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Carey Price : Which is most likely to happen?

View Poll Results: Carey Price: Which scenarios are mostly to Happen?
Win a Cup in MTL 5 3.03%
Get his #31 retired by the Habs 11 6.67%
Gets Elected into the Hockey Hall of Fame 32 19.39%
All of the Above 24 14.55%
2 out of 3 61 36.97%
None of the Above 32 19.39%
Voters: 165. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
07-17-2017, 09:59 AM
  #101
nhlfan9191
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
Well... Roy had tougher competition, but take out Hasek and the difference is minimal. Yeah, Brodeur, but a significant part of Brodeur's legacy came after Roy's retirement anyways. Many of Roy's competition weren't the most consistent netminders either (Barrasso, Belfour comes to mind as not particularily consistent netminders).
Ignoring Hasek of course, the competition was a little bit better imo back then imo. Price sticks out a lot more because he can post elite numbers on average teams. Nowadays, nobody other then Price sticks out. Most of the goaltenders nowadays are system goalies and get ranked on that. With Julien, even he can become a product of a system now. Bobrovsky's two Vezina's were impressive but everything before and after those two seasons has been wildly inconsistent for him.

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07-17-2017, 10:02 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by le_sean View Post
Lol Beezer, Potvin and Moog? Please. These are guys who had like 3 good years.

And you're right, the game has changed. There's guys on 3rd lines back then that wouldn't even be 4th liners today. So that's a point for Price, obviously.
You are not going to argue to me that guys like Talbot, Crawford and Fleury were better than the Beezer or Osgood or Vernon of yesteryears.

Sure, and Price with the equipment of the 90s would see a lot more pucks go through him. While there was more clutch and grab back then, the defensemen were a lot less mobile and a lot more useless today. As you said, some of the guys who played back then wouldn't even cut it today, which means the guys in front of the goalies sucked a lot more. Goes both ways.
Precisely my point as to why comparing eras is just silly.

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07-17-2017, 10:19 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
You can compare how players did relative to their peers though. And relative to his peers Price has been bar none best in the league. That's indisputable from a numbers standpoint.
Well you think very highly of Price, and while I think he is the best goalie, I don't think the discrepency between him and Lunqvist or Bobrovsky, or Rinne during his prime, is that big.

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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Roy was never that dominant compared to Hasek, Brodeur, Belfour... And again, Roy had one of the best defensive teams ever put together in front of him. That was an absolutely terrific defensive squad.
And I don't think you can say Price has dominated over the King or Bobrovsky. Been better? Sure. Dominated them? I wouldn't say that.
They are all tied at .920 career wise. You could throw Holtby into the discussion too who has a career .922.

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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Roy was an influential goalie for sure. If that's the question then I think you could make the argument that he's the most influential ever. But that's not really what's being discussed here. It's a question of dominance and consistency.
Well if you're going to talk about this then you need to include the POs and there is no ****ing way one can give the edge of dominance to Price over Roy in the POs.

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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
To me, Price is the more consistent goalie. But Roy has a few runs where he was untouchable and won two cups being by far the best player on his team. That can't be taken from him.
I will give the edge to Price being the more technical goalie. As for consistency, we need to see how Price finishes his career before.

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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I just think it's sad that we've wasted prime years from not one but two superstar players (one who's now gone) and things actually look worse going forward. To have wasted Price the way we have is a total disgrace. With even an average coach and an average number one center I think we'd have won a cup by now.
Well, you know we agree on that. Bergevin completely ruined a chance to build a really solid team.

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07-17-2017, 10:25 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
You are not going to argue to me that guys like Talbot, Crawford and Fleury were better than the Beezer or Osgood or Vernon of yesteryears.

Sure, and Price with the equipment of the 90s would see a lot more pucks go through him. While there was more clutch and grab back then, the defensemen were a lot less mobile and a lot more useless today. As you said, some of the guys who played back then wouldn't even cut it today, which means the guys in front of the goalies sucked a lot more. Goes both ways.
Precisely my point as to why comparing eras is just silly.
Yes guys like Crawford, Holtby, Bobrovsky, Quick, Schneider, Lundqvist, Bishop, Talbot, Murray, Dubnyk are all better. Luongo and Rinne in other years too.

