one who's now gone) and things actually look worse going forward. To have wasted Price the way we have is a total disgrace. With even an average coach and an average number one center I think we'd have won a cup by now.

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07-17-2017, 08:56 AM
  #86
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If Price wins a Stanley Cup (here), then he's an automatic HHOF. Probably because it would involve a very good playoff performance at the very worst. Price isn't even far from HHOF territory if we only look at regular season, and he has some international accolades.

A Cup is probably a prerequisite for jersey retirement.

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07-17-2017, 09:02 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
If Price wins a Stanley Cup (here), then he's an automatic HHOF. Probably because it would involve a very good playoff performance at the very worst. Price isn't even far from HHOF territory if we only look at regular season, and he has some international accolades.

A Cup is probably a prerequisite for jersey retirement.
I don't think so. Not anymore.

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07-17-2017, 09:02 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
If there were no Roy, Brodeur, Hasek, there would never be a Price. It's a silly exercise to compare eras.
What do you mean 5 good goalies?? Roy, Brodeur, Belfour, Fuhr, Vanbiesbrouk, Khabibulin, Potvin, Moog, Hasek, Cujo, etc..You're not going to argue with me that there weren't a lot of good goalies back then. There was, and Roy was at the top. The man was a beast.
It's not just the field of goaltending that has improved. It's the entire game. A guy like Scott Stevens would never have the same career if he were entering the game today with the same style.
Some of the forwards before would have a hard time keeping up with the game today as well.

The entire game has developed, so I think it's rather unfair and silly to compare eras.
Lol Beezer, Potvin and Moog? Please. These are guys who had like 3 good years.

And you're right, the game has changed. There's guys on 3rd lines back then that wouldn't even be 4th liners today. So that's a point for Price, obviously.

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07-17-2017, 09:03 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post

Roy was never that dominant compared to Hasek, Brodeur, Belfour... And again, Roy had one of the best defensive teams ever put together in front of him. That was an absolutely terrific defensive squad.
.
With respect, I think you'd probably have to reassess the stretch between 87-88 to 91-92. Per example, in 1990-91, Roy posted a .906 SV% in a .884 environment and with only 4 netminders above .900.

And then you realize that 90-91 was, by far, Roy's weakest season during that stretch. Even that season, he was quite close to Ed Belfour. And it was Belfour's best season.

Roy doesn't have Hasek's peak : but his peak a significantly better than Brodeur and Belfour.

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07-17-2017, 09:06 AM
  #90
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I don't think so. Not anymore.
There's absolutely no hard evidence to that effect.
However, if you were to tell me that Price MIGHT start this trend, I'd probably agree.

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07-17-2017, 09:18 AM
  #91
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With respect, I think you'd probably have to reassess the stretch between 87-88 to 91-92. Per example, in 1990-91, Roy posted a .906 SV% in a .884 environment and with only 4 netminders above .900.

And then you realize that 90-91 was, by far, Roy's weakest season during that stretch. Even that season, he was quite close to Ed Belfour. And it was Belfour's best season.

Roy doesn't have Hasek's peak : but his peak a significantly better than Brodeur and Belfour.
I'm not suggesting Roy wasn't as good as Brodeur. I'm simply saying that he didn't dominate those players as much as people think he did. That five year stretch is pretty great though.

We also have to remember that Price still hasn't finished his career. He might crap the bed for the next five years...
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There's absolutely no hard evidence to that effect.
However, if you were to tell me that Price MIGHT start this trend, I'd probably agree.
Of course there's not hard evidence... we haven't had anyone HOF worthy in our lineup in a long, long time.

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07-17-2017, 09:28 AM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
You cannot compare eras. The game was completely different back then.
Last season, there was only one player scoring 90+ pts, that was McDavid at 100. Only three players reached the 40 goal plateau.
In 92-93, Mogilny scored 76 goals in 77 games. There were 25 players who reached the 40+ goal plateau and 31 players scored 90+ pts. That's just ****ing insane.

So ya, maybe Roy's percentage wasn't as good or even the best in his era, but it's completely irrelevant as the NHL was completely different back then.

