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How much could NHL team pay for a European player?

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Old
08-16-2017, 02:44 AM
  #1
alko
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How much could NHL team pay for a European player?

There is some little compensation between NHL and Euro leagues. But the amount of money is not so big. If im correct, it is something about 200 000 USD for a player, that signed in NHL.

Now the question is, how rich are the NHL teams in reality? How much could (want) they go, if they want some Euro prospect? Or even more, if they want some Euro star.

Example. New York Rangers drafted goalie Igor Shestyorkin in 2014. He has a very good numbers in KHL. But he is signed now to season 2019/2020. Lets say, GM of Rangers desperately want this guy in his team in next season. How much could they pay SKA to buy him?

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08-16-2017, 02:47 AM
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They can't because there's no transfer agreement between the NHL and the KHL

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08-16-2017, 04:32 AM
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Yeah the NHL teams get away very very cheap. They have little of a bully system going on with the draft etc, the draft kind of take away the open market value of a player. Now the players are lock to the team, so why should they pay then, the player will not go to a different league or team anyway uneless the team agree on it.

But if there where no draft, no agreements between the leagues etc, but instead there where a open market like on football, where all teams in NHL fight over the best talents, then i think the transfer for the biggest talents under contract from europe could be massive. Maybe like 10-30m if not more for the biggest talents (that would have gone like top 3 in the draft).

But now NHL have the bully system in place where they take full advantage of them being the one league every player wants to go to (never understood why KHL mimic the draft system, it only works if you have the by far the best league, if not, a draft system only works against you).

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08-16-2017, 05:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alko View Post
There is some little compensation between NHL and Euro leagues. But the amount of money is not so big. If im correct, it is something about 200 000 USD for a player, that signed in NHL.

Now the question is, how rich are the NHL teams in reality? How much could (want) they go, if they want some Euro prospect? Or even more, if they want some Euro star.

Example. New York Rangers drafted goalie Igor Shestyorkin in 2014. He has a very good numbers in KHL. But he is signed now to season 2019/2020. Lets say, GM of Rangers desperately want this guy in his team in next season. How much could they pay SKA to buy him?
The whole structure of the NHL from an ownership/franchise would be thrown into chaos. Leafs/Rangers etc can spend a hell of a lot more for European talent than the bottom 20 teams in the league. The reason the NHL stresses that the buyout goes through the league is to avoid these teams exploiting this.

Say Rasmus Dahlin is in this new system, and Frolunda say they aren't selling him for a penny less than 15 million USD. That action probably makes him slip to Toronto, NYR, etc. In a league where the lower level teams control the owners bargaining position (as Bettman's base comes from retaining 23 owners who aren't massive spenders), there is no chance in hell that a system that allows the rich teams to bid against each other for top euro talent is feasible.

Now, if we throw that all out the door. If there was a kid who looked like the next McDavid, Toronto could throw probably throw between 50 to 75 mil at it. Especially, if you are getting prime years on an ELC. Other teams would have problems justifying much over 10, assuming the player is then signed to an ELC with max bonuses and has to re-signed in 3 years.

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08-16-2017, 05:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ulvvf View Post
Yeah the NHL teams get away very very cheap. They have little of a bully system going on with the draft etc, the draft kind of take away the open market value of a player. Now the players are lock to the team, so why should they pay then, the player will not go to a different league or team anyway uneless the team agree on it.

But if there where no draft, no agreements between the leagues etc, but instead there where a open market like on football, where all teams in NHL fight over the best talents, then i think the transfer for the biggest talents under contract from europe could be massive. Maybe like 10-30m if not more for the biggest talents (that would have gone like top 3 in the draft).

But now NHL have the bully system in place where they take full advantage of them being the one league every player wants to go to (never understood why KHL mimic the draft system, it only works if you have the by far the best league, if not, a draft system only works against you).
The whole reason the NHL draft exists isn't to bully the market, it has that effect, but it's there to create parity, similar to the salary cap. Remember, the NHL draft was implemented long before there was any real expectation of the NHL getting significant talent from Europe.

In Europe, this concept really doesn't exist. The UEFA doesn't pretend to have much interest in creating parity. The only caps that really exist are there to prevent something like Portsmouth or Leeds happening again and to somewhat Cap Oil Sheiks and Putin cronies from destroying the transfer market. Although, with Neymar transfer and City spending 130 million on Full backs, it's doing a bad job of it.

