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Are injuries simply flukes?

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Old
10-30-2003, 08:22 AM
  #1
Mizral
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Are injuries simply flukes?

Was thinking about this last night.

This year, the Kings are once again doled out a ton of injuries to start the season. Allison & Deadmarsh are both looking like they won't be back anytime soon. A bunch of minor injuries. Hopefully Miller & Norstrom will be back tonight, but for how long?

Anyways, in contrast, look at whom the Kings play tonight, the Canucks:

The only injuries the Canucks have had that have caused players to miss games are Mats Lindgren (who would have only probobly played 2 or 3 games so far normally), and Brent Sopel (probobly only going to miss one or two games).

Are the Canucks doing something the Kings aren't? The Canucks don't ice a heavyweight fighter at the moment, but could probobly be called a bit 'tougher' than the kings right now, especially with Deadmarsh out of the lineup. Are the Kings cursed and the Canucks blessed? Are the Canucks players better conditioned over the Kings? Dumb luck?

What is it that causes the Kings to get all these injuries, and the Canucks to get very few?

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10-30-2003, 08:40 AM
  #2
LuckyLUC20
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I have no idea what to call it... but some of these injuries are flukie...

Brad Norton gets slashed by a skate in the arm in preseason... he ends up with an arm laceration and is out 3 months.

Jason Allison has 3 whiplashes in a span of 10 days... 10 freaking days! Before that he had a knee-to-knee collision with Andy Sutton from ATL.

Adam Deadmarsh suffers 2 concussions last year including a knee to the head by his own teammate (Craig Johnson, who is now with the Ducks)

Matty Norstrom who played every game last year for the Kings, gets injured the FIRST game of the season this year.

Jozef Stumpel... well, he's a softy.

Jared Aulin gets a shoulder injury from a fight. A freaking fight.

The rest of the injuries, I think you can argue that they have something to do with conditioning.

I seriously think the Kings are cursed.

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Old
10-30-2003, 08:51 AM
  #3
discostu
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I often wonder the same thing when you see a rash of injuries.

One thing to look at is the type of injuries that are being sustained. If there's a common thread, then there may be a logical reason. Perhaps the boards in the arena are a little stiffer? Maybe the conditioning staff aren't up to snuff, and are not properly diagnosing injuries early enough?

Usually though, I think it's just bad luck.

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10-30-2003, 08:58 AM
  #4
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Some injuries are definitely flukes. Some might not be though.

For instance, Ive always heard that groin injuries in the first month or so of the season can be attributed to poor off-season conditioning.

If a team was suffering from a rash of a similar type of injury then it would certainly be a red flag.

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10-30-2003, 09:01 AM
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Dr Love
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I think it's a little bit of everything. Part of it is bad luck, no doubt. Flip a coin a 100 times and call heads every time and you'll make out even. But you might get tails 26 times in a row, and think you're in a streak of bad luck, which is probably the case when a team gets a rash of injuries.

Part of it is conditioning though, some players are injury prone, their bodies are more brittle than others, and they need a different kind of conditioning, and some players are injury prone because of the style of game they play, such as Adam Deadmarsh and John LeClair, and thus they too need a different kind of conditioning.

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Old
10-30-2003, 09:28 AM
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Love
I think it's a little bit of everything. Part of it is bad luck, no doubt. Flip a coin a 100 times and call heads every time and you'll make out even. But you might get tails 26 times in a row, and think you're in a streak of bad luck, which is probably the case when a team gets a rash of injuries.
What if you can manipulate coin tosses, and have a "head" success rate of about 80%?




It's a little party trick I came up with.

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Old
10-30-2003, 09:46 AM
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Well, I do know that the Canucks are one of the best-conditioned teams in the league. I believe it's them and the Sens who are the teams that really pioneered the 'riding bikes after games' routine, which apperantly really helps. Though Naslund did have a minor groin strain to start the season (hasn't missed any games), I don't really recall many instances where we get those little 'groin strain' type injuries. Whereas it seems the Kings get them all the time.

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Old
10-30-2003, 09:47 AM
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by discostu
What if you can manipulate coin tosses, and have a "head" success rate of about 80%?




It's a little party trick I came up with.
Well if it's a party trick then you need to manipulate it to have a "tails" success rate of about 80%. Because as well all know "it's all fun and games until someone gets hurt. Then it's just FUN."

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Old
10-30-2003, 10:10 AM
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
Well, I do know that the Canucks are one of the best-conditioned teams in the league. I believe it's them and the Sens who are the teams that really pioneered the 'riding bikes after games' routine, which apperantly really helps. Though Naslund did have a minor groin strain to start the season (hasn't missed any games), I don't really recall many instances where we get those little 'groin strain' type injuries. Whereas it seems the Kings get them all the time.
I think that is a major reason why it's both conditioning and luck. Even the best conditioned athletes are not immune to luck. The Canucks could continue their conditining techinques for the next two decades, and I'd put money down that at least once over those two decades they'd go through an significant injury rash. Perhaps not to the extent of the Kings' woes, but an major injury bug nonetheless. One day, the Kings will be a healthy team, and some other team will get a bad case of injuries. You can't avoid luck.

