Ah, the Kaberle #1 or #4 argument continues.
My opinion still remains that he's essentially an excellent offensive D-Man, and average to marginally above average defensively.
Overall he's a good #2 D-Man in my mind, and young enough that he could potentially develop into a low-end #1 D-Man.
As always, the above is only my opinion and I have absolutely no interest in getting involved in the usual flame war over Kaberle's abilities.
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Welcome to Leafs Nation, leave your common sense at the door.
Kaberle is average without the puck. Average would probably be the equivalant of what a second-pairing guy is. I'd say that's relatively solid. What separates him is his offense which is easily in the top 10 league-wide. That, in turn, gives him a pretty damn solid two-way game.
Agreed.
But also don't underestimate Kaberle's defensive play WITH the puck.
In my mind what separates Kaberle is his ability to get the puck out of the zone, make smart plays with the puck in the defensive zone and his ability to elude forecheckers.
And my point was that you seemed to be pretty high on Kaberle's defensive ability back then. I wondered why you seem very down on him now.
Well, that was two or three years ago, I think, when we had that conversation. Kaberle's poise was pretty good for a 21-22 year old who had just made the team. It isn't that good for a 25-year-old who is supposedly the team's best defenceman. Kaberle is largely the same player now that he was then...a very good offensive defenceman. You expect some evolution in a player's game, and while his offensive game has remained consistent (1 point short of 4 40+ point seasons), I haven't seen the improvement in the rest of his game.
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Kaberle is average without the puck. Average would probably be the equivalant of what a second-pairing guy is. I'd say that's relatively solid. What separates him is his offense which is easily in the top 10 league-wide. That, in turn, gives him a pretty damn solid two-way game.
Agreed on the first point. He has to be better than that for the Leafs' sake, since they depend so heavily on him, and secondly to fulfill the moniker of "#1 defenceman" that everyone's pasting on him.
Brewer faces the same expectations in Edmonton...same age group too.
What really intrigues me is how people consider Jovanovski a true #1 (even though his defensive ability is far more questionable than sluggo claims Kaberle's is - he still makes rookie mistakes on a regular basis), yet Kaberle is generally a solid two-way player and gets thrown into the #2 category.
Interesting.
Two years ago, you'd have been quite right. However, Jovanovski has shored up his defensivly play in a huge way. Last year, Jovanovski was a +19, and so far this year, he's a +6. He has been playing on our #1 PK unit, and has really made about as many defensive gaffes as Ohlund has thus far in this year. Jovo & Ohlund, as far as I'm concerned, have been the Canucks' two best players so far this season. In particular, Ohlund.
Well, that was two or three years ago, I think, when we had that conversation. Kaberle's poise was pretty good for a 21-22 year old who had just made the team. It isn't that good for a 25-year-old who is supposedly the team's best defenceman. Kaberle is largely the same player now that he was then...a very good offensive defenceman. You expect some evolution in a player's game, and while his offensive game has remained consistent (1 point short of 4 40+ point seasons), I haven't seen the improvement in the rest of his game.
About a year and a half ago, I was chastized for saying Kaberle was not going to improve much more in his career. Again, hate to say I told you so, Icewind, but wouldntcha know it.. I did!
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Agreed on the first point. He has to be better than that for the Leafs' sake, since they depend so heavily on him, and secondly to fulfill the moniker of "#1 defenceman" that everyone's pasting on him.
Brewer faces the same expectations in Edmonton...same age group too.
I think Rand hit the nail on the head. Kaberle is a solid #2 man that on a good year, could be a low-end #1. I really like Kaberle, he's one of my favorite offensive defensemen, and for certain he's a nice package. But to say things like, 'He's solid defensivly', is just a boldfaced lie and everybody here knows it. Kaberle is not terrible defensivly, but 'solid' isn't quite how I'd characterize him either. But this isn't really all that important, but it's Kaberle's job to put up numbers primarily, which is something he is very, very good at.