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08-16-2017, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alko View Post
There is some little compensation between NHL and Euro leagues. But the amount of money is not so big. If im correct, it is something about 200 000 USD for a player, that signed in NHL.

Now the question is, how rich are the NHL teams in reality? How much could (want) they go, if they want some Euro prospect? Or even more, if they want some Euro star.

Example. New York Rangers drafted goalie Igor Shestyorkin in 2014. He has a very good numbers in KHL. But he is signed now to season 2019/2020. Lets say, GM of Rangers desperately want this guy in his team in next season. How much could they pay SKA to buy him?
If it was allowed, I could see him drop $5 MM for him. Money really isn't the object for the richer teams. Maybe more, depending on how desperate he felt.

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08-16-2017, 09:06 PM
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Open Market

Quote:
Originally Posted by ulvvf View Post
Yeah the NHL teams get away very very cheap. They have little of a bully system going on with the draft etc, the draft kind of take away the open market value of a player. Now the players are lock to the team, so why should they pay then, the player will not go to a different league or team anyway uneless the team agree on it.

But if there where no draft, no agreements between the leagues etc, but instead there where a open market like on football, where all teams in NHL fight over the best talents, then i think the transfer for the biggest talents under contract from europe could be massive. Maybe like 10-30m if not more for the biggest talents (that would have gone like top 3 in the draft).

But now NHL have the bully system in place where they take full advantage of them being the one league every player wants to go to (never understood why KHL mimic the draft system, it only works if you have the by far the best league, if not, a draft system only works against you).
Open market would include European teams fighting for the same players and for North American players.

But this is not happening, nor will it happen. A few repatriations to the KHL, with the KHL paying overmarket for beyond best before date NA players and other European leagues overpaying for niche NA players.

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08-17-2017, 01:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Open market would include European teams fighting for the same players and for North American players.

But this is not happening, nor will it happen. A few repatriations to the KHL, with the KHL paying overmarket for beyond best before date NA players and other European leagues overpaying for niche NA players.
Euro leagues are already fighting for the same players, most SHL clubs are trying really hard to get back former players stuck in AHL.

Open marked would definitely help Swedish clubs tremendously since the clubs does not have an owner in the same sense that the NHL does and does not get any financial injections by some rich dude.

Getting paid for developing top tier talent would help immensely to be able to compete with talent going to KHL and other Euro leagues.

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08-17-2017, 03:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayuu View Post
Euro leagues are already fighting for the same players, most SHL clubs are trying really hard to get back former players stuck in AHL.

Open marked would definitely help Swedish clubs tremendously since the clubs does not have an owner in the same sense that the NHL does and does not get any financial injections by some rich dude.

Getting paid for developing top tier talent would help immensely to be able to compete with talent going to KHL and other Euro leagues.
This opens up another can of worms of what to do with the NHL entry draft and how do teams develop talent. As seen in professional soccer, big name clubs will start poaching youth players at a young age. For example, if implemented two years ago or so, some big name club is going to take Dahlin (just as an example) on as a 15-year-old in their academy. Similar to how Swedish football/soccer clubs never see big fees for players, because they tend to move on from their academy club very young age. Similar to what we have seen with Victor Lindelof going to Benfica at 17.

The soccer model just wouldn't be viable for the NHL for a bunch of reasons. The main one being the goal to create parity and cost certainty just fly in the face of an open market system.

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08-17-2017, 04:55 AM
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Originally Posted by 93LEAFS View Post
This opens up another can of worms of what to do with the NHL entry draft and how do teams develop talent. As seen in professional soccer, big name clubs will start poaching youth players at a young age. For example, if implemented two years ago or so, some big name club is going to take Dahlin (just as an example) on as a 15-year-old in their academy. Similar to how Swedish football/soccer clubs never see big fees for players, because they tend to move on from their academy club very young age. Similar to what we have seen with Victor Lindelof going to Benfica at 17.

The soccer model just wouldn't be viable for the NHL for a bunch of reasons. The main one being the goal to create parity and cost certainty just fly in the face of an open market system.
But it's only parity in the NHL, the NHL are the only hockey league that benefits from the system currently.

To be honest I don't really care how the NHL choose to split up the talent between teams, and I don't really mind that the top prospects go to NA either, it's the best league and of course that's the stage the prospects aim for.

What's frustrating is that the system as it is today doesn't reward the effort in developing these top quality players that will generate revenue for the NHL brand years to come.

