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Old
10-30-2003, 09:53 AM
  #1
HotToddy
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We Need "D"

I am still of the opinion that Comrie should be sat for the year. But if he is traded then we need a stud D-man in return. I know everyone wants a flashy forward to replace MC’s scoring but our defence is severely limited. K-Lo has taken what was once a promising young D-Corp and depleted it for forward depth.

If you look at big trades in the past 5 years it astounds me how many big forward for d-man trades turned in favour of the team that got the D-man in the long run. How many people laughed when Burke traded Bure for Jovo and a bunch of flotsam. I know I did but you wouldn’t dare reverse that trade now from a Canuck standpoint, Jovo is a cornerstone. The same can be said for the Pronger-Shanahan deal. I watched Pronger play in his Hartford days and thought he was a stork on skates. When the deal was made all I could think was “what an idiot that Keenan is”. Again time proved me wrong. Other examples, Morris for Drury, Chara for Yashin (I don’t think anyone would trade Chara for Rashin now let alone throw in Spezza).

Your team is built from the net out. Good D-men are far more valuable than good forwards. A good Defensman eats up 30 minutes a night by himself and if a team has a 4 stellar d-men they are set. Look at the teams that have succeeded in past 10 years. New Jersey has been built around Brodeur, Stevens and Niedermayer. They had Daneyko in the mix and have added Colin White and Rafalski. There forward lines have come and gone but the core back-end remained. For Dallas the strength of the team has always been a good goaltender backed up by Zubov, Hatcher, Matvichuk and Sydor. Pierre Lacroix has understood this better than any GM in the league, he has traded Nolan, Deadmarsh and Drury, all of them great forwards, for back-end help.

I don’t know who the answer is or who is available. But when the trade is made I hope we hear names like Boyton, Colburn or Komisarek.

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10-30-2003, 10:04 AM
  #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotToddy
I am still of the opinion that Comrie should be sat for the year. But if he is traded then we need a stud D-man in return. I know everyone wants a flashy forward to replace MC’s scoring but our defence is severely limited. K-Lo has taken what was once a promising young D-Corp and depleted it for forward depth.

If you look at big trades in the past 5 years it astounds me how many big forward for d-man trades turned in favour of the team that got the D-man in the long run. How many people laughed when Burke traded Bure for Jovo and a bunch of flotsam. I know I did but you wouldn’t dare reverse that trade now from a Canuck standpoint, Jovo is a cornerstone. The same can be said for the Pronger-Shanahan deal. I watched Pronger play in his Hartford days and thought he was a stork on skates. When the deal was made all I could think was “what an idiot that Keenan is”. Again time proved me wrong. Other examples, Morris for Drury, Chara for Yashin (I don’t think anyone would trade Chara for Rashin now let alone throw in Spezza).

Your team is built from the net out. Good D-men are far more valuable than good forwards. A good Defensman eats up 30 minutes a night by himself and if a team has a 4 stellar d-men they are set. Look at the teams that have succeeded in past 10 years. New Jersey has been built around Brodeur, Stevens and Niedermayer. They had Daneyko in the mix and have added Colin White and Rafalski. There forward lines have come and gone but the core back-end remained. For Dallas the strength of the team has always been a good goaltender backed up by Zubov, Hatcher, Matvichuk and Sydor. Pierre Lacroix has understood this better than any GM in the league, he has traded Nolan, Deadmarsh and Drury, all of them great forwards, for back-end help.

I don’t know who the answer is or who is available. But when the trade is made I hope we hear names like Boyton, Colburn or Komisarek.
A promising young defense core that would cost the team right now over $13 million. The defense has not played poorly by any stretch of the imagination. The one thing that is happening is that every mistake the defense makes, the opposition is scoring on.

I mean, the Oilers have given up more than 25 shots in a game twice. Part of the problem is the penalty killing. The Oilers have 3 SHG's, and everytime they are on the ice, they are looking for another one... that cost them the 3rd goal against Calgary.

The Oilers problem has been bad mistakes, and the defense on every teammakes bad mistakes... it's whether or not they end up in your own net or not.

