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Avs Proposals/Rumors/Free Agents 2017-18 Part IV

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Old
08-17-2017, 04:25 PM
  #51
McMetal
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If we do manage to trade Duchene for a legit top 4 LHD, we could actually be a decent team again. Fixing that hole would really help, and the addition of some young talent to the top six would probably end up giving us a few more goals too. Bednar would keep us from making the playoffs, and injuries could derail it too, but I don't think it's accurate to say that we will be in the basement no matter what we do.

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08-17-2017, 04:30 PM
  #52
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I read the waiver thing as he doesn't expect to be as awful this year, and a lot of guys get placed on waivers to start the season so he can grab an above average waiver pickup.

The fact he signed Tommy tomato whatever his name is shows he is in fact working.

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08-17-2017, 04:35 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by agentblack View Post
Yeah as much as we're ok with another throw away year (and honestly I'm not sure how I feel about that) I don't think the players or the so called "Core" however people wanna define them is gonna be too keen on getting curb stomped every night
I don't think they will actually. Personally there were plenty of Toronto and Carolina games that were fairly enjoyable over the last couple of years. I'm hoping for something more similar to that. There should be a lot of close games if Varly plays well. It won't be enough to have a winning record, but I don't think it will feel like a futile effort most nights.

There is a bit of a difference between young teams, and teams that just suck, even if they end up pretty close in the standings at the end. It's a fine line, but it's pretty clear to me how the organization views the team and their chances to compete right now.

They also likely know that a good portion of the fan base isn't going to be nice about it either. Which is probably why Sakic has pulled back from the public so much. They've climbed into the bunker I think.

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Old
08-17-2017, 04:36 PM
  #54
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Lol so what? None of that really changes the fact that it's another lost year, and the only reason to watch the team is going to be youth, and to see where we end up in the lottery. Nothing realistic was going to change that. The team could easily be much more watchable and competitive than last season, and still come in with a bottom three finish. Twelve points separated 29 from 23.

There is some wild narratives out there that something else could be done, or that they refuse to tank lol. I just think they refuse to admit publicly they don't give two ***** where they end up in the standings at the end of next season. They are coming about as close as they can by talking so much about giving prospects a chance.

Then there is the fact that so many fans have been screaming for a youth movement because of these very facts, and now that it's being done, there is some sidestepping going on in order to find more bull crap over the top negativity to throw at the wall.

I think in the end you missed my point, and for whatever reason that previous comment set you off.
Nothing remotely set me off. I've been making this point for a while, and objecting to you flatly making things up I never said is a pretty obvious reaction.


I'm not talking about how watchable the team is our whatever our fan experience is going to be / why we are going to watch / what for...that's really not what I've touched on at all. The fact that, as you said, they don't "give two ***** about where they end up" next season is the problem I'm touching on. Saying fans have been "screaming for a youth movement" and therefore now that they are starting a youth movement fan critique is just us sidestepping and finding "bull crap" to complain about is sort of foolishly dismissive, IMO. The idea that just sticking a bunch of kids out on the ice is a successful youth movement and everyone should shut up because they have got what they wanted - which is basically your attitude - is ridiculous. They need to run a successful youth movement, and that actually involves proper development, the right situation, and the right environment. Pushing Tyson Jost (and others) out into the NHL in an important role, just cause youth movement, and pushing a garbage defense out there because who cares, youth movement, and consciously icing another garbage team even while one player some thought would be a lifer just got burned out because of that, is stupid, which is my entire point and one I think you missed.


Losing and losing and more losing is just going to 1) create more Matt Duchene's, a risk that should be acknowledged. If they are bottom 3 and clearly out of it early on I expect Landeskog and probably Barrie rumors to hike up a level, just as the Duchene rumors did, and I expect guys will get sick of the whole losing, uncertain enviroment. 2) They might rush / overexpose kids who are going to be "raised" in a losing enviroment and an uncertain locker-room, which certainly isn't going to be doing any positive things for them. In my mind this team needs to be back where Roy had them, AKA with frequent wins, and a youthful, positive, and winning attitude, but Sakic sort of seems to not really care about what happens.


