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Thornton the MVP?

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Old
04-20-2006, 11:33 AM
  #26
bobbop
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Originally Posted by RangerBoy
Really I don't want Jagr to win the Hart because his option for 2008-09 would become guaranteed.If he wins a major award,the option is guaranteed.That option is a team option with a $760,000 buyout.He didn't win the scoring title or the Rocket Richard award.It's the Hart or bust.Granted the split between the Rangers and Caps will be the same with the Rangers paying $4.94 million for that season.Two more seasons of Jagr is more than enough

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04-20-2006, 11:36 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway
What I don't understand is why it seems that Thornton's season starts after he's traded to the Sharks. He did not carry a Bruin's team that many thought were a lock for the playoffs.

Jagr carried the Rangers to the playoffs from day one. And they were in first place in their division as late as the last game of the regular season.
And I do think it should count for something that Jagr lead his team in goals and assists.

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04-20-2006, 11:40 AM
  #28
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Yes another Jagr for MVP thread. Fantastic.

Can we sticky this to avoid further threads or am I the only one sick of them?

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04-20-2006, 12:02 PM
  #29
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can a person that's only played 65-70 games win the MVP? If so, then I think Thornton's season can start later. His arrival turned around a team, and it's very apparent the way he transformed the team. He didn't lead his former team - much like Jagr led his current team to a losing record since the Olympics. You can take Thornton's entire season (and every MVP has bad stretches in a season), and in the end, he led a team to the playoffs. That's why he should be considered.

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04-20-2006, 12:42 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch
can a person that's only played 65-70 games win the MVP? If so, then I think Thornton's season can start later. His arrival turned around a team, and it's very apparent the way he transformed the team. He didn't lead his former team - much like Jagr led his current team to a losing record since the Olympics. You can take Thornton's entire season (and every MVP has bad stretches in a season), and in the end, he led a team to the playoffs. That's why he should be considered.
I think he's def. a contender.

But taking Thornton out of SJ still leaves a pretty good Cheechoo and Marleau and Ekman. While Cheechoo wouldn't be a 50 goal scorer it's not unrealistic that any of those three would have been around 25-30 goals.

You take Jagr out of NY and the entire team falls apart, no matter how good Lundqvist plays. Straka and Nylander hit 20 goals with Jagr. Without him those guys are lucky to come in at 15-20.

The only other legit goal scorer on the team for most of the year was a rookie named Prucha. You take Jagr out of the picture and you have team with a lot of 10-15 goal scorers and not a single individual who teams HAVE to alter their game plan for.

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Old
04-20-2006, 12:43 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch
can a person that's only played 65-70 games win the MVP? If so, then I think Thornton's season can start later. His arrival turned around a team, and it's very apparent the way he transformed the team. He didn't lead his former team - much like Jagr led his current team to a losing record since the Olympics. You can take Thornton's entire season (and every MVP has bad stretches in a season), and in the end, he led a team to the playoffs. That's why he should be considered.
I'm not saying he doesn't deserve consideration. My point is its easier to see the impact that Thornton had on the Sharks because he traded and there is a before and after effect. The fact that he was traded out of Boston seems to be viewed by many as irrelevant. How valuable was he to the Bruins?

You can't do a cause and effect comparison with Jagr. But that does not make his impact any less valuable a bit less apparent perhaps. He was the man for his team from the start of the season.

Again, for me it all comes down to expectations and results. The Rangers were projected by some to finish dead last. Pretty much no one had them making the playoffs. They wound up with 100 points. Jagr lead his team in goals and assists.

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04-20-2006, 12:47 PM
  #32
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Lundqvist is your true MVP. You couldn't win without him.

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04-20-2006, 12:49 PM
  #33
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The MVP is always tricky because you have to balance the arguments of best player vs. best player for his team.

If I go with the latter, SJ is in better shape without Thornton than the Rangers without Jagr.

Thornton had 120+ point, but he also had a guy who could pop in 50 goals with him.

Jagr's next nearest linemate had what? 23? Next nearest goal scorer was a guy who was injured and scored 30? That's a big drop off.

But Jagr like the Rangers can never really win. When they win something it's because they play in NY.

Having an argument with the average sports fan is like arguing with a handi-capped child.

