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T: Flames no longer Pursuing new Arena

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Old
09-13-2017, 09:21 AM
  #51
BoldNewLettuce
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Generally it makes little sense for cities to pony up for a private business.

In Edmontons case it makes a little bit more than zero sense since the stadium was part of a larger development plan.

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09-13-2017, 09:23 AM
  #52
CantHaveTkachev
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although I do have to laugh at the fact we all thought Calgary's arena negotiations would be smoother since they saw how hard it took Edmonton to get one...they'd just learn from our mistakes

guess not

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09-13-2017, 09:37 AM
  #53
MoontoScott
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gord View Post
I like Bettman.
I wish he would go full WWE heel.

would have been great at that charity golf tourney in Calgary. Everyone having a good time, excited about the upcoming season. Then someone would having to say "uh-oh. That's Bettman's music!"
Well, I don't know what WWE heel is but I do know that Bettman has always spoken down to people as the privileged rich man that he is and I have had enough of his act.

Calgary has been very hard hit by the recession and in addition to the arena we are now facing an LRT expansion that is hundreds of millions of dollars over budget. Where is all of this new funding going to come from? Joe taxpayer- as always.

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09-13-2017, 10:00 AM
  #54
SK13
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Originally Posted by BoldNewLettuce View Post
Generally it makes little sense for cities to pony up for a private business.

In Edmontons case it makes a little bit more than zero sense since the stadium was part of a larger development plan.
Well.... sort of.

When there isn't a sports team to occupy the building, often the relevant government(s) will build one themselves to A) attract sports teams and B) support concerts and other events. The fact of the matter is the local governments subsidize a lot of things, and few of them generate as much tourism and revenue as an arena.

I hate the rabble-rousing that occurs whenever something like this comes up, because it always boils down to people who can't get past the idea that billionaires are profiting off of city funds, when they don't see that if this is done right, the CITY also profits. Which is why they'd do it on their own, eventually, if the Flames weren't there.

Now, it hasn't ALWAYS been a win-win. It has the be the right mix and the right deal. In Edmonton, no property taxes were spent. No money came out of infrastructure or schools. It had the right partners and the right designs to guarantee that it would eventually pay for itself. It is in the process of meaningfully redeveloping a part of downtown that has needed work for decades, and tbh, fell into disrepair because of mismanagement for city officials who clutched at their purse strings for too long.

Calgary can argue it doesn't need that like Edmonton does, but Calgary's downtown is in the early stages of trouble. Last year, it was reported that one third of their downtown office space could be vacant by next year.

Calgary, moreso than Edmonton, is dependent on the volatile and impermanent natural gas industry and could do well with some diversification. Edmonton didn't just build an arena for the Oilers, they're in the process of building a world class entertainment and shopping district which will redirect dollars from shopping centres at the center of pseudo-surburban neighborhoods to downtown where it belongs. The City of Edmonton profits from this as much as Darryl Katz does. Even cities like LA have benefited from this kind of district (see LA Live), and Calgary could as well.

People ask: "Why don't the billionaires just build it themselves". The answer is in modest markets, the profit margin doesn't justify the expense. They don't get to collect that higher property taxes from businesses in the area. A Casino can afford to build one right across the street from their world-famous Vegas hotel, but in a market like Quebec City (or Calgary), it's going to take some public dollars. It's unreasonable to say that CSE should spend ~20% of their collective networth on a building that will take decades to recoup it's cost - if it ever does. And again, Calgary would build it completely on their own if they didn't have a hockey team.

That being said, the Flames are going nowhere. This is merely public pressure on Mayor Nenshi (a vocal opponent of public funding for the arena) 5 weeks before their election. Eventually, they will come together with a public-private mix that is livable for both parties.


Last edited by SK13: 09-13-2017 at 10:08 AM.
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09-13-2017, 10:18 AM
  #55
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Couple interesting points coming out of this

-Surpised how bad both sides are acting when it comes to this. Seems like King wants a grand arena for his own pleasures and not considering anything else. The Mayor seems to have stuck his feet in. Edmontons negotiations for a downtown arena got ugly and this was to bring a much-needed arena downtown to rejuvenate the area. Calgarys situtation is already worse and the outcome is not nearly as beneficial as Edmontons. King either gets a average arena somewhere not downtown, or has to pay serious money to get one 1/5 as nice as Rogers

-There is an election coming up in a few weeks IIRC. This arena deal could influence the outcome of that election. Pretty crazy. Also interesting Bettman came out as said something to the effect of "Calgary fans if you dont like this, change it". Basically saying if you want an arena, the fans will have to vote in a mayor who will give hundreds of millions for it

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Old
09-13-2017, 10:20 AM
  #56
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I'm not sure if it will be Calgary, but eventually an NHL city is going to call the leagues bluff on this arena stuff, and find out the hard way that they actually weren't bluffing.