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Old
10-30-2003, 10:07 AM
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotToddy
If you look at big trades in the past 5 years it astounds me how many big forward for d-man trades turned in favour of the team that got the D-man in the long run. How many people laughed when Burke traded Bure for Jovo and a bunch of flotsam. I know I did but you wouldn’t dare reverse that trade now from a Canuck standpoint, Jovo is a cornerstone. The same can be said for the Pronger-Shanahan deal. I watched Pronger play in his Hartford days and thought he was a stork on skates. When the deal was made all I could think was “what an idiot that Keenan is”. Again time proved me wrong. Other examples, Morris for Drury, Chara for Yashin (I don’t think anyone would trade Chara for Rashin now let alone throw in Spezza).

Your team is built from the net out. Good D-men are far more valuable than good forwards. A good Defensman eats up 30 minutes a night by himself and if a team has a 4 stellar d-men they are set. Look at the teams that have succeeded in past 10 years. New Jersey has been built around Brodeur, Stevens and Niedermayer. They had Daneyko in the mix and have added Colin White and Rafalski. There forward lines have come and gone but the core back-end remained. For Dallas the strength of the team has always been a good goaltender backed up by Zubov, Hatcher, Matvichuk and Sydor. Pierre Lacroix has understood this better than any GM in the league, he has traded Nolan, Deadmarsh and Drury, all of them great forwards, for back-end help.

I don’t know who the answer is or who is available. But when the trade is made I hope we hear names like Boyton, Colburn or Komisarek.

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Old
10-30-2003, 10:11 AM
  #4
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But what contributes to those mistakes ending up in your net? A couple of things (at least) besides the goaltender...including the *quality* of those chances you give up. So far the Oilers' D (often with poor or little help from the forwards) are giving up a lot of high-quality chances, which means a high percentage of them are going in the net no matter who your goalie is. I'm not saying Salo's not at fault on any of them, but his odds are greatly reduced when the other team is getting 5-star chances off defensive mistakes.

I'm fine with the idea of building from the back-end out - we certainly have a number of options up front, but not that many on D at the moment.

Bart

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Old
10-30-2003, 10:14 AM
  #5
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From what I have seen, the personnel is not the problem. At least not on D. The Oilers have a solid set of defensemen, but they are playing a system that is not at all suited to their skills and size.

Guys like Smith and Staios do not have the best footspeed in the world and having them chase speedy wingers around is insanity and just asking for trouble. Brewer and Semenov (when he plays) and their long reach & big bodies are much better used stuffing up passing lanes and stopping cross-crease passes than mucking along the boards. Until the Oilers stop playing man-to-man all the time, the defense will continue to be task-saturated and exhausted by the 3rd period of every game.

It also does not help that Tommy Salo has been nothing short of brutal this season. Look at league-wide GAA and save percentage and you can not argue that point. Sometimes the defense screws up and needs the goalie to bail them out, and it is not happening right now. He's guessing where the shots are going, over comitting and boy does it ever show.

And finally, not a chance in hell would we give up either Komisarek or Hainsey for anything on the Oilers roster. Period.

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Old
10-30-2003, 10:23 AM
  #6
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What the Oiler's need on their back end is some poise and consistency. They have the personnel to do the job they are just playing bad. Brewer has been the worst player on the team bar none. He is logging 1st d-man minutes yet he continues to play the puck like a hot potato. He needs to be better. Smith and Staios have been acceptable, and imo Cross has been very good considering his skill level and d-partner (BRewer). The 5-6-7 guys are playing ok as well. Right now the problem with the team is scoring on the road, discipline with respect to penalties, and Salo not making that big save when he is needed. To me the team has the ability to be good without MC they just need to play much simpler and smarter.

