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Old
08-11-2017, 09:16 AM
  #26
Mess
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There was a rumour JVR + Leafs 1st in 2018 for Travis Hamonic before he was dealt to Calgary.

If there is any truth to that then JVR is available to a team willing to offer a younger Dmen that would improve the Leafs.

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08-11-2017, 09:28 AM
  #27
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JVR and other upcoming UFA Bozak, Komarov are needed by the Leafs to be successful this year. So unless immediate help comes back to help this year, I can't see any trades being made. The Leafs are in a win mode.

Next summer I can't see JVR being resigned. Some other other team will pay (overpay) for him. Leafs will have to fill with players maybe who still on ELCs to replace him. Kapanean? Grunstrom?

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08-11-2017, 09:30 AM
  #28
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I think that with the cap the way it is NHL fans and many managers still are behind on realising the value of letting a guy walk just to free up the cap space. Less and less can you move a middle to large ticket player for just picks. There is real value in letting guys walk and in some other leagues you even see teams pick up expiring contracts for assets just to get some cap flexibility. This isn't a big thing in the NHL but more and more I think we'll see teams just hang onto guys to maximize their value to the club and then let them walk to keep cap flexibility.

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08-11-2017, 09:31 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by howehullorr View Post
Looks like some believe that JVR has been "available" for some time then.

I'm curious and interested in what people think about why this deal has not been done yet? For those in this camp, what has been the reasons for the delay and the deal not getting done?

Just a question. I'm interested in the opinions.
I think - that Lou is picky - and I would argue for good reason.

I think one of the #1 things for most people who did not like the Kessel trade was that they feel that Dubas/Shanahan whomever just accepted bare minimum for a player of that caliber. (I'd go more into depth but i don't want to necessarily derail the thread with that).


Lou has done ...15 trades since he's been here.
the one that is noted that he didn't do - was trading PAP. apparently the only thing offered was a 2nd. I'm lazy and I don't want to research his numbers but at the time i think that SIMPLY a 2nd was too low. so he held out, (and he got injured) and no asset for him. (Grabner either).

It seems like Lou for the most part has a price in his head for the worth of a player - and doesn't mind letting them go if it's not accomplished (setting a standard that while he doesn't mind hockey trades, he's not going to 'give away' assets that should have a return that's justifiable)


He probably has a set value
(top 4 dman OR assets that can help the Leafs NOW - less project/development, more "let's go"). and the value that JVR does bring (60 points, net presence etc) is worth more than say a bevy of seconds, and a very very low first (because he's not going to a rebuilding team - even if they need scoring -so only teams chasing for a cup would want to take on a rental player).

and if WE are the team chasing for playoffs/deep run.
we save the hassle of moving him and keep him - which is palatable imo.

lou doesn't need to cave - nor should he because we don't NEED to move him. we WANT to.

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08-11-2017, 09:38 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daisy Jane View Post
I think - that Lou is picky - and I would argue for good reason.

I think one of the #1 things for most people who did not like the Kessel trade was that they feel that Dubas/Shanahan whomever just accepted bare minimum for a player of that caliber. (I'd go more into depth but i don't want to necessarily derail the thread with that).


Lou has done ...15 trades since he's been here.
the one that is noted that he didn't do - was trading PAP. apparently the only thing offered was a 2nd. I'm lazy and I don't want to research his numbers but at the time i think that SIMPLY a 2nd was too low. so he held out, (and he got injured) and no asset for him. (Grabner either).

It seems like Lou for the most part has a price in his head for the worth of a player - and doesn't mind letting them go if it's not accomplished (setting a standard that while he doesn't mind hockey trades, he's not going to 'give away' assets that should have a return that's justifiable)


He probably has a set value
(top 4 dman OR assets that can help the Leafs NOW - less project/development, more "let's go"). and the value that JVR does bring (60 points, net presence etc) is worth more than say a bevy of seconds, and a very very low first (because he's not going to a rebuilding team - even if they need scoring -so only teams chasing for a cup would want to take on a rental player).

and if WE are the team chasing for playoffs/deep run.
we save the hassle of moving him and keep him - which is palatable imo.

lou doesn't need to cave - nor should he because we don't NEED to move him. we WANT to.
Yeah its fine either way. We keep him or not. Lou seems like he sets a price stubbornly. Old school, good for him.

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08-11-2017, 09:43 AM
  #31
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If there isn't a deal in place for JVR that answers that RD hole, then you're better off keeping him for this one 'win now' year than trading him for picks/prospects IMHO.