At the very least they need to add a proper top four defender before the season starts...I can't believe any GM could think what currently appears to be going on ice is going to be a finished product after a waiver pick up is added. I don't think saying that is me throwing 'negative bull crap' at the wall just because I enjoy being negative.

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Old
08-17-2017, 04:38 PM
  #55
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Yeah that basically confirms my line of thinking. Duchene will be back next season unfortunately...
Sakic is really trying to make this whole saga into one of the most heavily botched situations of the last decade...

I don't have many problems with the rest. I mean the Avs are doing a youth movement Avs style. Which means we won't fully committ to it and won't do anything to improve our chancesv at success. We are the glorious Avs afterall. Things will work out. We are awesome. No need to do proper asset management or make smart decisions. We will let this just play out by itself and it will be a success. I mean we won 2 cups...


I am very much in favor of a youth movement. I am happy that they don't seem to want to rush back to the bubble at all costs. That is the positive.

No problem with the waiver pickup plan.
Might be our best option given that we don't seem to have any interest in doing proper asset management and picking up a few vets that could be sold for nice value at the deadline...

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Old
08-17-2017, 04:40 PM
  #56
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If we were going to pluck someone essentially for free from Vegas it should've been Marc Methot 2 months ago

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08-17-2017, 04:57 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Avs44 View Post
Nothing remotely set me off. I've been making this point for a while, and objecting to you flatly making things up I never said is a pretty obvious reaction.


I'm not talking about how watchable the team is our whatever our fan experience is going to be / why we are going to watch / what for...that's really not what I've touched on at all. The fact that, as you said, they don't "give two ***** about where they end up" next season is the problem I'm touching on. Saying fans have been "screaming for a youth movement" and therefore now that they are starting a youth movement fan critique is just us sidestepping and finding "bull crap" to complain about is sort of foolishly dismissive, IMO. The idea that just sticking a bunch of kids out on the ice is a successful youth movement and everyone should shut up because they have got what they wanted - which is basically your attitude - is ridiculous. They need to run a successful youth movement, and that actually involves proper development, the right situation, and the right environment. Pushing Tyson Jost (and others) out into the NHL in an important role, just cause youth movement, and pushing a garbage defense out there because who cares, youth movement, and consciously icing another garbage team even while one player some thought would be a lifer just got burned out because of that, is stupid, which is my entire point and one I think you missed.


Losing and losing and more losing is just going to 1) create more Matt Duchene's, a risk that should be acknowledged. If they are bottom 3 and clearly out of it early on I expect Landeskog and probably Barrie rumors to hike up a level, just as the Duchene rumors did, and I expect guys will get sick of the whole losing, uncertain enviroment. 2) They might rush / overexpose kids who are going to be "raised" in a losing enviroment and an uncertain locker-room, which certainly isn't going to be doing any positive things for them. In my mind this team needs to be back where Roy had them, AKA with frequent wins, and a youthful, positive, and winning attitude, but Sakic sort of seems to not really care about what happens.


At the very least they need to add a proper top four defender before the season starts...I can't believe any GM could think what currently appears to be going on ice is going to be a finished product after a waiver pick up is added. I don't think saying that is me throwing 'negative bull crap' at the wall just because I enjoy being negative.
Too much is made of the losing culture. As that seems to be where this conversation is going. Something at some point pulls a franchise out of it, and things can change quickly. Edmonton is now ****ing Disney land since drafting McDavid. What pulled Pit and Chicago out of their painful era and into the light? The right high draft picks in the right years. What pulled Columbus out? Youth, and a coach people thought was a crazy dinosaur that had no relevance in the NHL anymore.

Who says Jost will be rushed anyways? Who else are they rushing? Bigras? Compher? I don't see anyone being rushed, and I don't see the point of adding BS to the roster to let kids over ripen in the AHL. They have a bunch of young players that are actually NHL ready, and the free-agency class was a joke this off-season.

There has to be some balance of making use of the year even if the unsaid leads to a lost year in competition. It's just the way **** is in the cap era. I'd also argue that it's just where we are at at this point. They are staring down the barrel at no other way to get something out of this NHL season. I think the youth should help with the losing mentality as far as the older core players are concerned. They'll need to step into the veteran roles. Which brings up another thing people complained about with the new Veterans blocking out or giving an excuse for the older core not to take the lead.