But you can get lucky. Look at Cal Ripken Jr, he shattered the consecutive games played mark in baseball, and a lot of people act like it's a record that is up there with Hank Aaron's all time HR record or Pete Rose's hits record. Personally, I think it's the most trivial "major" record in baseball. Cal Ripken simply had the dice roll his way every day of his life. Don't get me wrong, he was a heck of a player, I'm not trying to take away from his achievements, just the pedestal that society put it on. Cal Ripken Jr never got hit by a pitch that broke his hand or wrist, he never severly sprained or twisted an ankle or wrist sliding into a base, never got hurt being knocked into by a baserunner trying to break up a double play or vice versa, never rolled over on his wrist and hurt it diving for a ground ball, etc etc etc. That's not talent that avoided all of that, that's not conditioning that avoided all of that, that was nothing but pure luck.

Marcus Naslund could be the most fine tuned athlete the universe has ever seen. But that won't mean a thing if a puck hits him and breaks his foot; or an errant stick hits him in the face and breaks his orbital bone; and many many other accident scenarios. And there are the guys that get injured off the ice/field, like Claude LaPointe falling down the stairs trying to avoid a cat, or Marty Cordova missing games because he spent too much time sun bathing.

As long as a player is well conditioned, they should be fine. One day, perhaps, the coin won't flip their way, but there's nothing anyone can do about it.

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Old
10-30-2003, 10:17 AM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Love
One day, the Kings will be a healthy team.
I will be looking forward to that day... but it seems like it will be a lifetime away.

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Old
10-30-2003, 10:22 AM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
Was thinking about this last night.

This year, the Kings are once again doled out a ton of injuries to start the season. Allison & Deadmarsh are both looking like they won't be back anytime soon. A bunch of minor injuries. Hopefully Miller & Norstrom will be back tonight, but for how long?

Anyways, in contrast, look at whom the Kings play tonight, the Canucks:

The only injuries the Canucks have had that have caused players to miss games are Mats Lindgren (who would have only probobly played 2 or 3 games so far normally), and Brent Sopel (probobly only going to miss one or two games).

Are the Canucks doing something the Kings aren't? The Canucks don't ice a heavyweight fighter at the moment, but could probobly be called a bit 'tougher' than the kings right now, especially with Deadmarsh out of the lineup. Are the Kings cursed and the Canucks blessed? Are the Canucks players better conditioned over the Kings? Dumb luck?

What is it that causes the Kings to get all these injuries, and the Canucks to get very few?
Some injuries are flukey, some are not.

A player taking a shot off the skate and breaking his foot, that can happen to anyone, and is more of a luck thing.

Injuries such as pulled hamstrings, groins etc. can be more of a strength, conditioning and flexibility issue.

Torn knees are usually the result of bad luck, a skate getting caught in a rut, etc.

Backs and head injuries often result from the type of game you play. Players like LeClair have a much greater risk of back injury than a player like Naslund. Then once you have a bad back, you aare much more likely to injure it again.

Head injuries often come from cheapshots, or not being smart on the ice and taking a wicked shot due to head being down (Lindros). Once you suffer that first concussion, you are much more likely to receive a 2nd and a 3rd etc.

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Old
10-30-2003, 10:31 AM
  #12
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I posted something on a similar thread. Basically, the gist was to get a new trainer and have the guys do some extra stretching. While some of these accidents are freaky, others are due to lack of conditioning. If thats incorrect, it never hurts to try . At the least, the guys will be more flexible and ready to go come gametime.

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Old
10-30-2003, 11:57 AM
  #13
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Pittsburgh has been the capital of flukie injuries the last couple years. Even in the off-season. Straka is the poster-child (breaks his leg, heals, breaks it first game back, heals, gets a stick to the face next time back, heals, hurts his back weight training in off season, etc...), also Rozsival, Melichar, Laukannen (hurt wrestling in the off-season, wrestling with what I have no idea -- never seemed the type to me), Jonsson (Hans was a big "vag", but his "infected elbow owwee" was definitely flukie). There were others I've forgotten, but you get the idea.

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10-30-2003, 01:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
Was thinking about this last night.

This year, the Kings are once again doled out a ton of injuries to start the season. Allison & Deadmarsh are both looking like they won't be back anytime soon. A bunch of minor injuries. Hopefully Miller & Norstrom will be back tonight, but for how long?

Anyways, in contrast, look at whom the Kings play tonight, the Canucks:

The only injuries the Canucks have had that have caused players to miss games are Mats Lindgren (who would have only probobly played 2 or 3 games so far normally), and Brent Sopel (probobly only going to miss one or two games).

