HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > New York Rangers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Young Gem Dandy Impresses Renney

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
04-03-2006, 11:57 PM
  #26
BigE
Registered User
 
BigE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: San Francisco, CA
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,476
vCash: 500
I've watched him play for Finland at the last two world junior championships and also caught a game of him and that dominant line with Nokkelainen and Tukonen at the Under 18's before the draft. TSN shows all of this stuff.

People here are pretty keen - you're right - but they supplement what they can watch by reading scouting reports, articles, Q&As and listening to "experts."

BigE is offline  
Old
04-04-2006, 12:46 AM
  #27
JCProdigy
Registered User
 
JCProdigy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: I want what I want
Posts: 1,232
vCash: 500
Just an example where stats don't paint the whole picture: It's been talked about before but look at Prucha's stats from the Extraligue in the Czech Rep. At this time last year some people were asking the same questions about how come his stats are so low and why is he on a fourth line if he's so good etc...

JCProdigy is offline  
Old
04-04-2006, 02:17 AM
  #28
Radek27
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 5,179
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Radek27
If he is on a good finish team and didn't get the icetime he needed why didn't his agent request a trade to another finish team? Sorry but I have heard this excuse with this kid for the last 3 seasons............last year he had what 1 goal?

Radek27 is offline  
Old
04-04-2006, 02:24 AM
  #29
Kovy274Hart
Registered User
 
Kovy274Hart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Shaolin
Country: United States
Posts: 1,498
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Kovy274Hart
Quote:
Originally Posted by Radek27
If he is on a good finish team and didn't get the icetime he needed why didn't his agent request a trade to another finish team? Sorry but I have heard this excuse with this kid for the last 3 seasons............last year he had what 1 goal?

Again, those leagues are very different. Why you cannot understand that after all this time is amazing. Look at Robert Nilsson as example one. He didn't tear up the Swedish Elite League either. He sure is skilled and looks to have a bright future with the Islanders. Oh. He was also drafted in 2003. Not 2004 like Korp.

You have no patience. Let's see what he can do adjusting to a North American style game and rink. Now he'll get that chance. There is plenty of time.

Kovy274Hart is offline  
Old
04-04-2006, 02:52 AM
  #30
Ola
Registered User
 
Ola's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Sweden
Country: Sweden
Posts: 17,820
vCash: 500
Good posts all around. Robert Nilsson, Alex Steen and Petr Prucha among others are all examples of rookies who didn't score in Europe before comming over.

It would take time to explain why it is that way, you must understand how the game is built here. The short version of it is, all leagues in europe are extremely competetive in the sense that you can get eliminated from the league all together if you finnish bottom 2, which puts a ton of pressure on "GM's" and coaches. That combined with that TPS for example knew Korpikoski would sign with NYR this summer. If Marc Staal only would play one year in NY how well would we bring him along next year? Or would we sign a Rachunek instead? A kid in Europe have to win his spot with the outside factors against him, instead of the otherway around. If a kid in the NHL is playing well in some areas but are making some rookie misstakes and is unexperienced he will get the benefit of doubt. But in Europe its the other way around, the vet often gets the benefit of doubt over the kid. All this reflects on how a kid is used ect.

Something that also have been covered is the defensive system used here. In essence it can be said that it takes talent to play well offensivly but hard work to play well defensivly. Teams in europe have allot of time to practise and teams are keept together much much longer then in the NHL. These teams are extremely organized. Talent alone don't beat such organized D's, forwards lines must have chemistry and that takes time to develop. A don't think there ever have been a rookie in the SEL who have been top 10 in scoring, never.

Another issue is that assists aren't given out as easy. Only one assits when there is a rebound. For example Gretsky feeds Coffey who shoots and Kurri tip in the rebound, no assists for 99. In the SEL the 10th overall in scoring had 36 points in 50 games. Nobody scores close to the same amount as leaders in the NHL/AHL/CHL.

Ola is offline  
Old
04-04-2006, 12:12 PM
  #31
Radek27
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 5,179
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Radek27
My post was more directed at his icetime and role on his team rather than his point totals. For a kid taken in the first round I think he should be on a team that can use him in a bigger role rather than a checking/defensive player which seems to be what Korp's team is doing with him. I understand he has a military obligation to finish also, but again why doesn't his agent get him traded to another finish league team that could use him in a bigger role?