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07-17-2017, 10:40 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
I didn't understand your post as suggesting Roy wasn't as good as Brodeur (let alone Belfour). But his peak is quite a bit better both of these goalies (and then you realize that, while Roy's peak is very, very strong, and stronger than Brodeur and Belfour, it isn't even Roy's forte (which would be clutch play and consistency). Roy is sortof of Ray Bourque of netminders : his prime was basically his whole career, and he was so consistent that you'd nearly forget that not many goaltenders had a better peak than he did. I can only count two (Sawchuk and Hasek) on top of my head.

I'd be very surprised if Price completely craps the bed, especially with that coach.

HOF Worthy? Well, we had Mark Recchi, who wasn't very good with us but who is probably gonna end up in the HHOF (and not only because having Andreychuk in while having Recchi out makes no sense). We had PK Subban and we now have Shea Weber. Both players career aren't over yet, but it's generally understood that Weber mostly needs to add games at this point, and that Subban probably needs to add one season that's in the range of his 2014-15 season (along with games), to make their eventual non-inclusion a bit of an head-scratcher.
Unless PK wins another Norris or avg 60 points a season for the next 10 years I don't see a HOF for him. Is Burns and Byflugin HOF worthy? Keith Yandle?

Letang IMHO is ahead of PK and would get in before him. 3 cups and they are both close in points.

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07-17-2017, 10:51 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by scrubadam View Post
Unless PK wins another Norris or avg 60 points a season for the next 10 years I don't see a HOF for him. Is Burns and Byflugin HOF worthy? Keith Yandle?

Letang IMHO is ahead of PK and would get in before him. 3 cups and they are both close in points.
One other 14-15-like season would nearly clinch it if he continues to add games. Not clinch it, but nearly clinch it.

The underlined is downright ridiculous and way above for actual mark of the HHOF. If that happens, it would put him solidly in the Top-20 D-Men range (at worst), right around Al McInnis territory. And McInnis is nowhere near the minimum a player has to achieve to make it.

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Old
07-17-2017, 10:59 AM
  #107
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I hate having to be the one who says this but, where's the LTIR option?

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Old
07-17-2017, 11:05 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by scrubadam View Post
Unless PK wins another Norris or avg 60 points a season for the next 10 years I don't see a HOF for him. Is Burns and Byflugin HOF worthy? Keith Yandle?

Letang IMHO is ahead of PK and would get in before him. 3 cups and they are both close in points.
Remove your Bargainbin colored glasses for a minute. If PK averages 50 points per season in the next 10 years, which is likely, he'll be in the top 30 all time for points by dmen.

Your Letang comparison is outright ridiculous as Letang has played with 2 generational talents who managed one of those 3 cups with Kris on IR.

Cups matter for the HHOF, but not that much. There are many inductees who haven't won a cup.

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07-17-2017, 11:19 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
One other 14-15-like season would nearly clinch it if he continues to add games. Not clinch it, but nearly clinch it.

The underlined is downright ridiculous and way above for actual mark of the HHOF. If that happens, it would put him solidly in the Top-20 D-Men range (at worst), right around Al McInnis territory. And McInnis is nowhere near the minimum a player has to achieve to make it.
Yes thinking about it again maybe 50 points is more inline. 500 points in the next 10 years.

Not sure about Al McInnis terriotry. If PK got 600 more points he would have 918 points. Al had 1274 a huge difference. It would put PK at 11th spot, but I can see him being bumped down as guys like Karlsson/Burns/Letang move up spots as well. But ya after thinking about it I don't see PK getting 918 pts.

We will see, as long as he is in Nash playing 2nd fiddle to Jossi I don't know what his chances are. Jossi gets 1st pair and 1st PP minutes in Nash so until Lav's changes that up its an uphill battle for PK.