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09-13-2017, 10:22 AM
  #57
Mr Positive
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Originally Posted by Jimmi McJenkins View Post
Isn't Calgary due for Municipal elections soon? I suspect the Flames ownership is group is just planning to manipulate that process to get someone in office more conducive to what they're trying to do.
of course the timing is meant to coincide with the election, but that's not manipulation. Building an arena with public funds is a valid election issue, and the fate of the Flames is also a valid election issue. Anything that the voters might care about is valid. The only way that King's timing on this is scummy is if the arena really does not need public funds at all, but that is not established fact. The voters can decide on that one. It's easy to yell at the billionaire to pay for it all himself but there are likely valid economic reasons why that doesn't make sense for him. Rogers Place was not the first arena built with public funds included

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09-13-2017, 10:29 AM
  #58
Aceboogie
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of course the timing is meant to coincide with the election, but that's not manipulation. Building an arena with public funds is a valid election issue, and the fate of the Flames is also a valid election issue. Anything that the voters might care about is valid. The only way that King's timing on this is scummy is if the arena really does not need public funds at all, but that is not established fact. The voters can decide on that one. It's easy to yell at the billionaire to pay for it all himself but there are likely valid economic reasons why that doesn't make sense for him. Rogers Place was not the first arena built with public funds included
I actually think an election on this is the right way to go. Best would be some sort of referendum. Instead of rich owners and a mayor arguing over how taxpayer dollars should be spent, the people giving those tax dollars should be the ones having the say

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09-13-2017, 10:33 AM
  #59
Jimmi McJenkins
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Originally Posted by Mr Positive View Post
of course the timing is meant to coincide with the election, but that's not manipulation. Building an arena with public funds is a valid election issue, and the fate of the Flames is also a valid election issue. Anything that the voters might care about is valid. The only way that King's timing on this is scummy is if the arena really does not need public funds at all, but that is not established fact. The voters can decide on that one. It's easy to yell at the billionaire to pay for it all himself but there are likely valid economic reasons why that doesn't make sense for him. Rogers Place was not the first arena built with public funds included
I'm not trying to argue that, I complete agree that it should be, but by manipulation, a candidate coming forward shortly who's got solid financial backing and happens to be very pro-new arena.

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09-13-2017, 10:36 AM
  #60
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It would really suck to lose the Flames, but I think that something will get done in the next year or so.

That said, the players involved (Murray Edwards, Ken King, Naheed Nenshi) are all stubborn enough to let them leave town. A team in Seattle could be quite profitable with corporate sponsors, big sports town, large population, BC lower mainland/Vancouver Island, etc.

Although, if that were to happen, I'm sure that it wouldn't be long until we see the Calgary Coyotes.

The Seattle Coyotes makes more sense to me...

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09-13-2017, 10:45 AM
  #61
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Calgary doesn't need the development that Edmonton did, so they are not going to agree to a garbage deal like Edmonton did.

I think at the end of the day a deal will get done but I don't think it will be as bad as the Edmonton one.

If this was 10-15 years in the future and East Village was filled out, I think the West Village option would have been much more palatable.

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09-13-2017, 10:56 AM
  #62
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this is a public negotiation tactic that was timed exactly right. Seattle announces new arena. Our mayor came out a day ago and said part of his re-election campaign is to get a new arena built. Ken king comes right out and says you arent building a new arena with us the way you are negotiating and its all in public eye. Nenshi now has to show good on his promise to work to get the new arena on amicable terms or face that hurdle from opposition during the campaign. Its all a ploy and the flames will announce a new arena plan before the end of the season.

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09-13-2017, 11:06 AM
  #63
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Just feels like theres too much tension between Nenshi and the Flames for a deal to be done right now. Edmonton's arena deal never really got going until Mandel really took charge. Both sides need to put their egos and hard feelings aside and get down to some real negotiating. They don't even have a site agreed upon yet. Still a long road ahead for Calgary.

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09-13-2017, 11:08 AM
  #64
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Seattlepuck has a nice ring to it.
I wonder if they'd start a thread called Calgary is No Good: No New Rink, No Team.

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Old
09-13-2017, 11:11 AM
  #65
nexttothemoon
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Northlands opened in 1974.
Rogers Place construction began in 2014.

So that's basically a 40+ year timespan for replacement.

The Saddledome opened in 1983 so with a similar timespan for replacement... expect sometime around 2023 for construction to start on a new stadium in Calgary.

Is 6 years from now realistic for construction to begin? Probably.