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08-11-2017, 09:44 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ACC1224 View Post
Waiting for the right deal. There's no rush.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Nylund View Post
There's no big mystery here - these things take time, especially when there's no urgency.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mess View Post
There was a rumour JVR + Leafs 1st in 2018 for Travis Hamonic before he was dealt to Calgary.

If there is any truth to that then JVR is available to a team willing to offer a younger Dmen that would improve the Leafs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daisy Jane View Post
I think - that Lou is picky - and I would argue for good reason.

It seems like Lou for the most part has a price in his head for the worth of a player - and doesn't mind letting them go if it's not accomplished (setting a standard that while he doesn't mind hockey trades, he's not going to 'give away' assets that should have a return that's justifiable)

He probably has a set value
(top 4 dman OR assets that can help the Leafs NOW
Given the feedback, a couple of more questions:
  1. How long do we wait?
  2. Will we make a trade if we are in a playoff seed, or very close to a playoff seed around the TDL?
  3. There's definitely a bunch of young defenders playing in the NHL. It should be a pretty simple task to put a list together. Has Lou not already reached out to the teams with those young defenders he has listed? Would he not be proactive in his GM duties with respect to this?

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Old
08-11-2017, 09:49 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by howehullorr View Post
In a previous thread, I asked a question about JVR and whether the Leafs/Lou were shopping him.

So, I thought I'd make this a thread and ask for opinions on some questions:
  1. Is JVR being shopped (yes, or no)?
  2. If yes, what do you think the status is now, and why is it taking so long to find a trading partner to get the deal done?
  3. What did the Hamonic deal that did not go through tell us? Its a potential data point, but what is it telling us?

Thanks for all of your opinions & feedback.
Is JVR being shopped?

I believe that he is.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

If yes, what do you think the status is now, and why is it taking so long to find a trading partner to get the deal done?

Seeing as JvR has a LNTC the Leafs have limited trade partners which are further limited by team needs both for the Leafs and the trading partner. With the signing of Hainsey it is also possible that the focus is no longer a Dman who is game ready.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

What did the Hamonic deal that did not go through tell us? Its a potential data point, but what is it telling us?

Well first of all Travis Hamonic may have not wanted to come to Toronto, the second possibility is that the Isles were holding out for more and Lou being Lou didn't see the upside of the overpayment. My own thoughts are that while Hamonic would have been a good addition I don't think he was the guy that could put us over the top, he like Tanev is just not a dominant NHL Dman, the kind that can be the difference maker when he's on the ice. I believe that what the Leafs may be looking at is an expanded deal involving JvR, a current Dman not named Rielly or Zaitsev and a prospect not named Liljegren or picks, that gets the Leafs a difference maker on the blueline, a guy who will slot in for the next 4-5 years


Last edited by therealkoho: 08-11-2017 at 10:09 AM.
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Old
08-11-2017, 09:51 AM
  #34
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If he is not traded then we are going to lose him (as his next contract is going to be too rich and too long for us)

Please trade JVR and Bozie

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08-11-2017, 09:51 AM
  #35
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Hockey Buzz Eklund‏ @Eklund 56m56 minutes ago
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Jets Reach Out to Leafs Regarding JVR...Trouba?

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08-11-2017, 09:51 AM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by howehullorr View Post
In a previous thread, I asked a question about JVR and whether the Leafs/Lou were shopping him.

So, I thought I'd make this a thread and ask for opinions on some questions:
  1. Is JVR being shopped (yes, or no)?
    I would say no. To me shopped means going to every team and take the best offer whatever it is. I would say the Leafs will only move on a specific return.
  2. If yes, what do you think the status is now, and why is it taking so long to find a trading partner to get the deal done?
    I said no but it's not taking long because I believe he is not being shopped. The lines are open to call but there doesn't seem to be any concern or urgency to move him.
  3. What did the Hamonic deal that did not go through tell us? Its a potential data point, but what is it telling us?
    NYI did not want salary and wanted draft picks that perhaps the Leafs were not willing to give up. Also, Hamonic is now West and not on a rival team. Many reasons here.