OTOH Jossi might not be a Pred in 2 years when his contract is up. Will Nash pony up and pay him 9+ as well?

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07-17-2017, 11:24 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
Remove your Bargainbin colored glasses for a minute. If PK averages 50 points per season in the next 10 years, which is likely, he'll be in the top 30 all time for points by dmen.

Your Letang comparison is outright ridiculous as Letang has played with 2 generational talents who managed one of those 3 cups with Kris on IR.

Cups matter for the HHOF, but not that much. There are many inductees who haven't won a cup.
Ya 60 is a bit much. 50 over the next 10 years is more inline, but I for one not sure he can do that.

And Letang maybe played with Crosby/Malkin, but no one is taking anything away from Lafleur or Shutt or Dryden or any other habs greats that played on all star teams. Take away his cup from this year but he still was there last year and the 1st year they won. Letang also is right up there in points, is Pens 1 D and had a 67 point season while PK's best is 60 points. Also Letang gets written of because of Crosby/Malkin, but what about Playing in front of Price for PK? No effect? Seeing as Price is being compared to Roy/Hasek/Brodeur in this thread you would think that would help PK quite a bit, while OTOH Letang had to deal with MAF behind him for most of his career.

Buff and Burns are also right up there with points with PK.

Anyways I am sure this post will get modded soon enough Just as of now I don't see PK having a HOF career. He will need to dominate the next years to get there.

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07-17-2017, 11:26 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by scrubadam View Post
Yes thinking about it again maybe 50 points is more inline. 500 points in the next 10 years.

Not sure about Al McInnis terriotry. If PK got 600 more points he would have 918 points. Al had 1274 a huge difference. It would put PK at 11th spot, but I can see him being bumped down as guys like Karlsson/Burns/Letang move up spots as well. But ya after thinking about it I don't see PK getting 918 pts.

We will see, as long as he is in Nash playing 2nd fiddle to Jossi I don't know what his chances are. Jossi gets 1st pair and 1st PP minutes in Nash so until Lav's changes that up its an uphill battle for PK.

OTOH Jossi might not be a Pred in 2 years when his contract is up. Will Nash pony up and pay him 9+ as well?
Points aren't exactly the perfect measure of excellency for D-Men. If Subban gets 60 pts a year for 10 years, he's probably getting another Norris + 3 AST berths/Top-5 Norris placements + some other Norris solid support. And that would put him roughly where Al McInnis stands in the pecking order of D-Men. No D-Men with 2 Norris and 5 AST berths have been left off the HHOF, at any point. None will ever be. If Subban achieves what you're suggesting, he's not only making the HHOF : he'd be a Top-Tier HHOF'er.

And I haven't even addressed the pure stupidity of comparing points between 1982 and 2002 to points between 2010 and 2027.

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Old
07-17-2017, 11:26 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
I hate having to be the one who says this but, where's the LTIR option?
Isn't the team only allowed to go 10% over the cap with LTIR?

So even though he would come off the books when the season starts, the habs could never spend the full 10.5 due to that 10% rule.

Again I may be wrong and you can go over the cap as much as you want until the season starts but if the 10% rule is in place even at LTIR that restricts who the habs can sign going forward.

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07-17-2017, 11:32 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
Points aren't exactly the perfect measure of excellency for D-Men. If Subban gets 60 pts a year for 10 year, he's probably getting another Norris + 3 AST berths/Top-5 Norris placements + some other Norris solid support.

And I haven't even addressed the pure stupidity of comparing points between 1982 and 2002 to points between 2010 and 2027.
I agree that if PK avgs 60 points over the next 10 years he probably gets a few Norris's.

AST I don't count those these days since its generally a popularity contest followed by a team "having" to send a player.

Sure comparing points is not an exact science between era's. But even in PK's own era he isn't head and shoulders above his competition. He hasn't outscored anyone in any of his seasons, his best being the lockout where he tied Letang who played 7 less games. Every other season he was outscored by another Dman.