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10-30-2003, 10:23 AM
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malefic74
It also does not help that Tommy Salo has been nothing short of brutal this season. Look at league-wide GAA and save percentage and you can not argue that point. Sometimes the defense screws up and needs the goalie to bail them out, and it is not happening right now. He's guessing where the shots are going, over comitting and boy does it ever show.
Nothing short of brutal? Yeah, actually I can argue that point. Salo hasn't been as sharp as he can be, but Brutal he isn't. Take a look at the Flames game... 2 cross-crease passes, and a tip in... no goaltender is going to stop those. Could he have stopped the breakaway, yeah... Goaltenders always have a chance on breakaways.

Quote:
And finally, not a chance in hell would we give up either Komisarek or Hainsey for anything on the Oilers roster. Period.
Are you sure about that? Because I guarantee your management would love a guy like Hemsky... but I guess I shouldn't water down your little "management" fact with common sense.

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Old
10-30-2003, 10:32 AM
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgbone
Nothing short of brutal? Yeah, actually I can argue that point. Salo hasn't been as sharp as he can be, but Brutal he isn't. Take a look at the Flames game... 2 cross-crease passes, and a tip in... no goaltender is going to stop those. Could he have stopped the breakaway, yeah... Goaltenders always have a chance on breakaways.



Are you sure about that? Because I guarantee your management would love a guy like Hemsky... but I guess I shouldn't water down your little "management" fact with common sense.
Not to mention Smyth and Brewer. Wow, no offense Malefic74, but that was a pretty (what's the word I'm looking for, something nicer than "ignorant"... how about) UNINFORMED thing to say

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10-30-2003, 10:35 AM
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malefic74

And finally, not a chance in hell would we give up either Komisarek or Hainsey for anything on the Oilers roster. Period.
We'll see in a few years when Hemsky is skating circles around those two.

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10-30-2003, 01:22 PM
  #10
Malefic74
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Goals Against Average: 3.54. Good for #50 out of 60 goaltenders who have played so far this season.

Save Percentage: .856. Good for #55 out of 60 goaltenders who have played so far this season.

That is brutal. No sugar-coating covers that. Numbers like that will not get it done. Am I saying Tommy is a terrible goaltender? No, but he has played awful. His positioning, crease movement and rebound control have been far below his standard of play.

He would be helped immensely if the Oilers defensive zone kept things to the outside instead of chasing puck carriers behind their own net.

Say what you want, I have seen more than a few Oilers games this season, but I am not sold on Hemsky. Certainly not enough to give up blue chip prospects for him. Forgot about Ryan Smyth though. Him maybe. Not Brewer, we have Markov already.

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Old
10-30-2003, 01:44 PM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malefic74
Say what you want, I have seen more than a few Oilers games this season, but I am not sold on Hemsky. Certainly not enough to give up blue chip prospects for him. Forgot about Ryan Smyth though. Him maybe. Not Brewer, we have Markov already.
No problem, we wouldn't trade Hemsky for Komi or Hainsey either. In fact, I think you'd be hard pressed to find many who would.

Comparing Brewer to Markov is also pretty ridiculous, since they play completely different games.

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10-30-2003, 01:56 PM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malefic74
Goals Against Average: 3.54. Good for #50 out of 60 goaltenders who have played so far this season.

Save Percentage: .856. Good for #55 out of 60 goaltenders who have played so far this season.

That is brutal. No sugar-coating covers that. Numbers like that will not get it done. Am I saying Tommy is a terrible goaltender? No, but he has played awful. His positioning, crease movement and rebound control have been far below his standard of play.

He would be helped immensely if the Oilers defensive zone kept things to the outside instead of chasing puck carriers behind their own net.
The problem is, the Oilers haven't given up a lot of shots, but they have given up a lot of high quality scoring chances... would you be saying anything different if his save % was around .910 because the oilers let the opposition shoot from the half boards all game long? Don't rely solely on numbers, because that isn't where the real story is.

Quote:
Say what you want, I have seen more than a few Oilers games this season, but I am not sold on Hemsky. Certainly not enough to give up blue chip prospects for him. Forgot about Ryan Smyth though. Him maybe. Not Brewer, we have Markov already.
Alright... whatever... Gainey would cream his pants (sorry guys), to get Hemsky at the expense of Komisarik or Hainsey (probably both)... but seeing as you are so found of numbers, Hainsey is 2.5 years older and has a whopping 1 career nhl point, and Komisarek who is 1.5 years older and has a whopping 1 career nhl point... meaning Hemsky has more points in one of his games this year than these two combined.