And if you look around the league, the prototype for the #1 defenseman is a defensive stopper with size, strength, a good first pass out of the zone, and some/lots of offensive ability. Look at my team, the Canucks, where Ohlund is the #1 defenseman, and Jovanovski is the #2. Heck, look at last year's stars where Darian Hatcher is the #1, and Sergei Zubov is the #2. In some cases, the #2 defenseman can be BETTER than a #1 defenseman (I believe both those examples to show just that).
As for Brewer, honestly, Kaberle smokes Brewer in pretty much all areas but size & strength if you ask me. I see Brewer & Kabs play often, and you guys sometimes don't know how good you got it with Kaberle. He is indeed a very, very good defenseman. And sometimes you don't know what you've got until you've lost it. If Ferguson/Whomever else down the road trades Kaberle off, something tells me Leaf fans will be pinning for a guy just like him 5 or 6 days after.
Two years ago, you'd have been quite right. However, Jovanovski has shored up his defensivly play in a huge way. Last year, Jovanovski was a +19, and so far this year, he's a +6. He has been playing on our #1 PK unit, and has really made about as many defensive gaffes as Ohlund has thus far in this year. Jovo & Ohlund, as far as I'm concerned, have been the Canucks' two best players so far this season. In particular, Ohlund.
You're saying Jovanovski has shored up his defense because he was +19 last year.
Well Kaberle was +20.
Kaberle is solid defensively and a great two-way player.
Funny, when I watched the game last night and watched Kaberle slip up, the first thing that came accross my mind is Sluggo's love affair for him. I was expecting to jump on this morning and see some BS thread started by him jumping all over a mistake. Of course I knew that McCabe's or Klee's obvious errors during the game wouldn't be mentioned by him because he likes their style of play.
Damn, the past few days without a troll have been peaceful. Why don't you just make on your promises and ******* OFF!!!
When I saw Kaberle give that puck away I though the exact same thing!
Sluggo - Get a life!! I guess Kaberle is the only defenseman in history to make a mistake and give up a goal. Might as well trade the weak piece of crap, he sucks doesn't he. I think Gonchar would do way better, he's a physical presence out there. He's stablizing that Caps D as we speak. You can't honestly tell me that you can read your own posts and then tell me that you truly believe what you say. If you do, you need to learn the game a bit better IMO. I want you to reply to this and tell me that you 100% believe what you say about Kaberle and that it's not exaggerated or bias in any way. He's not that bad, you must have something going on in your head. I don't get you!
ThinkBlue - I know I shouldn't be wasting my time but this just really irritates me.
You're saying Jovanovski has shored up his defense because he was +19 last year.
Well Kaberle was +20.
Kaberle is solid defensively and a great two-way player.
Heh, I guess it isn't right of me to base Jovanovski being a good defensive player using +/-, then trying to say Kaberle isn't solid when he's got a similar +/-.
However, I was more trying to show Jovanovski is not 'poor' defensivly at all.
As we all know, +/- is a pretty subjective stat. I mean, Todd Bertuzzi was a +22 I think it was a few years ago, but Todd might be the worst defensive player in the league.
I would agree he's a great two-way player, just not sure I'd say he's 'solid' defensivly, as I said before.
+/- is misleading especially when players get tunes of PP time can be a very misleading stat... Though I don't think Kaberle is a weak defender nor do I think he is a great defender If I were to rate his defensive game I would rate him just above average . I do think that is a fare rating for him and I doubt many would or should argue that.
"Get a life!! I guess Kaberle is the only defenseman in history to make a mistake and give up a goal"
Kaberle makes mistake like that ALL the time, lastnights was just painfully clear and no one could deny it - he constantly lets guys get by him, losing battles along the boards, and gives the puck away making stupid cross ice passes in his own zone. And GIVING UP the puck isn't a mistake. Trying to control it and losing it is a mistake, he just GAVE UP, he saw a hit coming and stoped playing, the same thing Reichel used to do.
