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Downey???

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Old
04-07-2006, 04:33 PM
  #51
Quiet Robert
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deandebean
You gotta admit: yesterday's dance was funny...
Yeah, I don't remember the last time I've seen two guys go around like that.




All in all though, like I've said before, Downey is a pretty good fighter, but he's been beat a couple times and he needs to get his confidence back. Even then, if he isn't knocking guys out, at least he's proving to be a valuable addition to the fourth line. He forchecks like crazy (something we haven't had in a while) and overall he just works his tail off.

If he can get a few decisive wins in his next few fights he'll regain his confidence. But again, as long as he playing well and working hard, he doesn't need to fight every game to be effective, just needs to step in at the right times.

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Old
04-07-2006, 06:10 PM
  #52
Bileur
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike8
I described the element of fighting later in the post. And Downey has fought. I'm not sure why you're persisting in claiming he hasn't. Last night was the exception, not the rule.
When else did he fight? Against Richardson? He didnt even throw a punch, that hardly counts. He did fight Roy which was solid but he also showed signs of dis-interest in that one as well, plus one fight in 21 games?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike8
And why do you insist on claiming that Downey's not a grinder? How is it clearly not true? Downey has been playing consistently on the grind-line in Montreal and has contributed to its success--in all three zones. So how can you possibly claim that it's untrue that Downey's been a good grinder in Montreal?
I'm not saying he's not a grinder, i'm saying he's a fighter. There's claims that he's in the same style as Begin and Murray which CLEARLY isnt true. I'm not saying he hasnt been effective in his role, I even said he's been good in it. Just that others could do as well or better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike8
1. Name a player that Montreal can call-up or players on waivers that provide the same effort, energy, and ability in all three zones who also add backbone to the line.

Pre-emptive response: Lapierre is a rookie who's played one NHL game. You don't throw youngsters with 1 NHL game as experience onto a line as vital to the success of the team as the grind-line. Not when the playoffs are about to begin.
Ivanans, granted, he isnt as solid defensively but the guy is clearly a better/more willing fighter and no one can deny the guy's effort. He'd also add backbone, size, and an intimidation factor.

Other guys that have been on waivers over the year include Boulerice, Doull, Oliwa, Lacouture, Orr, Wright etc..

Ideally they would have pickedup UFA Laperriere but since that didnt ork out I personally thought the habs should have made a push for Hordichuk when he was made available in Florida. Or maybe Fedoruk.

Lapierre showed a lot when saw him play at the rookie tourney where he was GREAT playing the "grinding/effort" game. I'd say he was as agitating as Varada used to be in his prime (that says a LOT). He didnt look to bad in his callup either, with time to play and practice he could be awesome by now. The playoffs we'rent about to start when Downey came in were they? Like I said at this point it would be stupid to mess with the lineup.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike8
2. Downey's role is not to be an enforcer. This was stated from the get-go when he came to Montreal. He has never been a heavyweight and never will be. He's frequently lost fights in the past. His role is to not only compete in all three zones, but provide hard hits and sand-paper. Essentially be a version of Begin, but with more willingness to fight. He's accomplished this.
Downey has been a fighter since he came into the league. The guy has consecutive 400+ minute seasons in the AHL. There is NO denying he's a fighter. When he came in they did talk about someone coming to protect their players and give them a hard nosed presence. He's been servicable but there is better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike8
3. Why do you insist on pushing the envelope with Downey when few if any other Hab fanatics are nearly as displeased with him as you are? This is mind-boggling to me, since posters on this forum find things wrong with players for the sake of it, yet he's received little criticism for last night and generally has been well-thought of on this forum. Yet you seem to think he's been more or less irrelevant here. Don't you think that it's within the realm of possibilities that you may be missing something?
Oh ok. "Look everyone thinks diffrent that you, you must be wrong." Solid argument. This is the HABS board. Most of the people on here are die hard fans who will defend players to the bitter end. Its no diffrent now. Go to the Sens board and say McGrattan isnt that good people will disagree. And its no secret that during a hot streak most players look good. Where do you come off saying i dont like him "for the sake of it"? I think i've made it clear why I think they should have gone in another direction. What does it matter if others are pleased. I'm voicing my dis-pleased opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike8
4. Whether Downey drops the gloves again this season or not is irrelevant as far as his contributions to this club are concerned.
I didnt say that either, I said it was unlikely that he would. Stop putting words in my mouth.