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Old
09-13-2017, 11:11 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Aceboogie View Post
Couple interesting points coming out of this

-Surpised how bad both sides are acting when it comes to this. Seems like King wants a grand arena for his own pleasures and not considering anything else. The Mayor seems to have stuck his feet in. Edmontons negotiations for a downtown arena got ugly and this was to bring a much-needed arena downtown to rejuvenate the area. Calgarys situtation is already worse and the outcome is not nearly as beneficial as Edmontons. King either gets a average arena somewhere not downtown, or has to pay serious money to get one 1/5 as nice as Rogers

-There is an election coming up in a few weeks IIRC. This arena deal could influence the outcome of that election. Pretty crazy. Also interesting Bettman came out as said something to the effect of "Calgary fans if you dont like this, change it". Basically saying if you want an arena, the fans will have to vote in a mayor who will give hundreds of millions for it
I honestly think that most people in Calgary dislike the idea of super rich guys getting tax dollars for their arena's. Just out of principle, regardless of all the arguments (which are more questionable in this case than it was in Edmonton, as people have pointed out) of how it would help attract investment and possibly be a long term benefit and so on. Just on principle, it's wrong, especially when so many people are having a hard time now in Calgary and AB. I think this is all a win for Nenshi for the election.

It is funny seeing Bettman try his hand at influencing elections though, lol.

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Old
09-13-2017, 11:33 AM
  #67
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Lucky Edmonton got ours when we did. Now that all the moneys spent (or the credit card is maxed out) its going to be much more difficult for these guys.

http://www.calgarysun.com/2017/09/12...ena-in-calgary
like I said on the main board

passive aggressive statement

calgary will use one of Seattle, Houston, KC or Quebec as a threat

someone can correct me on this--but the flames were offered or it was suggested they needed to look at how the oilers built theirs and the flames rejected it--

my undestanding is the flames want to city-province-federal government to foot the bill--only to give the flames the keys to the arena and outright ownership

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09-13-2017, 11:47 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Gord View Post
I like Bettman.
I wish he would go full WWE heel.

would have been great at that charity golf tourney in Calgary. Everyone having a good time, excited about the upcoming season. Then someone would having to say "uh-oh. That's Bettman's music!"
Totally agree. Used to dislike Bettman until I realized he was just playing bad guy wrestler. It's hilarious how bad he gets booed when people should be booing the guys like Jeremy Jacobs. I wonder if he's an Andy Kauffman fan.

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09-13-2017, 11:48 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Weitz View Post
Calgary doesn't need the development that Edmonton did, so they are not going to agree to a garbage deal like Edmonton did.

I think at the end of the day a deal will get done but I don't think it will be as bad as the Edmonton one.

If this was 10-15 years in the future and East Village was filled out, I think the West Village option would have been much more palatable.
The Edmonton deal has worked out extremely well for the city. I don't know how anyone can stick to the line that it is a bad deal.

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09-13-2017, 12:02 PM
  #70
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Ah, I remember the days when flames fans were telling us that their ownership group would be a lot classier than Katz, and would never resort to typical sports team ownership tactics.

Pretty transparent attempt to try and sway voters against the current adversarial mayor in the upcoming election too. Can't help but admire how Katz not only got key political figures on his side before the real negotiation wars started, but also bought the land and had the designs kick-started to dictate where and what the arena's location would be to curtail the negotiations getting sidetracked into location arguments like the Calgary arena has been. I doubt the flames go anywhere as this is probably just a single step on a very long road of contentious negotiations for taxpayer money, but if it does get to the point that they are on the verge of moving though, I will offer the same sentiments the Flames organization offered Edmonton fans in the 90s when the Oilers were just about sold and moved to Houston, ie - I hope they move so the Oilers get to become "Alberta's team" instead just Edmonton's team


Last edited by Tarus: 09-13-2017 at 12:07 PM.
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09-13-2017, 12:15 PM
  #71
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The Edmonton deal has worked out extremely well for the city. I don't know how anyone can stick to the line that it is a bad deal.
The development has been good for Edmonton, but the deal will always be bad. Katz made out like a bandit.

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09-13-2017, 12:22 PM
  #72
Tarus
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Originally Posted by Weitz View Post
The development has been good for Edmonton, but the deal will always be bad. Katz made out like a bandit.
It's a negotiation for a large development, not a hockey game

Both sides are allowed to win.

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09-13-2017, 12:23 PM
  #73
Jimmi McJenkins
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The development has been good for Edmonton, but the deal will always be bad. Katz made out like a bandit.
Makes sense, was there another deal coming along to re-develop downtown?

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09-13-2017, 12:23 PM
  #74
Da McBomb
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The development has been good for Edmonton, but the deal will always be bad. Katz made out like a bandit.
Honestly, I don't really care that Katz made out like a bandit. Thats one of the last things on my mind when I'm watching the Oilers in the beautiful new arena. Its just exciting to see all the development in downtown and none of this would be possible without the arena deal.

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09-13-2017, 12:26 PM
  #75
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Perhaps the Flames Organization should scale back their plans a bit. Asking the City and taxpayers for 2/3 of 1.8 Billion dollars seems excessive no?

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