Take Lias Andersson as an example, he signed a contract with Frolunda for two years in May and still may not even play a single game (Rangers doesn't want Lias to participate in preseason games to "stay fresh" for their camp), but what does Frolunda get as compensation for losing their 1C/2C for the upcoming two seasons?
0$ since the last 3 seasons he's been playing for HV71.

It would be fine with me if the current contract runs out and then Lias moved to Rangers, or that the Rangers payed up to null the contract he has with the team.

Maybe I'm just rambling and letting my frustrations out but this really waters down the SHL as a league, maybe it's because Frolunda tends to lose so many high impact young players each year..

But it makes me wonder if it's even worth for these team to have their academy's at all, it can't be a net positive deal for the SHL teams.

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08-17-2017, 06:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Mayuu View Post
But it's only parity in the NHL, the NHL are the only hockey league that benefits from the system currently.

To be honest I don't really care how the NHL choose to split up the talent between teams, and I don't really mind that the top prospects go to NA either, it's the best league and of course that's the stage the prospects aim for.

What's frustrating is that the system as it is today doesn't reward the effort in developing these top quality players that will generate revenue for the NHL brand years to come.

Take Lias Andersson as an example, he signed a contract with Frolunda for two years in May and still may not even play a single game (Rangers doesn't want Lias to participate in preseason games to "stay fresh" for their camp), but what does Frolunda get as compensation for losing their 1C/2C for the upcoming two seasons?
0$ since the last 3 seasons he's been playing for HV71.

It would be fine with me if the current contract runs out and then Lias moved to Rangers, or that the Rangers payed up to null the contract he has with the team.

Maybe I'm just rambling and letting my frustrations out but this really waters down the SHL as a league, maybe it's because Frolunda tends to lose so many high impact young players each year..

But it makes me wonder if it's even worth for these team to have their academy's at all, it can't be a net positive deal for the SHL teams.
Still the fastest growing segment of hockey is the development level. You admit that Frolunda continues to develope players - obviously happy with their financial return. True for developmental clubs throughout Europe. Do not like the return, shutdown and do something else.

The CHL, USHL, NCAA are looking to expand but lack arenas in potential regions. They would gladly pick-up the slack and do so already.

The NCAA does not get compensation for players leaving early for the NHL either, so other than the fan attachment to their team there is rational reason to deny the players involved the right to make more money.

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08-17-2017, 06:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Still the fastest growing segment of hockey is the development level. You admit that Frolunda continues to develope players - obviously happy with their financial return. True for developmental clubs throughout Europe. Do not like the return, shutdown and do something else.

The CHL, USHL, NCAA are looking to expand but lack arenas in potential regions. They would gladly pick-up the slack and do so already.

The NCAA does not get compensation for players leaving early for the NHL either, so other than the fan attachment to their team there is rational reason to deny the players involved the right to make more money.
Of course they are happy since they are use to not get anything.

I fail to see how the CHL, USHL and NCAA could expand to Sweden but please explain.

There's no pro-contracts in the NCAA right? In SHL there is.

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08-17-2017, 06:51 AM
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Of course they are happy since they are use to not get anything.

I fail to see how the CHL, USHL and NCAA could expand to Sweden but please explain.

There's no pro-contracts in the NCAA right? In SHL there is.
Expansion in NA.

The CHL, USHL, NCAA and prep schools in NA are accepting players from Europe.

Pro contracts in the NCAA - no, but then why hasn't Europe developed an NCAA model for hockey player development, prep schools? Effectively talented hockey players in Europe who value an education have to come to NA.

This is a sympthom of the core problem. The lack of a program covering all developmental options with career optimization for hockey players in Europe yet expecting to be paid as if such a program existed.

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08-17-2017, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Expansion in NA.

The CHL, USHL, NCAA and prep schools in NA are accepting players from Europe.

Pro contracts in the NCAA - no, but then why hasn't Europe developed an NCAA model for hockey player development, prep schools? Effectively talented hockey players in Europe who value an education have to come to NA.

This is a sympthom of the core problem. The lack of a program covering all developmental options with career optimization for hockey players in Europe yet expecting to be paid as if such a program existed.
Do you expect 15 year old's to move halfway across the world to chase a hockey career, I can't speak for the kids but it seems unlikely at that age.