Just because there were other insanely great keepers in the league back then, like Hasek and Brodeur, it shouldn't take anything away from Roy.
He's ranking where they both compared against their competition, not sure how that has anything to do with "different eras and Molgilny scoring 76 goals in 77 games". Every other goalie in that era was facing the Molgilny's of the world as well. You can argue Roy had tougher competition with Hasek and co, but it doesn't change the fact Price has a pretty significant leap on everyone over a pretty extended period of time in his era.

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07-17-2017, 09:34 AM
  #93
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no cup, no retire jersey, no HOF

the guy has proven nothing when it counts

overpaid and overrated

would rather have a 5 mil goalie and a center

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07-17-2017, 09:34 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I'm not suggesting Roy wasn't as good as Brodeur. I'm simply saying that he didn't dominate those players as much as people think he did. That five year stretch is pretty great though.

We also have to remember that Price still hasn't finished his career. He might crap the bed for the next five years...

Of course there's not hard evidence... we haven't had anyone HOF worthy in our lineup in a long, long time.
I didn't understand your post as suggesting Roy wasn't as good as Brodeur (let alone Belfour). But his peak is quite a bit better both of these goalies (and then you realize that, while Roy's peak is very, very strong, and stronger than Brodeur and Belfour, it isn't even Roy's forte (which would be clutch play and consistency). Roy is sortof of Ray Bourque of netminders : his prime was basically his whole career, and he was so consistent that you'd nearly forget that not many goaltenders had a better peak than he did. I can only count two (Sawchuk and Hasek) on top of my head.

I'd be very surprised if Price completely craps the bed, especially with that coach.

HOF Worthy? Well, we had Mark Recchi, who wasn't very good with us but who is probably gonna end up in the HHOF (and not only because having Andreychuk in while having Recchi out makes no sense). We had PK Subban and we now have Shea Weber. Both players career aren't over yet, but it's generally understood that Weber mostly needs to add games at this point, and that Subban probably needs to add one season that's in the range of his 2014-15 season (along with games), to make their eventual non-inclusion a bit of an head-scratcher.

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07-17-2017, 09:36 AM
  #95
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He's ranking where they both compared against their competition, not sure how that has anything to do with "different eras and Molgilny scoring 76 goals in 77 games". Every other goalie in that era was facing the Molgilny's of the world as well. You can argue Roy had tougher competition with Hasek and co, but it doesn't change the fact Price has a pretty significant leap on everyone over a pretty extended period of time in his era.
Well... Roy had tougher competition, but take out Hasek and the difference is minimal. Yeah, Brodeur, but a significant part of Brodeur's legacy came after Roy's retirement anyways. Many of Roy's competition weren't the most consistent netminders either (Barrasso, Belfour comes to mind as not particularily consistent netminders).

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07-17-2017, 09:41 AM
  #96
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How many HOF players didn't get their jersey retired by the Habs ? (Career habs.)

How many non SC winner did get their jersey retired by the Habs ?

How many future HOFers are gonna have a SC ?

How many SC winners are gonna go to the HOF ?

Do the math, and stop with the asinine arguments.

Stanley cups don't matter as player legacy go. Case in point: Hasek and Bourque.

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07-17-2017, 09:44 AM
  #97
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I didn't understand your post as suggesting Roy wasn't as good as Brodeur (let alone Belfour). But his peak is quite a bit better both of these goalies (and then you realize that, while Roy's peak is very, very strong, and stronger than Brodeur and Belfour, it isn't even Roy's forte (which would be clutch play and consistency). Roy is sortof of Ray Bourque of netminders : his prime was basically his whole career, and he was so consistent that you'd nearly forget that not many goaltenders had a better peak than he did. I can only count two (Sawchuk and Hasek) on top of my head.

I'd be very surprised if Price completely craps the bed, especially with that coach.

HOF Worthy? Well, we had Mark Recchi, who wasn't very good with us but who is probably gonna end up in the HHOF (and not only because having Andreychuk in while having Recchi out makes no sense). We had PK Subban and we now have Shea Weber. Both players career aren't over yet, but it's generally understood that Weber mostly needs to add games at this point, and that Subban probably needs to add one season that's in the range of his 2014-15 season (along with games), to make their eventual non-inclusion a bit of an head-scratcher.
Having Rechhi for a year or two or Weber at the end of his career isnt' the same thing as enjoying a HOFer for his career. We really haven't had that until we got Subban (gone) and Price.