Is Bret Burns going into the HOF? What about big Buff? These guys score just as much as PK. And lets factor in the Price factor. PK had Price playing behind him for 3 seasons that give him a huge advantage.

Anyways I just don't see PK's 3 big seasons as HOF worthy. Burns and Karlson were better than him. To get into the Hall you need to dominate and I don't know if there was really 1 season he dominated so far.

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07-17-2017, 11:36 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by scrubadam View Post

AST I don't count those these days since its generally a popularity contest followed by a team "having" to send a player.
I was talking about end-of-season All-Star Teams. Those are indicative. No one remotely credible gives a damn about the mid-season all-star teams. And I'm generally very credible.

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07-17-2017, 11:41 AM
  #115
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I was talking about end-of-season All-Star Teams. Those are indicative. No one remotely credible gives a damn about the mid-season all-star teams. And I'm generally very credible.
Ok then I agree with you. Yes end of season ones hold weight. Mid season circus ASG hold no weight.

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07-17-2017, 11:48 AM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
Remove your Bargainbin colored glasses for a minute. If PK averages 50 points per season in the next 10 years, which is likely, he'll be in the top 30 all time for points by dmen.

Your Letang comparison is outright ridiculous as Letang has played with 2 generational talents who managed one of those 3 cups with Kris on IR.

Cups matter for the HHOF, but not that much. There are many inductees who haven't won a cup.
Current players Top 30 all-time defencemen PPG season: Karlsson, Letang, Subban
Current players Top 30 all-time defencemen PPG playoffs: Karlsson, Subban

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07-17-2017, 11:53 AM
  #117
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Koivu also did not have Lafleur and Shutt for wingers. No one knows what Koivu could have done on a decent team.
Jacques Lemaire got over 1.0ppg from 1971-1976 without playing with Lafleur or Shutt.

He only played with those two for his final three seasons in the league.

In 1974-75, Lemaire got 92 points playing with a slowing-down Yvan Cournoyer on RW and bottom sixers Murray Wilson or Glen Sather on LW.

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07-17-2017, 11:55 AM
  #118
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HHOF and number retired. He will own all the Habs' goaltending records when he's done and have a few more trophies as well as the Olympic golds. I don't see him winning a cup though unless we radically change things and I've been saying that we need to radically change since Patrick left and it hasn't happened yet.

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07-17-2017, 11:56 AM
  #119
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Originally Posted by No Team Needed View Post
Current players Top 30 all-time defencemen PPG season: Karlsson, Letang, Subban
Current players Top 30 all-time defencemen PPG playoffs: Karlsson, Subban
What are these numbers from?

PK sits at a career .64 PPG. Buff/Keith/Burns/Letang/Karlsson equal or above. Weber/Green/Shattenkir/Jossi/Yandle with .05 PPG.

PK also has .65 Playoff PPG. Gonchar and Yandle have .61/.62 are they HOF worthy as well?

As of yet PK has not lead any season as Point leader. His best is being tied with Letang who played 7 less games.

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07-17-2017, 12:05 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
- Geez, Shea Weber is, what, 32?

- There would be no shame in Price not having any cups with the teams Roy had infront of him; there's a reason why he won the CS in both of them
In 1986 he was the only reason Montreal beat New York Rangers.

However, in 1993 he got the Conn Smythe because the number of forwards and defenceman with a legitimate claim were so many it was not funny, so Roy was able to be slightly separated from the field. However, missing any one of Muller, Carbonneau, Leclair, Damphousse, Desjardins, Schneider and even di Pietro might have meant the Habs not winning the Cup. It was one of the most "team" wins ever.

The Buffalo series, Habs won every game 4-3 and Roy was definitely mortal in that series. He also played badly in the first two games of the Quebec series. True, he did not give up a goal in 10 of the 11 overtime games the team played, but in all honesty, the team dominated most of those overtimes due to the incredible depth up front, hence they were fresher than their opponents.

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07-17-2017, 12:15 PM
  #121
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In 1986 he was the only reason Montreal beat New York Rangers.