My guess would be that Europe hasn't adapted to the NCAA model since there's no need for it, it's perfectly fine to play pro-hockey as a 16 year old here, there's no college hockey (not as official as NCAA) and there's no scholarships in great schools with high tuition fees that will vow you to come to their college for prestige.

There's hockey in school (if you get apply for it and are selected) until you are 18 and that's paid by government/SHL teams.
Most of these kids doesn't go to the NA after that, they end up chasing other carers or start in lower level Swedish leagues and might end up in Allsvenskan or SHL some day.

So the SHL teams pays for the coaching staff and 3 years of education and hockey practice for a whole team in each age category (U16/U18/U20) and the payoff is getting some players to the level that they break in to the pro-roster.

Now if the players end up leaving for NA I would think it would only be fair if there was some compensation for all these investments (currently the agreement between SIHF and NHL is 240k split between the clubs the players represented the last three years), and even more so if the said player is projected to actually carry a franchise and bring in lots of money to that franchise, don't you?

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08-17-2017, 08:19 AM
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Except

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Do you expect 15 year old's to move halfway across the world to chase a hockey career, I can't speak for the kids but it seems unlikely at that age.

My guess would be that Europe hasn't adapted to the NCAA model since there's no need for it, it's perfectly fine to play pro-hockey as a 16 year old here, there's no college hockey (not as official as NCAA) and there's no scholarships in great schools with high tuition fees that will vow you to come to their college for prestige.

There's hockey in school (if you get apply for it and are selected) until you are 18 and that's paid by government/SHL teams.
Most of these kids doesn't go to the NA after that, they end up chasing other carers or start in lower level Swedish leagues and might end up in Allsvenskan or SHL some day.

So the SHL teams pays for the coaching staff and 3 years of education and hockey practice for a whole team in each age category (U16/U18/U20) and the payoff is getting some players to the level that they break in to the pro-roster.

Now if the players end up leaving for NA I would think it would only be fair if there was some compensation for all these investments (currently the agreement between SIHF and NHL is 240k split between the clubs the players represented the last three years), and even more so if the said player is projected to actually carry a franchise and bring in lots of money to that franchise, don't you?
Except they do.

Check the Stanstead College Varsity roster, school is 20 minutes down the road:

http://www.stansteadcollege.com/athl...y-boys/roster/

Three players from Sweden, other countries as well. Check the varisty, prep and bantam teams as well. Young players.
2017-18 University of Denver hockey roster - two from Finland:

http://www.denverpioneers.com/sports...ockey-mtt.html

Seems there is a demand for the NCAA model in Europe.

As for the financial implication of SHL teams in the progam and model U16 /U18 / U20. Business decision. Doubt that the admission to the games is free. The food and beverages at the concessions are not free, nor are the souvenirs which are also co-mingled with the adult teams. So it is a profitable enterprise for the teams.

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08-17-2017, 08:22 AM
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Switzerland has quite interesting System to pay compensation to Clubs that develop players. So This is hyprid between Swiss Rules and my Personal opinion:

Imo the Clubs that draft/Sign a player should pay a annual Compensation to the Club (clubs) that developed Player A.
The Annual Compensation is Depending on what level Player A reaches. (NHL Regular, AHL, Maybe depending on Games played in certain leagues). This Annual Compensation will be Divided within the clubs (programms) Player A played in Junior A/B.

I have no clue what amount these compensations should be, but i think with this System good Youth Programms, Accademys would get rewarded and get annual compensations to boost these even more.
Plus the amounts the NHL would have to pay wouldnt shy them away and would be depending on The Success of Player A.

I hope this is comprehensible since i struggled to put this in words that are not my native language.

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08-17-2017, 08:33 AM
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Except they do.

Check the Stanstead College Varsity roster, school is 20 minutes down the road:

http://www.stansteadcollege.com/athl...y-boys/roster/

Three players from Sweden, other countries as well. Check the varisty, prep and bantam teams as well. Young players.
2017-18 University of Denver hockey roster - two from Finland:

http://www.denverpioneers.com/sports...ockey-mtt.html

Seems there is a demand for the NCAA model in Europe.

As for the financial implication of SHL teams in the progam and model U16 /U18 / U20. Business decision. Doubt that the admission to the games is free. The food and beverages at the concessions are not free, nor are the souvenirs which are also co-mingled with the adult teams. So it is a profitable enterprise for the teams.
Cool, didn't know it was a popular route, learn something new every day.

As you say, it's a business decision, it's the only decision available since it's the only format available, some SHL teams choose not to field a junior team but it's a minority.