Radek27 is offline  
Old
04-04-2006, 12:16 PM
  #32
KreiMeARiver*
Have Confidence
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UES
Posts: 6,621
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE
I've watched him play for Finland at the last two world junior championships and also caught a game of him and that dominant line with Nokkelainen and Tukonen at the Under 18's before the draft. TSN shows all of this stuff.

People here are pretty keen - you're right - but they supplement what they can watch by reading scouting reports, articles, Q&As and listening to "experts."
Yeah I've just read so many bad scouting reports I have to actually see something before I believe it.

KreiMeARiver* is offline  
Old
04-04-2006, 12:18 PM
  #33
Levitate
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 21,031
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Radek27
My post was more directed at his icetime and role on his team rather than his point totals. For a kid taken in the first round I think he should be on a team that can use him in a bigger role rather than a checking/defensive player which seems to be what Korp's team is doing with him. I understand he has a military obligation to finish also, but again why doesn't his agent get him traded to another finish league team that could use him in a bigger role?
because it's unlikely that any team would have used him as such?

Also, and it might take a Finnish poster or someone who has more knowledge of euro hockey to confirm or deny this, but it seems like there isn't as much trading around of players like you suggest in those leagues. They seem to stick with their teams a lot of times regardless.

Plus you're asking us questions that we really can't possibly answer. We can't tell you what he or his agent or whoever were thinking. In the end, I wouldn't worry about it. He was a young guy who played in a mens league and learned defense, hard work and discpline from it. now he comes over to NA (and let's not forget he's not even 20 yet) where he can work on the other parts of his game

Levitate is offline  
Old
04-04-2006, 02:27 PM
  #34
Edge
Registered User
 
Edge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Sin City
Country: United States
Posts: 13,196
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hightide85
I didn't know he was Finish. I've played hockey all my life but have no idea of hockey life in Europe. I've been a die hard Ranger fan for 15 years, watching almost 90% of the games. Until I came here I didn't know how rabid people were about the prospects, and how they followed all of them and the leagues abroad. I've never seen the kid play in my life. How have the NA people here seen him? How do you follow these people so closely? And what would tell you this kid is good if his stats suck? I guess you have some weird satellite channels in Canada...cuz I sure don't have them here.

Is there some site where you can watch highlights of these kids? If so I'd love to see some. I feel like I just crawled out from underneath some sort of rock. You people are maniacs about this stuff lol.

I worked in the industry for a number of years, made connections, saw a lot, etc.

I suppliment what I still see with trusted opinions from people I know who still work in the industry.

That's in a nutshell.

I've been fortunate to have a career that has satellite feeds from around the world as well.

But with Lauri I've never heard a "Bad" report from a trusted source, so I don't know where that comes into play. I think everyone wanted him in a more offensive role but as other posters have pointed out the game is VERY different over there. The scoring system is different, the style is different, the culture and roles are different.

It's not like it is here in NA. Young players rarely demand to be moved and if they did their role would be just the same if not less as punishment. Mandatory Military obligations have an effect and you really can't go off bottom lines.

As you're relatively new to the prospect realm you'll learn to suppliment information, combine things and your opinions will evolve as well. You'll also learn there are no real right or wrong answers, just opinions that have varying degree of basis.

Like you'll rarely be able to give gurantees, but you'll be able to form valid arguments for your beliefs. That's really what seperates a lot of the more respected posters around here from the not-so respected ones. You'll learn who generally gives good info and who posts things that are a waste. But it's waaay more expansive than you'd ever think. I think you're in a good place to expand your knowledge though and you seem willing to keep an open mind.

Edge is offline  
Old
04-04-2006, 02:56 PM
  #35
Ola
Registered User
 
Ola's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Sweden
Country: Sweden
Posts: 17,820
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Radek27
My post was more directed at his icetime and role on his team rather than his point totals. For a kid taken in the first round I think he should be on a team that can use him in a bigger role rather than a checking/defensive player which seems to be what Korp's team is doing with him. I understand he has a military obligation to finish also, but again why doesn't his agent get him traded to another finish league team that could use him in a bigger role?
Don't know if it hurts him for the future all that much. Basically all Swedes and Finns have been through it. The game aren't Calgary/Anaheim "destructive defensive", you know flip the puck out and skate. Compared with the game on the smaller ice in NA teams are really organized and plays a constructive game with the puck, not necessary offensive puckhandling game. Like we play in NY, our best defense are when we are passing around the puck.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Levitate
Also, and it might take a Finnish poster or someone who has more knowledge of euro hockey to confirm or deny this, but it seems like there isn't as much trading around of players like you suggest in those leagues. They seem to stick with their teams a lot of times regardless.
Its much more now then before EU's Bosman ruleing, before that players never where UFA's and 15 out of 20 players played for one team their entire careers. Now everyone is a UFA when the contract expires because of the Bosman ruleing. Though teams are still keept together longer then in the NHL. Not all, but most teams have a very solid core of homegrown players.