(...)
I was mostly talking of how good they generally were. The 86 Habs were a better team than the '86 Rangers, who wouldn't have made the playoffs with league-average goaltending (the Habs had a significantly better offense). The '86 Habs outshot the Rangers, and the Rangers also benefitted from very good netminding save for one game.

TLDR : No, Roy isn't the only reason why they won. Even if it can be argued that it was his finest playoff round in career.

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07-17-2017, 05:20 PM
  #122
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To preface this post, I am a massive Carey Price fan. But I am going to try to be as unbiased as I can.

I got through about 3 pages and couldn't stand all this negativity. Here we go.

First of all OLL, I originally thought he's not miles behind Roy and that I would prove it to you later in this post (Stay tuned for more details). We've sucked ever since he left. So if that's the case, Price's teams he played behind must have sucked, so what were Roy's teams? Just as sucky? Can't be according to that comment you made earlier in this thread.

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No way it's a huge hyperbole.

At the same age Roy had 2 Conn Smythe, 2 cup wins, 3 vezina, 4 jennings, 1 cup final.

Even if you take out team accomplishments by saying those habs teams were so much better than this one, Roy was the main guy behind those cup wins. Any other goaltender than Roy from 86 to 93 and I don't think we win a single cup. And if they don't win cups, then those teams aren't remembered as great at all.

In all of his years with the habs, what has Price done I ask you ? One great season ? That's it. I'm sorry but as Price's career stands... it's simply not worth a jersey retirement.

And this thread is further proof of how overrated Price is, and continues to be. What's funny to me is that in 10 years, Price has exactly 4 playoffs series wins. FOUR! And we're talking about jersey retirement ? Perhaps if we were some garbage expansion team.. but even then... that's setting an abysmally low standard. With Montreal's history? That would be unthinkable.

And the contract won't change that because by the time it would even be possible to retire his jersey, MB will be long gone. There won't be a "save face" incentive to it. Either Price will have truly achieved greatness like his fans think he can, or he won't, and there will be zero support for a jersey retirement once we see the end results.
To address all your points, at the age of 19, Carey Price won a World Junior Gold Medal, was named MVP of that tournament, was named Canadian Hockey League Player of the year, won a Calder Cup and was named the MVP (Jack A. Butterfield Trophy I believe). That has never been done before. Ever.

Now moving onto your point about the trophies, I want to address one thing: eras.

So looking at their first NHL seasons of their career for each (1984-85 for Roy and 2007-08 for Price) here are the facts of the league and themselves:

Patrick Roy's age: 20
Carey Price's age: 20

1984-85 NHL Season Goalie/Scoring Stats:

Total goals scored/against for all teams: 6531, 311 average per team
Team Goals Against Average (GAA): 3.8875
Total shots on goal for all teams: 51,240, average of 2440 per team and 30.5 shots per game average per team
Team Save Percentage Average: 0.876

2007-08 NHL Season Goalie/Scoring Stats:

Total goals scored/against for all teams: 6840, 228 average per team
Team Goals Against Average (GAA): 2.7805
Total shots on goal for all teams: 71,490, average of 2383 per team and 29.1 shots per game average per team
Team Save Percentage Average: 0.904

Therefore if we look at the increase in the league's GAA and SV% from Patrick Roy's rookie year, to Carey Price's, you will notice it's a decrease of 28.47588424437299% for GAA and an increase of 3.19634703196347% for SV%. Applying those same #s to Patrick Roy's #s to see what his stats would be like today, you have an era-adjusted GAA of 2.40 and an era-adjusted SV% of .903. Carey Price's GAA and SV% in 2007-08 season were 2.56 and .920.

Now some of you may think I'm cherry picking, but I have always believed for goalies that SV% is way more indicative of their play than GAA. Why do I believe this? Well 1) A goal vs. saves ratio is more indicative than the total goals allowed because who played better in a game, a goalie that allowed 1 goal on 20 shots vs 1 goal on 30 shots? The guy with 1 goal on 30 shots. Both have the same GAA (or close to each other) but the guy with 30 shots on him has a better save percentage.