Leaf Army - +/- don't make a good defenseman, I've explained this to you I don't know how many times. But to you defensemen live and die by their +/-'s, so I guess Kaberle is a better defenseman then Rob Blake (Blakes a carrer +7, Kaberle is a carrer +39).
"Why do people say that Kaberle is not a #1 defenceman in the NHL?
The Leafs are an above average NHL team and Kaberle has been their #1 defenceman for a couple years now.
Therefore Kaberle is a #1 defenceman. End of story"
NO, this logic just shows how stupid you are. The Leafs DEFENSE has been average or below average the last couple years. McCabe is higher then Kaberle in the depth chart (again, that coming from the former assistent GM, so he knows how those within in the team see them). And just because a guy is the #1 guy on a team with no #1 doesn't mean hes a #1 NHL guy. By you logic Markov (both of them), Bouwmeester, Sydor, McCarthy etc.... are all #1 defenseman or Gomez is a #1 centerman, cloutier a #1 goalie.
+/- is misleading especially when players get tunes of PP time can be a very misleading stat... Though I don't think Kaberle is a weak defender nor do I think he is a great defender If I were to rate his defensive game I would rate him just above average . I do think that is a fare rating for him and I doubt many would or should argue that.
Once again, I agree with you there. I think most do. There are simply a few extremists (Sluggo viewing Kaberle as a #4, Icewind viewing him as a #1) that continue to add fuel to this arguement...
The only place Kaberle is a #4 defenseman is on a healthy Detroit Red Wings team.
It seems most reasonable people here can agree that he is between a lower-end #1 and a top end #2. He'd be on the first pairing of most teams in the NHL.
Kaberle is a #2 at best, but would be best as #3. He is too timid, prone to errors, nice puckhandling, and nice passing, but doesn't shoot enough.
But the thing is most of you think to be a top pairing defender you need to be this big mean agressive player when in fact your missing the major point. Kaberle has all the tools to be a great defender. Still a young man and entering the prime years of his pro hockey life. I feel alot of you are underating his skills although I agree he is not your prototypical #1 defenceman there is no way I see him as being a 3rd or 4th pairing guy. There's just too much talent there and it's a silly argument to begin with.
"there is no way I see him as being a 3rd or 4th pairing guy"
No, he's a second pairing guy.
"He'd be on the first pairing of most teams in the NHL."
Except those teams that have #1 and #2 defensemen. And PAIRINGS don't determine # postion. Look at the Avs, Blake is #1, Foote is #2, but they aren't paired together. If the Leafs got Gonchar we'd probably see Gonchar/Klee and McCabe/Kaberle, but Klee isn't #2. If the Avs (for the sake of argument) got Kaberle he might be on their first pairing with Blake but he would still be their #4 guy behind Blake, Foote and Morris.
"Of course I knew that McCabe's or Klee's obvious errors during the game wouldn't be mentioned by him because he likes their style of play"
No, I didn't mention their mistakes because they are #3/#4 depth guys and they make #3 and #4 depth guy mistakes and since no one seems to over rate these guys (everyonek nows where they sit, though most agree McCabe has potential to be a top guy). A few people on here OVER RATE Kaberle and call him a #1 D-man, and GIVING UP on the puck isn't something a #1 d-man does. And is was such a GLARING **** up that it couldn't be "blown off" as I've seen people do with most of his mistakes (ie - the goal the Devils got with 2 seconds left).
When I hear about players like Ozolinsh, Trevdvosky, Rafalski, Gonchar, and even Kaberle, d-men who are so good offensively but weak defensivly,
WHy do they play defence then????
Why not just become like wingers or something, I mean you only need so much offense from your defense, and only those like Jovanovski, Lidstrom, Pronger should be considered real Offensive Defensemen. Because they are actually Defenseman.