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04-20-2006, 12:50 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chi777
Lundqvist is your true MVP. You couldn't win without him.
Lundqvist makes a huge difference, but without Jagr this team just doesn't score.

With Lundqvist the team loses a lot of 3-2, 2-1 hockey games.

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04-20-2006, 12:52 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Edge
The MVP is always tricky because you have to balance the arguments of best player vs. best player for his team.

If I go with the latter, SJ is in better shape without Thornton than the Rangers without Jagr.

Thornton had 120+ point, but he also had a guy who could pop in 50 goals with him.

Jagr's next nearest linemate had what? 23? Next nearest goal scorer was a guy who was injured and scored 30? That's a big drop off.

But Jagr like the Rangers can never really win. When they win something it's because they play in NY.

Having an argument with the average sports fan is like arguing with a handi-capped child.
Good post.

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Old
04-20-2006, 12:55 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge
The MVP is always tricky because you have to balance the arguments of best player vs. best player for his team.

If I go with the latter, SJ is in better shape without Thornton than the Rangers without Jagr.

Thornton had 120+ point, but he also had a guy who could pop in 50 goals with him.

I beg to differ on one thing you said, Edge.

Jonathan Cheechoo had SEVEN goals in his first 24 games. He had 28 goals in 81 games last season (so clearly he's a decent goal scorer, 25-30 I'd say). In the 58 games Thornton joined him, he scored 49 more.

So, to say that Thornton had a guy who could pop in 50 goals and not give him most of the credit for that, well, I'm not sure that's accurate.

I understand you said he could pop 50 goals "with" him, but Cheechoo without Thornton is a 30-goal scorer. Ask Mike Knuble (who is fortunate enough to play with Forsberg now) and Glen Murray. They'll tell you how Big Joe increased their goal scoring a great deal.

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Old
04-20-2006, 01:01 PM
  #37
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Why do you guys make such a big deal about early season predictions? Everyone predicted carolina to finish almost last too. By that logic, Staal should be mvp since his team finished 2nd in the east. You can't go by early season predictions cause no one predicted lundqvist would be a veizna candidate and predicted the rangers team with weekes in net. The rangers are barely .500 with weekes in net, but jagr still played in all those games. Both guys deserve it and it won't be an upset whoever wins it.


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Old
04-20-2006, 02:21 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by NYRangersFan
I always thought Thornton was a top 5 player in the league. His only downfall is that he disappears in the playoffs.
to be fair to him, he disappears in the playoffs but he's always been on boston in the playoffs. in recent years, many bruins have disappeared in the postseason. not saying he played well but was brought down, just saying he didn't get much support.

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04-20-2006, 02:35 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Leetchie
I beg to differ on one thing you said, Edge.

Jonathan Cheechoo had SEVEN goals in his first 24 games. He had 28 goals in 81 games last season (so clearly he's a decent goal scorer, 25-30 I'd say). In the 58 games Thornton joined him, he scored 49 more.

So, to say that Thornton had a guy who could pop in 50 goals and not give him most of the credit for that, well, I'm not sure that's accurate.

I understand you said he could pop 50 goals "with" him, but Cheechoo without Thornton is a 30-goal scorer. Ask Mike Knuble (who is fortunate enough to play with Forsberg now) and Glen Murray. They'll tell you how Big Joe increased their goal scoring a great deal.
I disagree. Cheechoo is not a 30 year old journeyman who never scored before. Yeah he had 28 goals in 81 games, as a 23/24 year old and in the older NHL.

He's still a young guy, so to say he was only 28 goal scorer has never been an argument I've understood. Yeah he was off to slow a start, but that doesn't mean that his entire level was only 20 goals. I think people aren't giving Cheechoo enough credit for what he actually brings to the table, he obviously benefited from Thornton (who wouldn't really?) but he's not exactly stone hands without him. He's 25/26 and without Thornton is probably a solid 30-35 goal scorer without a possibly top end of 40 goals.

So even if we say 30-35 goals and nothing more without Thornton, that's still double what a guy like Nylander or Straka gets without Jagr. So even playing worse case scenario where SJ doesn't have Thornton and Rangers don't have Jagr SJ still has the edge there.

Simple question, would anyone in their right mind trade Nylander, Straka and Rucisnky for Cheechoo, Ekman and Marleau.

That about says it all right there.