So it is in my opinion that CP31 had a better rookie season than PR33.

Going season by season for Saint Patrick's first 9 seasons in Montreal as well as Carey Price's first 9 seasons (not including the 2015-16 year due to big injury) breeds the following:

1985-86 TEAM AVERAGE GOALIE STATS: 3.8875, .876
1986-87 TEAM AVERAGE GOALIE STATS: 3.6750, .878
1987-88 TEAM AVERAGE GOALIE STATS: 3.7125, .878
1988-89 TEAM AVERAGE GOALIE STATS: 3.7375, .877
1989-90 TEAM AVERAGE GOALIE STATS: 3.6875, .878
1990-91 TEAM AVERAGE GOALIE STATS: 3.4500, .884
1991-92 TEAM AVERAGE GOALIE STATS: 3.4750, .886
1992-93 TEAM AVERAGE GOALIE STATS: 3.6310, .883
1993-94 TEAM AVERAGE GOALIE STATS: 3.2381, .893

2007-08 TEAM AVERAGE GOALIE STATS: 2.7805, .904
2008-09 TEAM AVERAGE GOALIE STATS: 2.9146, .904
2009-10 TEAM AVERAGE GOALIE STATS: 2.8415, .906
2010-11 TEAM AVERAGE GOALIE STATS: 2.7927, .908
2011-12 TEAM AVERAGE GOALIE STATS: 2.7317, .908
2012-13 TEAM AVERAGE GOALIE STATS: 2.7292, .906
2013-14 TEAM AVERAGE GOALIE STATS: 2.7439, .909
2014-15 TEAM AVERAGE GOALIE STATS: 2.7317, .909
2016-17 TEAM AVERAGE GOALIE STATS: 2.7683, .908


Carey Price's Stats

2007-08: 2.56 GAA, .920 SV%
2008-09: 2.83 GAA, .905 SV%
2009-10: 2.77 GAA, .912 SV%
2010-11: 2.35 GAA, .923 SV%
2011-12: 2.43 GAA, .916 SV%
2012-13: 2.59 GAA, .905 SV%
2013-14: 2.32 GAA, .927 SV%
2014-15: 1.96 GAA, .933 SV%
2016-17: 2.23 GAA, .923 SV%

Patrick Roy's era-adjusted Stats

1985-86: 2.40 GAA, .903 SV%
1986-87: 2.32 GAA, .917 SV%
1987-88: 2.22 GAA, .929 SV%
1988-89: 1.85 GAA, .944 SV%
1989-90: 1.87 GAA, .943 SV%
1990-91: 2.14 GAA, .929 SV%
1991-92: 1.86 GAA, .938 SV%
1992-93: 2.41 GAA, .920 SV%
1993-94: 2.14 GAA, .933 SV%

To continue, by the time 2016-17 came around, Price has won, as stated by others, Vezina, Hart, Lindsay, Jennings.

By the same point in his career, Roy had an EXTRA 2 Stanley Cups, 3 Jennings Trophy, 2 of which was shared with Hayward, 2 Conn Smythes, 2 Vezinas.

So I was quite mistaken. I don't know what OLL's definition of "miles" but Roy is the better goalie. There is no question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ottawa View Post
The league was different because Roy went up against the greats in their prime. Gretzky, Lemieux, Yzerman, Sakic, Forsberg, Mogilny, Roenick, Modano, Bure, Federov, Lindstrom, Hull...shall I go on?

Roy is far and away better than Price, the trophies and competition prove that. The game today is so focused on defense that it benefits goalies, back then it was just based on offense.
I'll agree Gretzky, Lemieux, Roenick, Modano, partially Bure, Federov Hull, not Yzerman, Sakic, or Forsberg, Mogilny, Lidstrom,. But you forgot Teemu and Jags.

Why don't we compare that with Ovechkin, Malkin, Crosby, Toews, Kane, Backstrom. Am I missing anyone? I do agree that Price has played against inferior competition than Roy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ottawa View Post
That's what I'm saying, most of the name I mentioned can't be countered with today's NHLers.