Last edited by Bileur: 04-07-2006 at 06:17 PM.
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Old
04-07-2006, 06:35 PM
  #53
Mike8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bileur
Ivanans, granted, he isnt as solid defensively but the guy is clearly a better/more willing fighter and no one can deny the guy's effort. He'd also add backbone, size, and an intimidation factor.
Ludicrous statement.

Ivanans is too slow to keep up with the line. He can't forecheck because he's immobile. He can't bodycheck sufficiently because he's immobile. He's decent defensively, but can be beaten one on one and can't recover if he's found himself out of position.

Ivanans is an enforcer. Downey's not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bileur
Other guys that have been on waivers over the year include Boulerice, Doull, Oliwa, Lacouture, Orr, Wright etc..
Boulerice, the same guy that Downey KOed earlier?

Lacouture's fine, but not as good a fighter as Downey. Wright would be OK, but he costs twice as much as Downey and wouldn't add the physical presence that Downey does.

Oliwa, Doull and Orr are one-dimensional enforcers that would have no place on a defensive checking line. So those suggestions are equally ridiculous to the Ivanans option.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bileur
I personally thought the habs should have made a push for Hordichuk when he was made available in Florida. Or maybe Fedoruk.
Hordichuk would have been ideal.

I like Fedoruk too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bileur


The playoffs we'rent about to start when Downey came in were they? Like I said at this point it would be stupid to mess with the lineup.
In other words: the point is moot and discussion irrelevant?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bileur
Downey has been a fighter since he came into the league. The guy has consecutive 400+ minute seasons in the AHL. There is NO denying he's a fighter. When he came in they did talk about someone coming to protect their players and give them a hard nosed presence. He's been servicable but there is better.
Yes. And he does more than just fight. He's not an enforcer--and certainly isn't pure enforcer on Montreal.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bileur
Oh ok. "Look everyone thinks diffrent that you, you must be wrong." Solid argument.
The fact of the matter is you're coming to the Montreal board to tell Montrealers how a Montreal player is playing. You're clearly uninformed and you're wavering left and right with your blanket statements and generally being an obnoxious twerp. Now I can't understand for the life of me why you would insist on behaving in this manner on a forum that's normally riddled with criticism for every player, yet the forum has been void of any substantial Downey-criticism since he got here.

That doesn't mean you need to fall in line and agree that he's fulfilled his role on the club, but you should stop and think that maybe there's a reason he has not been criticized and is generally appreciated and well-liked.

There've only been four players who have escaped the wrath of the forum: Markov, Downey, Higgins and Begin.

And now some fan of another team decides to come down here to post blanket statements and unsubstantial commentary on a player who's been just fine in Montreal, and claim that the Habs could do better with a 1-game-experienced prospect, or a goon that's proven unable to compete on a regular shift, or a number of goons or bottom-six forwards who cost more and do less of what Montreal needs.

Bottom-line: Montreal's checking line of Begin-Bonk-Downey has been superb down the stretch, and has consistently been the team's top line. Downey's contributed to that line and added a dimension to it--not one of an enforcer, but one of a hockey player.

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Old
04-08-2006, 01:37 PM
  #54
Bileur
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike8
Ivanans is too slow to keep up with the line. He can't forecheck because he's immobile. He can't bodycheck sufficiently because he's immobile. He's decent defensively, but can be beaten one on one and can't recover if he's found himself out of position.