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04-20-2006, 02:35 PM
  #40
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Edge...

if you took Thornton out of San Jose, you have Cheechoo at around 25-30 goals and they miss the playoffs.

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04-20-2006, 02:37 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway
Jagr lead his team in goals and assists.
this to me is the focal point of the argument for jagr. as some have said, preseason predictions mean little, especially after the lockout.

to me, jagr was the most complete player in the NHL this season. Without him our leading goal scorer has 29, and you can argue withour jagr running the PP, prucha doesn't score a few of those.

without jagr, we have straka as our main assist guy, but how many of those assists were on jagr's goals? how many does he get setting up nylander or prucha or sykora?

then you factor in the puck control. jagr's line was often placed against the other teams top line, because they had such great confidence in his ability to maintain puck control that it reduced scoring chances for the other teams top players. i'm sure thornton, with his size and skill, was also effective in this manner, but i didnt' see enough of him to be sure.

i know jagr's worth because i've witnessed it, as i'm sure sharks fans will testify about thornton. as has been mentioned, whoever wins it will have deserved it. perhaps jagr will win the hart but thornton will win the pearson, or vice versa?

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04-20-2006, 02:48 PM
  #42
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jagr all the way i hope

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04-20-2006, 02:55 PM
  #43
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So...

playmakers can't be MVPs then, I guess. The systems are different, from what I can gather. San Jose gets the puck to Thornton who looks to draw a couple guys to him setting up odd man situations to set-up his guys. The Rangers do the same thing, but Jagr shoots more. In the end, they create points and points are scored. Often we say certain players' (i.e., Jagr's) assists are as good as goals - Thornton's are the same. This is the MVP of a team. Perhaps Thornton also brings better leadership to his team, or he brings a physical presence that is an added element. All things must be considered. It's not the guy with the most goals. Unfortunately, as I mentioned once before, it is a stats game, since the voters cannot see a representative sample of each candidate's games.

Again, I should note that I think Jagr will win it. I just think it will (and should) be closer than most may think. And I think Kipprusoff should be close too.

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04-20-2006, 02:59 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch
playmakers can't be MVPs then, I guess. The systems are different, from what I can gather. San Jose gets the puck to Thornton who looks to draw a couple guys to him setting up odd man situations to set-up his guys. The Rangers do the same thing, but Jagr shoots more. In the end, they create points and points are scored. Often we say certain players' (i.e., Jagr's) assists are as good as goals - Thornton's are the same. This is the MVP of a team. Perhaps Thornton also brings better leadership to his team, or he brings a physical presence that is an added element. All things must be considered. It's not the guy with the most goals. Unfortunately, as I mentioned once before, it is a stats game, since the voters cannot see a representative sample of each candidate's games.

Again, I should note that I think Jagr will win it. I just think it will (and should) be closer than most may think. And I think Kipprusoff should be close too.
you make good points.

whatever the case, this is one of the closest MVP arguments i've ever witnessed. both players have a case, but for different reasons. has there ever been a co-mvp awarded?

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04-20-2006, 04:06 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch
if you took Thornton out of San Jose, you have Cheechoo at around 25-30 goals and they miss the playoffs.
And you take Jagr off the Rangers and they aren't going to the playoffs either.


And that 25-30 goals is still more than anyone on the Rangers top line outside of Jagr.

Which goes back to what I said earlier. You take Thornton out of the equation and you still have three players who will net 25-35 goals.

You take Jagr out of the equation and no one outside Prucha breaks 20. Not Nylander, not Rucinsky, not Straka.

And once again I think Cheechoo is being highly underrated here. Like somehow he peaked at 23 and is only a 25 some odd goal scorer. The kid is a legit 30-40 goal scorer. He's not a 50 goal guy without Thornton, but he's not chopped liver either.

There is no question that Thornton is deserving of being nominated, the question is who brings more value to his team. And when I do the equations for both the Rangers and SJ without Jagr and Thornton respecitivly I see a big difference.