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Old
08-17-2017, 05:02 PM
  #58
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I was ok with the being 10th worst and picking up good not super stellar talent and building a team that way until we start climbing the standings, like a gradual progression

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08-17-2017, 06:23 PM
  #59
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I wonder how much they are paying Sakic to pick up players off waivers and call him self a GM

Sakic is gonna do something that has never been done in all the history of all sports, he's gonna build a championship team from waiver pick ups

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Old
08-17-2017, 06:49 PM
  #60
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All three of Ghetto, Nieto, and Barberio are NHL-caliber players so I don't have an issue with waiver pick-ups if they're good. Ideally you want to get to the point where prospects can come up and take those spots and it looks like we're getting there but it's hard to do when you get absolutely nothing from rounds 3-7 for four straight years (11-14). You can make the case for a Bigras call up over Barberio though.

Again, I wouldn't mind another waiver pick up or two this year if they don't acquire D in a trade and feel like Greer isn't quite ready to start the season.

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Old
08-17-2017, 06:51 PM
  #61
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Let's not turn on each other guys - we are a community here.

Honestly, we have a darned good roster. All we need to do is get one more D-man like Franson, and it's quite a competitive roster, and you'd also have the ability to give Jost the ability (like ROR) to play INTO his role over time in a 3rd line capacity (less pressure).

Andrighetto - Mackinnon - Rantanen
Landeskog - Duchene - Yakupoov
Wilson - Jost - Compher
Nieto - Soderberg - Comeau

Zadorov - Johnson
Franson OR (waiver claim) - Barrie
Barberio - Mirinov

Varlamov
Bernier

(swap lines / pairings however you want)

and we will be watching a much more competitive, much more gritty, much more exciting team.

If you look at our waiver wire pick-ups to date, we have got some beauties. Also, how about the trade for Martinsen !.

X Nieto plays that left wing, 4th line role amazingly. While not saying much, Barberio was maybe close to our best D-man down the stretch last season.

Also, are people forgetting we have Mitchell from St Louis (proven winner)? A full time goalie coach. A guy like Wilson (proven winner) in the locker room?

There is also so, SO much potential in the team guys. Everyone is obviously lamenting that things "just won't work" because of history. There IS potential Rantanen could score 30. Everyone's just writing Yakupov off. What happens when he is offered an IMPORTANT, core role - he MAY turn things around. Soderberg MAY bounce back, and move up the lines. Zadorov MAY continue to improve. Varly MAY play extra-ordinarily now healthy. Bernier MAY bring some winning culture. Our new coaches MAY have a positive affect on the group. Andrighetto MIGHT continue to light it up with 29 & 96. Our improved depth in Grimaldi, Colborne, Bigras, Lindholm, Greer, Siemens & many others MIGHT be putting pressure on the top guys to perform. EJ MIGHT have a healthy season.

Have faith guys - there are so many things to look forward to. I also don't think I could bare seeing an argument on here either. We all love each other, because we have the same goal ! Avs Stanley Cup.

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Old
08-17-2017, 07:21 PM
  #62
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I think some of you are overreacting on the waiver comment. The way I read it was that he will look at waiver if the Duchene deal doesn't pan out and/or a player on waiver is a better option than Bigras/Lindholm/Mironov.

By the sound of it Lindholm will be at least a 7th/8th dman.

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Old
08-17-2017, 07:28 PM
  #63
agentblack
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Of course he should be looking at the waiver wire...just like the other 29 GMs running their teams. I dont think he's saying anything nuts here.

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08-17-2017, 07:30 PM
  #64
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Of course he should be looking at the waiver wire...just like the other 29 GMs running their teams. I dont think he's saying anything nuts here.
Not sure if it's fortunately, or UNfortunately for differing reasons, but we DO have dibs on them when they are made available.

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08-17-2017, 07:32 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by AllAboutAvs View Post
I think some of you are overreacting on the waiver comment. The way I read it was that he will look at waiver if the Duchene deal doesn't pan out and/or a player on waiver is a better option than Bigras/Lindholm/Mironov.