I named you arguably all top 50 players of all time (and I left out do many other greats, the quality of completion Roy went up against was insane). Price's era has Crosby and Ovechkin. I'll even throw in McDavid even though he's the next generation of kids.
Quote:
Originally Posted by One Less Louise View Post
Sure guys like Mogilny, Roenick, Forsberg are about in the same league as current stars.

But guys like Bourque, Lidstrom, Coffey, Jagr, Messier, Sakic, Yzerman ?

And we're not talking about guys like Bure, Hull, Selanne, Niedermayer, Oates, Lafontaine, Hawerchuk who have had some great seasons.

I don't know if it's nostalgia but I can't help but feel the offensive talent in the league has diminished a lot over the years. Seeing Jagr as a 44 year old still finish 22 in scoring in 15-16...
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulD View Post
Price compared to Roy is like Richer compared to Lafleur.
This is a flawed comparison. Price compared to Roy is like some legend that has never won a cup, but won some awards to Lafleur.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfanatic89 View Post
Montreal has never retired a # of a cup less player. They won't start now.

Furthermore, it's blasphemy for some to even dare suggest Price was a better Habs goalie then Roy.
How many cupless former Canadiens have won Calder Cup, MVP of the AHL Playoffs, Vezina and Hart trophy, plus Lindsay, Jennings etc.

Jesus people, his # will be retired and he'll be in HHOF.

Quote:
Originally Posted by le_sean View Post
That's because Montreal had never gone a decade without winning a Cup, so it was pretty much impossible to retire a player without winning it all. Is it Carey's fault he doesn't have the Punch line to help him? Or a Robinson-Lapointe pairing?

And there's nothing in my post indicating he'd be the greatest goalie in franchise history, just that he would hold a lot of records, by a mile. But nice try.
He is going to be the greatest goalie in franchise history because he would hold ALL the franchise's goalie records.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfanatic89 View Post
There were others in the thread suggesting Price over Roy as Habs goalie. Didn't say it was you.

Bottom line is Price hasn't been a great playoff goalie. He's been outplayed by lesser tenders such as Bishop, Biron, Anderson.

He has no business getting his # retired unti he wins a cup. Otherwise, it's not happening.

If it means no future habs player gets his # retired for many years... so be it.

Nice try.
Price, as the Habs goalie, will be the best goalie in franchise history. Arguable due to eras and stuff but he will hold all the records.

Quote:
Originally Posted by One Less Louise View Post
The number of career wins is a result of factors such as precocity (or being rushed to the NHL by Bob Gainey), health, longevity, ability to play a high number of games every season and playing on teams that aren't bottom feeders. Whereas the criteria for retiring a Montreal canadiens jersey is excellence, especially playoffs excellence.

Also, you are counting your chickens before they hatch. Price has had a history of knee injuries, and he could also be run out of town halfway through his contract. Plus, I could be wrong, but I think the league is headed toward shared duties in net more and more as the quality of the backup goalies keep increasing in order to keep starters fresh for playoffs. Also, you're not taking into account some guys who are clearly on pace to challenge that #3 spot (Luongo, MAF, Quick, Lundqvist). And none of those names strikes me as legends, they're merely good players. Especially Luongo who is currently #5 all time. Is he the 5th best goalie of all time ? Not even a little bit. Based on their careers so far none of these guys would warrant a jersey retirement in Montreal IMO with the exception of Quick perhaps.

I just think number of career wins is a fairly insignificant criteria, especially if you consider that historically, some teams have played less games in a season. In some seasons, teams were only playing 70 games. And then if you consider the advent of SO wins... it gives even less relevance to this statistic.
This post is just

First off, Gainey didn't rush Price. He was ready. Also Price and St. Patrick started their careers in the NHL at the exact same age.

Secondly, knee injuries happen in hockey. Look at Markov. The guy is a beast at his age with his past injuries. Injuries mean jack **** to me.