Are the Canucks doing something the Kings aren't? The Canucks don't ice a heavyweight fighter at the moment, but could probobly be called a bit 'tougher' than the kings right now, especially with Deadmarsh out of the lineup. Are the Kings cursed and the Canucks blessed? Are the Canucks players better conditioned over the Kings? Dumb luck?

What is it that causes the Kings to get all these injuries, and the Canucks to get very few?
Who knows? Just ask any Blues fan and they'll be just as puzzled. They didn't have the projected opening day line-up once last year. Doug Weight had a couple of wacky injuries, Chris Pronger was out almost the whole season, Cajanek was hurt badly twice, Jamal Mayers was limited to 15 games, and almost the whole team suffered from some kind of food poisoning during the season.
This year, they started off with Eric Boguniecki, Dallas Drake, and Scott Mellanby on the sidelines. Drake and Mellanby are now back but Matt Walker, Alexander Khavanov, Al MacInnis, Barret Jackman, Petr Cajanek, and Christian Laflamme are all out along with Boguniecki (yes that's five defensemen).

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Old
10-30-2003, 02:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kubina_Fan
Who knows? Just ask any Blues fan and they'll be just as puzzled. They didn't have the projected opening day line-up once last year. Doug Weight had a couple of wacky injuries, Chris Pronger was out almost the whole season, Cajanek was hurt badly twice, Jamal Mayers was limited to 15 games, and almost the whole team suffered from some kind of food poisoning during the season.
This year, they started off with Eric Boguniecki, Dallas Drake, and Scott Mellanby on the sidelines. Drake and Mellanby are now back but Matt Walker, Alexander Khavanov, Al MacInnis, Barret Jackman, Petr Cajanek, and Christian Laflamme are all out along with Boguniecki (yes that's five defensemen).
and were still winning games

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10-30-2003, 02:02 PM
  #16
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also Mellanby was reinjured about 1 minute into the game.. i'm unsure of his status at the moment

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10-30-2003, 02:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Love
But you can get lucky. Look at Cal Ripken Jr, he shattered the consecutive games played mark in baseball, and a lot of people act like it's a record that is up there with Hank Aaron's all time HR record or Pete Rose's hits record. Personally, I think it's the most trivial "major" record in baseball. Cal Ripken simply had the dice roll his way every day of his life. Don't get me wrong, he was a heck of a player, I'm not trying to take away from his achievements, just the pedestal that society put it on. Cal Ripken Jr never got hit by a pitch that broke his hand or wrist, he never severly sprained or twisted an ankle or wrist sliding into a base, never got hurt being knocked into by a baserunner trying to break up a double play or vice versa, never rolled over on his wrist and hurt it diving for a ground ball, etc etc etc. That's not talent that avoided all of that, that's not conditioning that avoided all of that, that was nothing but pure luck.
I'm not the biggest Cal Ripken fan, and feel much the same way about this so called "record", but you are short-changing him. He got hurt *tons* of times. He just played through it (sometimes at the expense of his team you could argue). In a sport where guys go on the injured list for a week for a bruised pinky, Cal just wasn't made that way. Essentially, the guy was a hockey player in a baseball uni.

I often wonder if coaching has something to do with injury prone teams. The way they run their practices, the drills they do, whether contact is involved, how much and how hard they work the guys etc.

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10-30-2003, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zippy
Pittsburgh has been the capital of flukie injuries the last couple years. Laukkanen (hurt wrestling in the off-season, wrestling with what I have no idea -- never seemed the type to me)
Completely off topic but he hurt himself while playing floorball at Sami Salo's bachelor party.

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Old
10-30-2003, 04:01 PM
  #19
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LoL. Was that the final verdict? I always heard he was wrestling with someone. Your explanation probably makes more sense. Anyway, the Pens have so far been better off this year other than Rozy (what else is new?) but the two prior seasons were pretty bad for fluke injuries / repeat injuries. This year it seems to be LA's turn. Parts of last year too, obviously.

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Old
10-30-2003, 06:45 PM
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PecaFan
Essentially, the guy was a hockey player in a baseball uni.
Right. All baseball players are wimps. Remember when Bourque lost a tooth from a high stick a few years ago and missed 2 to 3 games? Mike matheny took a fastball to the mouth once, lost a whole bunch of teeth, and what did he do? Spat them out and took his base.

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10-30-2003, 06:54 PM
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish on The Sand
Right. All baseball players are wimps. Remember when Bourque lost a tooth from a high stick a few years ago and missed 2 to 3 games? Mike matheny took a fastball to the mouth once, lost a whole bunch of teeth, and what did he do? Spat them out and took his base.
Did I say all baseball players were wimps? No, you did that. Of course there are exceptions, Cal was one of them.

You can't deny that in general, hockey players are far tougher than baseball players, and play through injuries that sideline baseball players.

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10-30-2003, 09:10 PM
  #22
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Its probably already been said, but I think the schedule is too compressed.

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