Pretty stupid to base everything on numbers isn't it?

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Old
10-30-2003, 02:12 PM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malefic74
Goals Against Average: 3.54. Good for #50 out of 60 goaltenders who have played so far this season.

Save Percentage: .856. Good for #55 out of 60 goaltenders who have played so far this season.

That is brutal. No sugar-coating covers that. Numbers like that will not get it done. Am I saying Tommy is a terrible goaltender? No, but he has played awful. His positioning, crease movement and rebound control have been far below his standard of play.

He would be helped immensely if the Oilers defensive zone kept things to the outside instead of chasing puck carriers behind their own net.

Say what you want, I have seen more than a few Oilers games this season, but I am not sold on Hemsky. Certainly not enough to give up blue chip prospects for him. Forgot about Ryan Smyth though. Him maybe. Not Brewer, we have Markov already.
JEE! I have an idea! watch more then a few games before you say that one of the top five sophmore players in the league isn't worth two completely unproven prospects.

Hemsky hasn't even played good yet this year, and he's still got a point/game. Also, if you think Brewer wouldn't land Hainsey your kidding yourself. Brewer is only two years older then Hainsey and is already established. When Brewer was Hainseys age he'd already put up a 20 point season! You are brutally over-rating your players.

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10-30-2003, 02:13 PM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgbone
The problem is, the Oilers haven't given up a lot of shots, but they have given up a lot of high quality scoring chances... would you be saying anything different if his save % was around .910 because the oilers let the opposition shoot from the half boards all game long? Don't rely solely on numbers, because that isn't where the real story is.



Alright... whatever... Gainey would cream his pants (sorry guys), to get Hemsky at the expense of Komisarik or Hainsey (probably both)... but seeing as you are so found of numbers, Hainsey is 2.5 years older and has a whopping 1 career nhl point, and Komisarek who is 1.5 years older and has a whopping 1 career nhl point... meaning Hemsky has more points in one of his games this year than these two combined.

Pretty stupid to base everything on numbers isn't it?

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10-30-2003, 03:40 PM
  #15
Malefic74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotToddy
Your team is built from the net out. Good D-men are far more valuable than good forwards. A good Defensman eats up 30 minutes a night by himself and if a team has a 4 stellar d-men they are set.
Sound familiar. I agree totally with you on this. Again Hainsey and Komisarek are virtually untouchable. Perhaps I overstated their avalue a touch and backhand slammed the Oil. Not my intention. Admittedly, Brewer and Smyth have a lot of value.

But slamming me for overvalueing two young guys on my team while overvalueing your own is a touch hypocritical. Hemsky is a very good, talented, player. He is also pretty quick and small. Like pretty much every winger the Habs have right now. We don't need anymore. Ditto for average size centres (Comrie) who play small.

As for Salo, what I am suggesting is that if the Oilers switch at least part of the time to a zone defense they will help Tommy immensely. Man-to-man defense puts a ton of pressure on the defensemen and the Oiler D-men have looked exhausted by the 3rd period in all 6 games I've seen. It also is a contributing factor to all those tap-ins and high-quality chances. The Oil get so busy running to chase their "man" that any kind of efficient low cycle kills them. Playing some kind of zone would help that and zone defenses also allow for a lot more blocked shots which also helps Tommy out.

Your original point was that the Oilers need D. I submit that the problem is not the personel, but the system (or lack thereof). If Comrie is traded you will need some scoring in return more than a #4 or #5 defensemen which is realistically all Comrie would net.

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10-30-2003, 04:01 PM
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malefic74
Sound familiar. I agree totally with you on this. Again Hainsey and Komisarek are virtually untouchable. Perhaps I overstated their avalue a touch and backhand slammed the Oil. Not my intention. Admittedly, Brewer and Smyth have a lot of value.