As for Roy, as I said if Price finishes below him (and he probably will)... no shame in that. Roy was a great goalie and his cup wins are legendary. My point is that it's not this huge gulf between them. To say they aren't close isn't accurate. The big differentiatior is the cups. And unfortunately, Price never really had a club in front of him that was good enough to compete. Imagine him with Some of Roy's teams. You think we wouldn't have a couple of cups by now? I think we would.
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Well... Roy had tougher competition, but take out Hasek and the difference is minimal. Yeah, Brodeur, but a significant part of Brodeur's legacy came after Roy's retirement anyways. Many of Roy's competition weren't the most consistent netminders either (Barrasso, Belfour comes to mind as not particularily consistent netminders).
But Roy had terrific defensive teams in front of him. We were the Devils before they became the Devils. Carbonneau, Gainey, Chelios, Robinson... Stifling system with fantastic defensive players. Hasek didn't have that. Price doesn't have that...

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07-17-2017, 09:51 AM
  #98
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How many HOF players didn't get their jersey retired by the Habs ? (Career habs.)

How many non SC winner did get their jersey retired by the Habs ?

How many future HOFers are gonna have a SC ?

How many SC winners are gonna go to the HOF ?

Do the math, and stop with the asinine arguments.

Stanley cups don't matter as player legacy go. Case in point: Hasek and Bourque.
- Quite a bit : amongst "Mostly Habs and more", Bert Olmstead, Tom Johnson, Ken Reardon, Toe Blake, Sylvio Mantha, Steve Shutt, Jacques Lemaire, Bill Durnan. JC Tremblay should be on this list as well.

- None. However, that team never went less than 7 seasons with no cups between '44 and '00.

- Quite a bit : There's no way Henrik Lundqvist and Erik Karlsson don't end up in the HHOF regardless of how many Cups they're adding to their resume from now on.

- Quite a bit too : that's kinda tough to answer to this one since there are so many obvious examples.

- Both Hasek and Bourque won the Stanley Cup at some point. However, both are also Top-12 players of all time, and I haven't mentionned anyone in this post who is, and who will get, any where close to this. Cups help for sure : they're not necessary. Hell, take Mark Howe : no Stanley Cup, no Norris. Hockey Hall of Famer. Probably a mid-tier one.


Last edited by MXD: 07-17-2017 at 10:02 AM.
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07-17-2017, 09:58 AM
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habsgirl5000
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Originally Posted by Mrb1p View Post

How many non SC winner did get their jersey retired by the Habs ?

.

uuummm none, so why start now?

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07-17-2017, 09:58 AM
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MXD
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Having Rechhi for a year or two or Weber at the end of his career isnt' the same thing as enjoying a HOFer for his career. We really haven't had that until we got Subban (gone) and Price.

As for Roy, as I said if Price finishes below him (and he probably will)... no shame in that. Roy was a great goalie and his cup wins are legendary. My point is that it's not this huge gulf between them. To say they aren't close isn't accurate. The big differentiatior is the cups. And unfortunately, Price never really had a club in front of him that was good enough to compete. Imagine him with Some of Roy's teams. You think we wouldn't have a couple of cups by now? I think we would.

But Roy had terrific defensive teams in front of him. We were the Devils before they became the Devils. Carbonneau, Gainey, Chelios, Robinson... Stifling system with fantastic defensive players. Hasek didn't have that. Price doesn't have that...
- Geez, Shea Weber is, what, 32?

- There would be no shame in Price not having any cups with the teams Roy had infront of him; there's a reason why he won the CS in both of them, there's a reason why he's the best playoff netminder of all-time, there's a reason why the only player who might've had accomplished more in the playoffs is Wayne Gretzky and there's not much reason to think the Habs would've won those two Cups if there was anybody else manning the crease. They are absolutely not close in the grand scheme of things (but Ed Belfour isn't either, and there's absolutely no questionning his status as a HHOF'er). Being close to Roy, as a goalie, isn't a pre-requisite to get in the HHOF.

- The players you named were not necessarily Habs during Roy's dominant stretch. One of them was even playing for the Blackhawks, whose defense was absolutely terrific by then! But we did have Pat Burns. The good thing for Price is, right now, we probably have the closest thing to Pat Burns behind the best as opposed to, I don't know, poor man's Keenan?

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