Thanks for all of your opinions & feedback.
The possibilities are the same a before:

1. JVR plays the year and walks UFA
2. JVR plays the year and is re-signed
3. JVR is traded now or at the deadline

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08-11-2017, 09:52 AM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by howehullorr View Post
Given the feedback, a couple of more questions:
  1. How long do we wait?
  2. Will we make a trade if we are in a playoff seed, or very close to a playoff seed around the TDL?
  3. There's definitely a bunch of young defenders playing in the NHL. It should be a pretty simple task to put a list together. Has Lou not already reached out to the teams with those young defenders he has listed? Would he not be proactive in his GM duties with respect to this?
1. Depends on how well he plays. If he's blocking a spot for a better fit than they will take what they can get and move on.

2. See #1

3. I doubt there are a bunch available and for any that may be, JVR won't return them alone. I'm sure Lou is being proactive about getting a defence man whether it includes JVR or not. Why wouldn't he be?

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08-11-2017, 09:57 AM
  #38
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Again, we have no way to know what our brass is thinking so this is JMHO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by howehullorr View Post
Given the feedback, a couple of more questions:
  1. How long do we wait?
I would take the best offer before training camp starts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by howehullorr View Post
[*]Will we make a trade if we are in a playoff seed, or very close to a playoff seed around the TDL?[/LIST]
Depends. Weigh the best offer against how far we could go in the playoffs. For example, if the best offer is a late 1st and a late 2nd and we are playing well and could win the cup, we probably keep him. Anything less than a realistic chance at winning the cup though and I would trade him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by howehullorr View Post
[*]There's definitely a bunch of young defenders playing in the NHL. It should be a pretty simple task to put a list together. Has Lou not already reached out to the teams with those young defenders he has listed? Would he not be proactive in his GM duties with respect to this?[/LIST]
I'm sure he's looking into all possibilities as that's his job. I also don't feel like there's any urgency though as we're not quite knocking on the cup door and we have some very good prospects.

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Old
08-11-2017, 10:01 AM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by howehullorr View Post
Given the feedback, a couple of more questions:
  1. How long do we wait?
  2. Will we make a trade if we are in a playoff seed, or very close to a playoff seed around the TDL?
  3. There's definitely a bunch of young defenders playing in the NHL. It should be a pretty simple task to put a list together. Has Lou not already reached out to the teams with those young defenders he has listed? Would he not be proactive in his GM duties with respect to this?

well... you wait until he's no longer your asset. obviously.

and again. that's IF they want to move him.

they may not want to move him for a "young" defender. unless it's someone legitimately worth paying for (say a Pesce. to whom. I would). but they don't NEED JVR.

unlike Gary (not a shot, never a shot, Gary) I don't think they need to give him away. I mean I don't like him, and i'm over JVR - but i recognize what he can bring (a guaranteed, if healthy 60+ points), and that's hard to replace that. especially whene veryone wants to go. "Ooh health was the only reason why we did anything". depth is also important.

so if it was a one for one - then sure.
I don't want to give up the 2018 draft pick (its' a deep one i heard). so i'd just go

keep JVR (the asset)
gain cap space/contract slot


call it a day.

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08-11-2017, 10:01 AM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trapper View Post
The possibilities are the same a before:

1. JVR plays the year and walks UFA
2. JVR plays the year and is re-signed
3. JVR is traded now or at the deadline
#1 or 2 would be big mistakes

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08-11-2017, 10:07 AM
  #41
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#1 or 2 would be big mistakes
no, they are not.

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08-11-2017, 10:10 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Fogelhund View Post
Hockey Buzz Eklund‏ @Eklund 56m56 minutes ago
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Jets Reach Out to Leafs Regarding JVR...Trouba?
Nah, must be Laine.

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08-11-2017, 10:14 AM
  #43
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I don't think he's being shopped, but I think they are looking to strengthen our defense and they are open to JVR being a piece used to achieve that.

I'm worried of the Hamonic deal because everything I've read about him points to him not being a difference-maker in a team's top four. Last season was abysmal for him, but even when looking at what came before that he tends to show up as rather mediocre compared to his reputation. That's my main takeaway from that deal. Along with Marleau and Moore, the attempted Hamonic trade shows them targeting players that are not what they used to be, or what they are thought to be in Hamonic's case.



If we keep JVR around somehow, that means we lose Gardiner. Athletic had an article outlining how our cap situation looks going forward, and it worked out if we could continue to push our young talent into the lineup while JVR and Bozak left. Unless Dermott takes two more big steps in his development, we don't have a replacement for Gardiner. We do for JVR. I don't think there's a good way to keep him that doesn't come back to bite us.
The athletic strikes again with poor analysis. Who is our replacement for JVR? We have as much of a replacement for Gardiner as we do JVR.