By the sound of it Lindholm will be at least a 7th/8th dman.
Worst case, I'm going:

Zadorov - Johnson
Barberio - Barrie
XXXXXXX - Mirinov

X = Lindholm, Bigras, or a smokey like Meloche / Siemens out of training camp.

So excited to see the kids.

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Old
08-17-2017, 07:32 PM
  #66
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I'd rather they look early on while they have the top priority and teams usually try to sneak semi-good through before the season starts. During the season I think they need to stick to internal options for promotions.

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08-17-2017, 07:34 PM
  #67
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I'd rather they look early on while they have the top priority and teams usually try to sneak semi-good through before the season starts. During the season I think they need to stick to internal options for promotions.
Would you like us to sign Franson TV? I think he could add quite a lot tbh.

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08-17-2017, 07:36 PM
  #68
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Not sure if it's fortunately, or UNfortunately for differing reasons, but we DO have dibs on them when they are made available.
Yeah its regrettably the one advantage of being horrid. We get first pick. So im hoping that one of the higher echelon teams will need to waive a guy cause of depth/team vision reasons and we take a look

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08-17-2017, 07:37 PM
  #69
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I'd rather they look early on while they have the top priority and teams usually try to sneak semi-good through before the season starts. During the season I think they need to stick to internal options for promotions.
My thinking as well.

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08-17-2017, 07:38 PM
  #70
agentblack
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I'd rather they look early on while they have the top priority and teams usually try to sneak semi-good through before the season starts. During the season I think they need to stick to internal options for promotions.
Exactly my thoughts too. Id have to think either CHI or WSH for fwds not sure who for D. its still early i guess

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Old
08-17-2017, 07:51 PM
  #71
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As far as the losing culture debate. I see both sides. I really do believe it's a thing and why I stress it's even more damaging in the ahl to constantly lose down there. But I get they have to start somewhere and pretty much any semblance of improvement will be trumpeted I'm sure. I'm reserving judgement to see the youth movement in execution. I don't want kids stuck in the NHL struggling but there needs to be much more free movement up and down if some need AHL time. No suddenly clogging all the roster spots with PTOs and one way contracts and making the roster stagnant again. If the kids can be successful and it looks like they are learning and improving in the NHL then not winning a ton is ok. If they are buried under a black cloud of dispair by December again then it is poisonous, but the AHL probably won't be a better situation then either.

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08-17-2017, 08:03 PM
  #72
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I'm not sure it's as damaging in the AHL because even if they lose, the player at the very least knows he belongs there and isn't overwhelmed. Whereas of they were in the NHL and not quite ready than they will be always a step behind the play. It's worse if you feel you can't keep up with the talent level than if you can't as a team win games. Most of these guys have been on losing teams before. Really none of them have been ineffective. That can cause confidence issues.

I'm not sure if this conversation is about Jost but a player playing early has more to do with mental maturity and levelheadeďness than skill. With Jost the only thing I worry about is his Frame. If he puts in the work in the summer to fix this I don't see how a guy as mentally mature as him will create longterm issues. That said I would prefer him to start in the AHL if he doesn't have a great camp.

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Old
08-17-2017, 08:06 PM
  #73
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I completely disagree but I'll step off the soap box. My point anyway is I'm just going to wait and see how the youth movement is going to unfold. It sounds good in theory but I'm withholding judgement.

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08-17-2017, 08:34 PM
  #74
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I'd rather they look early on while they have the top priority and teams usually try to sneak semi-good through before the season starts. During the season I think they need to stick to internal options for promotions.
From what I usually notice, the best players usually show up right after the season starts because some team tries to maintain its roster at a larger size and hold on to that player until the last moment either in case they need him or they fail to trade him or someone from injury gets healthy.

So I would say he'll show up likely just after the season starts within the first couple weeks but I'm not going back to do the actual research on it historically lol.

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Old
08-17-2017, 08:56 PM
  #75
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Looking at last year's waivers , there's some interesting names, other than Smith or PAP I don't think any of them did much...besides our darling Barb that is...Puempel had 6 g in 27 games, not bad.

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