Ola is offline  
Old
04-04-2006, 03:15 PM
  #36
007
Olympic nut
 
007's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Mannahatta
Country: Finland
Posts: 3,477
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to 007 Send a message via MSN to 007
Quote:
Originally Posted by hightide85
Is there some site where you can watch highlights of these kids? If so I'd love to see some. I feel like I just crawled out from underneath some sort of rock. You people are maniacs about this stuff lol.
You used to be able to see Finnish highlights can be seen on the site for the MTV3 TV show "Hockey Night," but these days you have to be in the EU in order to see them. Swedish state TV (www.svt.se) shows some highlights of the SEL, but I'll be honest, I haven't watched any since last year when Ola was posting clips of Lundqvist for us and Padawan was doing the same for Immonen.

I started reading HF about 4 years ago and this forum about 3 years ago. Since I actually started posting, I feel like my understanding of the entire game of hockey has increased 10-fold. I'll never pretend to be one of the 'knowledgeable' posters on this site, but as you read and post, you learn where to go to find the little nuggets of information. I think you'll also find other hockey leagues will become much more interesting to you.

Finally, getting back on topic, I don't think that it should be overlooked that the Korpedo is from Turku and that he's been playing in the TPS system for virtually his entire playing life. They've developed him into the player he is now. It's not like he can just pack up and demand a transfer. Why would TPS transfer him, anyway? They stood to get $100 000 when he signed with the Rangers -- no-one in Europe was ever going to pay them that much for him.

007 is offline  
Old
04-04-2006, 03:46 PM
  #37
Colorado Avalanche
Registered User
 
Colorado Avalanche's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Lieto
Country: Finland
Posts: 16,626
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Radek27
If he is on a good finish team and didn't get the icetime he needed why didn't his agent request a trade to another finish team? Sorry but I have heard this excuse with this kid for the last 3 seasons............last year he had what 1 goal?
Many key-players were injured last year (Lius,Alatalo, Aalto.. ) so he had his chance, but other youngsters just played better than him and he lost the battle for better icetime.. Makkonen,Aho and Virtanen all played better than him. He screwed it up, not coach or TPS..

He was big disappointment here. He was very highly rated prospect, but he did nothing special, what you would expect from player who has been drafted in the first round.

Hopefully he plays well in AHL and he becomes good second liner in NHL, but at the moment i just don't believe it. He's good defensively, he owns good speed and acceleration. He can also sometimes show some flashes about his offensively skills, but he needs to do it more often.

He has all the tools to become good player.

Colorado Avalanche is offline  
Old
04-04-2006, 04:41 PM
  #38
eco's bones
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Elmira NY
Country: United States
Posts: 12,748
vCash: 500
I think Ranger fans are particularly keen on following the progress of their draft picks and prospects and one big reason for that is all those frustrating years of buying this player and that player and watching it all backfire over and over again. We'd see other teams bring along their young or get high draft choices who'd turn into studs and it was envy in a sense. Many of our young players did not turn out the way we'd hoped. Often they were put in situations that stunted their growth as players. In any case the tide seems to have turned. The Lundqvist and Prucha picks right now seem almost unbelievable and the last couple of drafts have given us a plethora of players to talk about.

eco's bones is offline  
Old
04-04-2006, 07:38 PM
  #39
007
Olympic nut
 
007's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Mannahatta
Country: Finland
Posts: 3,477
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to 007 Send a message via MSN to 007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Color@do @v@l@nche
Many key-players were injured last year (Lius,Alatalo, Aalto.. ) so he had his chance, but other youngsters just played better than him and he lost the battle for better icetime.. Makkonen,Aho and Virtanen all played better than him. He screwed it up, not coach or TPS..

He was big disappointment here. He was very highly rated prospect, but he did nothing special, what you would expect from player who has been drafted in the first round.

Hopefully he plays well in AHL and he becomes good second liner in NHL, but at the moment i just don't believe it. He's good defensively, he owns good speed and acceleration. He can also sometimes show some flashes about his offensively skills, but he needs to do it more often.