Thirdly, you could be wrong? The guy gets run out of town. What, is Carey Price the Brian Burke Toronto Maple Leafs and falls off a cliff?



Quote:
Originally Posted by One Less Louise View Post
Why is it unfair ? Roy won a Smythe at 21, Ward won a Smythe at 21, Murray won the cup at 22 in his first playoffs. Brodeur went to the ECF at 22, then won at 23. Great players are often great early on. And some are claiming Price is great and deserves to have his jersey retired or will deserve it. So for the sake of this argument, it's certainly fair to bring that up.

But you're entirely right that expecting Price to carry that load at 20 was really unfair. Gainey was foolish. He thought that Price was a future great so he threw him in the fire expecting him to react like all greats before him. Obviously it wasn't fair at all to do that to him.
Ward wouldn't have one if Gerber was still in net or if Mr. Game 7 doesn't take out Koivu's eye.

Murray, playing in behind Crosby, Malkin, Letang, Kessel and others is the same as our team, right?

Roy same thing, look at his 86 and 93 teams, and tell me how much worse they are than Montreal's teams since Price has been on the team.

I disagree that Gainey was foolish to rush him. Price just came off a season of World Juniors Gold Medal, World Juniors MVP, CHL MVP, Calder Cup and Jack A. Butterfield Trophy (AHL Playoffs MVP). So how was he rushed? The guy was ready.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mario Lemieux fan 66 View Post
Price will get his number retired despite probably being unworthy. He will not win a Stanley Cup or a Conny Smythe in Montreal but i can see him maybe winning 1 more Vezina trophy.

I wouldn't retire Koivu number but if i have to choose between Price and Koivu, i would retire Koivu number. Price is not a special player but Koivu was special for Montreal.
Price is worthy.

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07-17-2017, 05:31 PM
  #123
le_sean
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Well I wouldn't go as far to say he will own ALL of the Habs goalie records. He won't ever have a career 1.78 GAA like Hainsworth. He'll be hard pressed to get over 75 career shutouts though I guess it's still possible.

Either way, he'll either be at the top or 2nd/3rd in every category, which is spectacular for a franchise that is known to churn out elite goalies.

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07-17-2017, 05:47 PM
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Looking at Price's career up to today don't see how any one can say he is HHOF worthy.

He had 1 great season, and 2 good seasons. Hasn't done much of anything in the playoffs (of course the excuse is the teams around him).

Jose Theodore won a Hart and Vezna should he be in the HHOF as well?

And goalie records today are like comparing scoring in the 80's. No one is getting 150 pts or 200 pts like Gretz these days. Just like in the past goalies weren't putting up these sv% numbers or these types of wins (thanks to SO and no ties).

Price is going to really need to turn it on for the next 8 years. Should a player go into the HHOF because they are always finishing 2nd or 3rd? Price won't win the Vezna every year but he will be in contention but is that enough? I guess with the way the HHOF is, longevity and big numbers sell. If Price keeps trucking along and getting 2nd/3rd place votes for Vezna he will get in. But then I got to look at a guy like Holtby/Bob/Murray/Rask as getting in as well. So far their careers are not that different from Price and an argument can be made that any of those guys are better than Price.

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07-17-2017, 06:28 PM
  #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scrubadam View Post
Looking at Price's career up to today don't see how any one can say he is HHOF worthy.

He had 1 great season, and 2 good seasons. Hasn't done much of anything in the playoffs (of course the excuse is the teams around him).

Jose Theodore won a Hart and Vezna should he be in the HHOF as well?

And goalie records today are like comparing scoring in the 80's. No one is getting 150 pts or 200 pts like Gretz these days. Just like in the past goalies weren't putting up these sv% numbers or these types of wins (thanks to SO and no ties).

(...)
1 great season and 2 good seasons??!?!?
For Christ Sakes, he has four Top-5 Vezina finishes!!!!

I don't know, but when I think of "Good Seasons", I think of... I don't know, 2011-12? That was good. Rookie season. That was good. No more, no less.


Last edited by MXD: 07-17-2017 at 06:34 PM.
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