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08-11-2017, 10:18 AM
  #44
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no, they are not.
It's been beaten to death, but it would be terrible asset management to let him walk, and he'll be too expensive to re-sign.
We're not winning the Cup this year, and I realize you don't like absolutes, but JVR wouldn't be a difference maker one way or another anyway.

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08-11-2017, 10:18 AM
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The athletic strikes again with poor analysis. Who is our replacement for JVR? We have as much of a replacement for Gardiner as we do JVR.
Did you read the article then, as you are so quick to pass judgement? I'd be happy to hear why their analysis of our cap situation was so wrong.

Do we need to get over this again. We have tons of scoring wingers with high upside, some of them at a level that usually means good production if given ice time. We have one potential replacement for Gardiner, and he's further off.

I don't see how you could possibly think they are equally replaceable.

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08-11-2017, 10:18 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by howehullorr View Post
Given the feedback, a couple of more questions:
  1. How long do we wait?
  2. Will we make a trade if we are in a playoff seed, or very close to a playoff seed around the TDL?
  3. There's definitely a bunch of young defenders playing in the NHL. It should be a pretty simple task to put a list together. Has Lou not already reached out to the teams with those young defenders he has listed? Would he not be proactive in his GM duties with respect to this?
I'm sure Lou has no idea he could reach out to teams to inquire about young D. He'll probably read this thread and now realize he can do that. So I would expect a trade within the next few hours.

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08-11-2017, 10:23 AM
  #47
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Probably JVR and Liljegren for Trouba. No way JVR is even the main piece in a Trouba trade. I'd take Vesalainen or Stanley and a few picks and move on.

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08-11-2017, 10:25 AM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fogelhund View Post
Hockey Buzz Eklund‏ @Eklund 56m56 minutes ago
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Jets Reach Out to Leafs Regarding JVR...Trouba?
Seeing as this popped up, its prompted me to ask this question again:

There's definitely a bunch of young defenders playing in the NHL. It should be a pretty simple task to put a list together. Has Lou not already reached out to the teams with those young defenders he has listed? Would he not be proactive in his GM duties with respect to this?

Using Trouba as an example, you would think he would be towards the top of the list that Lou complied (I'm assuming he's compiled a list for purposes of this discussion). Is it reasonable to expect that Lou would have already held discussions with the Jets on this potential trade?

And now, widen this concept to the other young defenders on his list. Would he have already explored the trading alternatives for the players he has on his list?


Last edited by howehullorr: 08-11-2017 at 10:30 AM.
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08-11-2017, 10:28 AM
  #49
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The possibilities are the same a before:

1. JVR plays the year and walks UFA
2. JVR plays the year and is re-signed
3. JVR is traded now or at the deadline
I agree, those are the "possibilities".

The objective of this thread was to gain feedback and people's ideas on what people think is happening. Even though there's inherently speculation involved, I was hoping that people would respond with their ideas and theories on what they think is happening.

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08-11-2017, 10:29 AM
  #50
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well... you wait until he's no longer your asset. obviously.

and again. that's IF they want to move him.

they may not want to move him for a "young" defender. unless it's someone legitimately worth paying for (say a Pesce. to whom. I would). but they don't NEED JVR.

unlike Gary (not a shot, never a shot, Gary) I don't think they need to give him away. I mean I don't like him, and i'm over JVR - but i recognize what he can bring (a guaranteed, if healthy 60+ points), and that's hard to replace that. especially whene veryone wants to go. "Ooh health was the only reason why we did anything". depth is also important.

so if it was a one for one - then sure.
I don't want to give up the 2018 draft pick (its' a deep one i heard). so i'd just go

keep JVR (the asset)
gain cap space/contract slot


call it a day.
I don't want to give him away, I want to trade him. One way to look at it is he walks as a UFA, isn't that essentially the same as giving him away (albeit it not for one more year)?

Interesting that you don't want to give up the 2018 pick (1st round I assume) as that is a valuable asset. Doesn't that imply that if could pick up a 1st round pick in that draft as part of the return for JVR that that would be a trade well worth considering?

He may be hard to replace as you say but we're going to have to replace him sooner or later anyway, why not get some assets for him while we can? If nothing else, those assets can be used to help find that replacement.

If we trade him for picks, we gain the cap space/contract slot the same way we would if he walks as a UFA.

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