He has all the tools to become good player.
Would you compare him at all to Sean Bergenheim?

007 is offline  
Old
04-04-2006, 08:24 PM
  #40
Its a PP Goal
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: NY
Country: United States
Posts: 320
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge
I worked in the industry for a number of years, made connections, saw a lot, etc.

I suppliment what I still see with trusted opinions from people I know who still work in the industry.

That's in a nutshell.

I've been fortunate to have a career that has satellite feeds from around the world as well.

But with Lauri I've never heard a "Bad" report from a trusted source, so I don't know where that comes into play. I think everyone wanted him in a more offensive role but as other posters have pointed out the game is VERY different over there. The scoring system is different, the style is different, the culture and roles are different.

It's not like it is here in NA. Young players rarely demand to be moved and if they did their role would be just the same if not less as punishment. Mandatory Military obligations have an effect and you really can't go off bottom lines.

As you're relatively new to the prospect realm you'll learn to suppliment information, combine things and your opinions will evolve as well. You'll also learn there are no real right or wrong answers, just opinions that have varying degree of basis.

Like you'll rarely be able to give gurantees, but you'll be able to form valid arguments for your beliefs. That's really what seperates a lot of the more respected posters around here from the not-so respected ones. You'll learn who generally gives good info and who posts things that are a waste. But it's waaay more expansive than you'd ever think. I think you're in a good place to expand your knowledge though and you seem willing to keep an open mind.
You're my source when I talk hockey with my friends.

Hope you don't mind lol.


Its a PP Goal is offline  
Old
04-05-2006, 02:27 AM
  #41
MaV
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 479
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Radek27
For a kid taken in the first round I think he should be on a team that can use him in a bigger role rather than a checking/defensive player which seems to be what Korp's team is doing with him. I understand he has a military obligation to finish also, but again why doesn't his agent get him traded to another finish league team that could use him in a bigger role?
Because players can't be traded in Finland. Teams are not allowed to tell the players he needs to play in another city. Ok, if Korpikoski wants to move then it is possible to move him, but other teams can't really trade anything back to TPS. Also, there is very little sense in making a trade anyway, since players are free (almost) to walk away after their contract ends. Some team that could use Korpikoski in higher lines would benefit nothing from trading a "better" player away for him: Korpikoski would just leave after the season anyway and the team would end up with a season of him instead of this "better" player. Teams do loan out players at times, but it's usually guys who have a longer contract with the original team. In that case both teams and the player can be seen to win something.

My guess is that Korpikoski wanted to stay in Turku and with TPS. Had he played better the icetime probably would have been there for him. Also, teams don't play that many games here (56 in regular season), and the traveling doesn't take that much time, so there is more time to practice. Practising is seen as improtant part of the development too.

Finally, I might add this: I don't think Korpikoski was THAT good in the first place anyway!

MaV is offline  
Old
04-05-2006, 03:43 AM
  #42
Ola
Registered User
 
Ola's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Sweden
Country: Sweden
Posts: 17,820
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaV
My guess is that Korpikoski wanted to stay in Turku and with TPS. Had he played better the icetime probably would have been there for him. Also, teams don't play that many games here (56 in regular season), and the traveling doesn't take that much time, so there is more time to practice. Practising is seen as improtant part of the development too.
Good point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaV
Finally, I might add this: I don't think Korpikoski was THAT good in the first place anyway!
Finlands best in the WJC... (IMO)

Ola is offline  
Old
04-05-2006, 05:38 AM
  #43
Padawan
Former power tripper
 
Padawan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Jyvaskyla, Finland
Country: Finland
Posts: 2,576
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaV
Because players can't be traded in Finland. Teams are not allowed to tell the players he needs to play in another city. Ok, if Korpikoski wants to move then it is possible to move him, but other teams can't really trade anything back to TPS.
Players can be traded in Finland but the teams must have the players permission for the transfer to happen. However, the trades are extremely rare in Finland. Just like you hinted there but other teams can trade a player for a player if both players want to move. These trades are just recently (few years) been part of the SM-liiga. Loans are much more common.

TPS had no reason the let Korpikoski go even if he wanted to (which I doubt) since there is much money involved when a players moves to NA. We're talking about hundreds of thousands (250k max) which is huge amount for a finnish teams to get from a player (player budgets are estimated from 750k euros to about 2,5M euros).

Padawan is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:55 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.