But slamming me for overvalueing two young guys on my team while overvalueing your own is a touch hypocritical. Hemsky is a very good, talented, player. He is also pretty quick and small. Like pretty much every winger the Habs have right now. We don't need anymore. Ditto for average size centres (Comrie) who play small.

As for Salo, what I am suggesting is that if the Oilers switch at least part of the time to a zone defense they will help Tommy immensely. Man-to-man defense puts a ton of pressure on the defensemen and the Oiler D-men have looked exhausted by the 3rd period in all 6 games I've seen. It also is a contributing factor to all those tap-ins and high-quality chances. The Oil get so busy running to chase their "man" that any kind of efficient low cycle kills them. Playing some kind of zone would help that and zone defenses also allow for a lot more blocked shots which also helps Tommy out.

Your original point was that the Oilers need D. I submit that the problem is not the personel, but the system (or lack thereof). If Comrie is traded you will need some scoring in return more than a #4 or #5 defensemen which is realistically all Comrie would net.
.


Over his past 24 games, Hemsky has 24 points... I don't think we are over-valuing him at all here.

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10-30-2003, 04:15 PM
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malefic74
Your original point was that the Oilers need D. I submit that the problem is not the personel, but the system (or lack thereof). If Comrie is traded you will need some scoring in return more than a #4 or #5 defensemen which is realistically all Comrie would net.
While I agree Oilers fans in general are expecting too much for Comrie, I really hope that he'd fetch more than a #5 D, or even #4. I mean, he's not going to bring back a genuine stud all by his lonesome, there's no Blakes or Jovanovskis or Charas strapping on Oilers duds as a result of Comrie going to Col/Van/Ott, but I'd certainly hope he brought back more than the likes of DeVries, Malik, or Hnidy. I'd expect him to bring back somebody in between, or perhaps to go in a package with somebody else (a prospect?) for a true #2.

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Old
10-30-2003, 04:27 PM
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malefic74
Sound familiar. I agree totally with you on this. Again Hainsey and Komisarek are virtually untouchable. Perhaps I overstated their avalue a touch and backhand slammed the Oil. Not my intention. Admittedly, Brewer and Smyth have a lot of value.

But slamming me for overvalueing two young guys on my team while overvalueing your own is a touch hypocritical. Hemsky is a very good, talented, player. He is also pretty quick and small. Like pretty much every winger the Habs have right now. We don't need anymore. Ditto for average size centres (Comrie) who play small.
Two MAJOR flaws right there:

1) Hemsky has scored 38 points in 67 career regular season games. He just turned 20 years old, and is playing on the top line in Edmonton. He has averaged a point per game in the regular season since the beginning of last March. He is a +5 in those 67 games, and is now receiving time on the PK as well as a regular shift on the top powerplay line. It should be noted that he leads the team in scoring.

Komisarek has played 21 games with 1 point (-6) and has made a couple of trips two and from the minors. He is still a great propect, but hasn't been able to crack the top 6 with a Montreal blueline that IMO is average in the NHL ( I know, it's either him or Hainsey, but the point is still there).

Hainsey has played 26 games registering 1 point (+1) and has spent parts of 3 seasons (so far) in the minors. However, as you and I both know, defencemen taake longer to develop, thus Hainsey is still considered a great prospect.

Do you notice the difference between the three? Results. You talk about Hemsky like he is some kid lighting it up his first year in the AHL. We've seen the results, we've seen what he can produce when the pressure (top line) is on him. There's a big difference between Hemsky and some "blue chip prospect". Can he keep it up? I can't say. Does he have a better chance of being a star in this league than Komisarek or Hainsey? IMO yes.

2) You said that Comrie is an average sized centre that playes small. That couldn't be farther from the truth. In fact, you've got it completely backwards. Comrie is a small centre that plays like he's 3 inches and 20 lbs heavier. If you've seen so many Oilers games, this should be evident to you. However, I agree that his size would be a hinderance on the Canadiens who are smallish already.

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