There's about 300 people attending the U20 games, it's not even comparable to US college sport.

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08-17-2017, 08:47 AM
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IMO the contract total would be limitless and depend on the player.

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08-17-2017, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Mayuu View Post
Cool, didn't know it was a popular route, learn something new every day.

As you say, it's a business decision, it's the only decision available since it's the only format available, some SHL teams choose not to field a junior team but it's a minority.

There's about 300 people attending the U20 games
, it's not even comparable to US college sport.
Comparable to midget AAA in Quebec which exists to feed the major junior and NCAA options. Affiliations with schools, municipalities / regions sponsorships and filter down money make the category quite viable.

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08-18-2017, 02:19 AM
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Yeah the NHL teams get away very very cheap. They have little of a bully system going on with the draft etc, the draft kind of take away the open market value of a player. Now the players are lock to the team, so why should they pay then, the player will not go to a different league or team anyway uneless the team agree on it.

But if there where no draft, no agreements between the leagues etc, but instead there where a open market like on football, where all teams in NHL fight over the best talents, then i think the transfer for the biggest talents under contract from europe could be massive. Maybe like 10-30m if not more for the biggest talents (that would have gone like top 3 in the draft).

But now NHL have the bully system in place where they take full advantage of them being the one league every player wants to go to (never understood why KHL mimic the draft system, it only works if you have the by far the best league, if not, a draft system only works against you).
There will never not be a draft. But if the Euro leagues didn't want a transfer agreement, then the NHL would do the same thing they do with the Russians... wait until they're UFA's and then come sign in North America and the teams get nothing. Pretty sure that the other leagues know this... and thus this is why they keep signing the transfer agreements.

Ultimately the players will almost certainly end up in the NHL - simply because A) it's the best league in the world and B) it's where the money is. Won't mean much for some players, but considering that the average NHL salary is equal to most SHL team's total payroll it's enough that most if they're good enough will eventually come to the NHL.

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08-18-2017, 02:55 AM
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Cool, didn't know it was a popular route, learn something new every day.

As you say, it's a business decision, it's the only decision available since it's the only format available, some SHL teams choose not to field a junior team but it's a minority.

There's about 300 people attending the U20 games, it's not even comparable to US college sport.
Well, the kids have to pay 60K to attend a private school in the vain hope that it leads to a successful hockey career.

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08-18-2017, 03:11 AM
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There will never not be a draft. But if the Euro leagues didn't want a transfer agreement, then the NHL would do the same thing they do with the Russians... wait until they're UFA's and then come sign in North America and the teams get nothing. Pretty sure that the other leagues know this... and thus this is why they keep signing the transfer agreements.
You might want to pass that onto the NBA since they still pay the Europeans nicely to buy out the existing contracts.

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08-18-2017, 03:25 AM
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You might want to pass that onto the NBA since they still pay the Europeans nicely to buy out the existing contracts.
Don't buy out the contracts... the NHL teams do not buy out contracts from players in the KHL... they wait for them to become free agents, then come over for free.

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08-18-2017, 03:41 AM
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Don't buy out the contracts... the NHL teams do not buy out contracts from players in the KHL... they wait for them to become free agents, then come over for free.
That's fine, there is no issue in that regard.
But when a player has a contract with a team in SHL it should be honored.

I'd rather have young players sign short cheap contracts in the SHL cause they want to have the option to leave for NHL in a year then long contracts that doesn't mean **** since the NHL always have the option to void the contract.

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08-18-2017, 04:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Mayuu View Post
That's fine, there is no issue in that regard.
But when a player has a contract with a team in SHL it should be honored.

I'd rather have young players sign short cheap contracts in the SHL cause they want to have the option to leave for NHL in a year then long contracts that doesn't mean **** since the NHL always have the option to void the contract.
If there was no transfer agreement, the NHL would simply go the same route that they do with the KHL. They would still draft the players as the European leagues have no control over how a players NHL rights get determined (just like how the KHL drafts NHL/CHL players), and if the players want to stay over there, that's up to them. But the money is in the NHL and everyone knows it... which means ultimately the players will come to the NHL all on their own. They might stay in Europe for an extra year or three... but eventually - and sooner than later the good ones will come over. And when that happens, just like the KHL today, the European leagues will get nothing.

Now what's better... getting $200,000 a player and losing them at 18-22 or not getting the 200k and losing them at 20-23?

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