Ivanans is an enforcer. Downey's not.
Do you know the meaning of enforcer? Look at Downey's record, his NSMHL, IHL, ECHL, AHL, NHL history, he's an enforcer. Plus Ivavans isnt as bad as you're making him sound, I remeber a few very resounding his on the forecheck in the beginning of the year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike8
Boulerice, the same guy that Downey KOed earlier?
Are you seriousely trying to use this argument? He got a punch in when J.B. was in a vulnerable position, it happens to the best of them. This season Boulerice has done well in his fights, handing a TKO loss to McGrattan. Not to mention the fact that Downey's been KO'ed a few times this year already.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike8
Lacouture's fine, but not as good a fighter as Downey. Wright would be OK, but he costs twice as much as Downey and wouldn't add the physical presence that Downey does.
Downey has one real fight. Lacouture could surely bring that, plus he's a far better player. IIRC picking up someone on waivers means the other team would pay half the salary. Hence Wright wouldnt be that expensive. Plus while his physical game may not be quite as good as Downey's he's also a better player.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike8
Oliwa, Doull and Orr are one-dimensional enforcers that would have no place on a defensive checking line. So those suggestions are equally ridiculous to the Ivanans option.
They are most definetley not as good players. But they are far better/more willing fighters which was my point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike8
Hordichuk would have been ideal.
I like Fedoruk too.
In other words: the point is moot and discussion irrelevant?
No, in other word AS I HAVE BEEN SAYING there are other options better than Downey that would not have cost too much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike8
Yes. And he does more than just fight. He's not an enforcer--and certainly isn't pure enforcer on Montreal.
He's playing the role he's been given but you're BY FAR overrating his "shot down" responsibilities and checking line status. He plays 5 minutes a game. Most of the guys I mentioned could easily do this as well, or play more mintues, including PK etc..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike8
The fact of the matter is you're coming to the Montreal board to tell Montrealers how a Montreal player is playing. You're clearly uninformed and you're wavering left and right with your blanket statements and generally being an obnoxious twerp. Now I can't understand for the life of me why you would insist on behaving in this manner on a forum that's normally riddled with criticism for every player, yet the forum has been void of any substantial Downey-criticism since he got here.
Again, you're posting useless crap that has nothing to do with my actual analysis. HOW AM I BEING OBNOXIOUS? I'm actually using arguments based on hockey instead of coming though with stupid comments about montrealers, and then brining in personal attacks. I'm not uninformed either as i've actually been paying attention to Downey and i've been watching many habs games as well. More than many "montrealers" i'm sure. All my friends are habs fans, my dad's a habs fans, I watch them almost as much as I do the sens.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike8
That doesn't mean you need to fall in line and agree that he's fulfilled his role on the club, but you should stop and think that maybe there's a reason he has not been criticized and is generally appreciated and well-liked.
No, you should watch the game and base your opinions on what you have seen, not the general consensus. Otherwise thats the point of even watching we could just tune into RDS to let them tell us what to think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike8
There've only been four players who have escaped the wrath of the forum: Markov, Downey, Higgins and Begin.
Does that mean that fans wont come to defend a player from criticism? No.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike8
And now some fan of another team decides to come down here to post blanket statements and unsubstantial commentary on a player who's been just fine in Montreal, and claim that the Habs could do better with a 1-game-experienced prospect, or a goon that's proven unable to compete on a regular shift, or a number of goons or bottom-six forwards who cost more and do less of what Montreal needs.
Blanket statements? Mike, I think i've been pretty precise in what i've been saying. If Downey is considered a grinder/agitator, there are players who can do better in this role. If he's to be considered a fighter, there are also players who can do better in this role. Who were also available for peanuts.

Who are you to say Lapierre wouldnt be doing better given the opportunity? He's got more talent, more abilities, more potential, willingness to learn, given the time, opportunity and linemates Downey's had Max could do as well. I've also shown you bottom six forwards/goons who could do more and cost the same as Downey, you;re just refusing to admit it. He only plays 5 mins, I dont see why you think he's some irreplacable cog in the habs org.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike8
Bottom-line: Montreal's checking line of Begin-Bonk-Downey has been superb down the stretch,
Agree. If you took the time to breathe and read my posts you'd see that i've said Downey has played well, just that I beleive others could have done better. The only aspect of Downey's game i've been dissapointed in is his willingness to fight. Given his type of player thats a large cog of his role and so while he's skated well, he's underracheived.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike8
and has consistently been the team's top line.
No. Maybe most consistent in what they bring, but not top line.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike8
Downey's contributed to that line and added a dimension to it--not one of an enforcer, but one of a hockey player.
No. You're talking him up as if his role is as important and useful as Begin's or Bonk's. Its not. He forechecks hard and doesent cost the team with stupid mistakes. Plenty of other players could do that just as well if not better.

You can quit graping at straws with the "you're not a fan of the habs crap" ever think this may just give me a diffrent/useful perspective. I woudlnt just offhandedly reject someone's opinion based on their avatar.

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