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04-20-2006, 04:12 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch
playmakers can't be MVPs then, I guess. The systems are different, from what I can gather. San Jose gets the puck to Thornton who looks to draw a couple guys to him setting up odd man situations to set-up his guys. The Rangers do the same thing, but Jagr shoots more. In the end, they create points and points are scored. Often we say certain players' (i.e., Jagr's) assists are as good as goals - Thornton's are the same. This is the MVP of a team. Perhaps Thornton also brings better leadership to his team, or he brings a physical presence that is an added element. All things must be considered. It's not the guy with the most goals. Unfortunately, as I mentioned once before, it is a stats game, since the voters cannot see a representative sample of each candidate's games.

Again, I should note that I think Jagr will win it. I just think it will (and should) be closer than most may think. And I think Kipprusoff should be close too.
Assists are bit easier to get that points. That's not a knock but the way the game is designed its a possibility. You can second assists, but you don't get second goals. As a result you will always see more assists than goals in the entire sport.

From a numbers game it's just about dead even, but the question still becomes what is left if you take them both away from their teams?

SJ might not be a playoff team, but they aren't chopped liver either. The lineup they had took them to the playoffs before this season. The Rangers lineup hasn't taken them to the playoffs in a decade.

Would you take Cheechoo over Straka?

Would you take Ekman over Rucinsky?

Would you take Marleau over Nylander?

SJ isn't nearly as good of a team without Thornton, but I'd still take a lot of their offensive forwards over ours.

When Joe Thornton isn't on the ice the Sharks can throw Marleau out there.

Whose playing behind Jagr at his position? Sykora?

Sykora vs. Marleau? Cmon now.

I'm not taking anything away from Thornton, he had an amazing year. But without Jagr the Rangers struggle to win even half the games they won this year.

A top 6 with names like Rucisnky, Straka, Nylander and Rucchin just isn't going to lead a team many places without a name like Jagr.

A top 6 with names like Ekman, Marleau and Cheechoo stands a better chance and actually has lead a team to the playoffs before.

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Old
04-20-2006, 05:05 PM
  #47
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I stand by my opinion that Cheechoo is a 25-30 goal scorer without Thornton. Yes, he had 28 last season, but he also played on the top line with Marleau and got prime PP time. For him to become a 56 goal scorer? It took a Thornton. Just like it took that to make Murray a 40-goal scorer and Knuble a 30-goal scorer.

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04-20-2006, 05:38 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Leetchie
I stand by my opinion that Cheechoo is a 25-30 goal scorer without Thornton. Yes, he had 28 last season, but he also played on the top line with Marleau and got prime PP time. For him to become a 56 goal scorer? It took a Thornton. Just like it took that to make Murray a 40-goal scorer and Knuble a 30-goal scorer.
Big difference though, 28 last season was still two years ago and Cheechoo was all of 23/24. How many guys at 23/24 in the old NHL were putting up 40 goal seasons.

And no one is saying he is a 56 goal scorer on his own, but you honestly think the kid peaked at 23?Not only did he peak, but he actually was on his "better" seasons with 28 goals?

Sorry but I've followed the kid since he was 17 and he's got some skills. His skating was his main drawback and he improved that my leaps and bounds. He scored 28 goals as a 23 year old (not 26, not 27, not 30) and in a different NHL. I don't see how even without Thornton that projects to ONLY a 25-30 goal in the new NHL and that much closer to his peak years. That just doesn't make sense to me.

Now there is no arguing that Thornton makes him better, no one has or is going to dispute that. But I don't think some of the fans on here have realized just how good Cheechoo actually is and has turned himself into over the years.

Adam Graves wasn't a 52 goal scorer, but he wasn't ONLY a product of Mark Messier. Same with Cheechoo and Thornton, to say otherwise is unfair to a winger who is actually pretty dang good in his own right.

Even if we play Devil's advocate for a second and say "Cheechoo is only a 25-30 goal scorer" that still leaves us with the fact that it's more than Rucinsky, Nylander and Straka were EVEN WITH Jagr.

So if Rucinsky, Straka and Nylander can't even hit 30 goals with Jagr, where does that leave them without him?


As for Murray and Knuble those are bad comparisons. Murray was a guy who was still a 30 goal guy in the old NHL without Thornton. Obviously he's a better player with Thornton, but he's another one who wasn't exactly Jason Ward without him.

He went from a 29 goal scorer to 44 with Thornton, so he went up 15 goals. Obviously better, but still about a 30 goal guy without him.

Same with Cheechoo, obviously 56 is thanks to Thornton but if you take 15...even 20 goals you've still got a 35-40 goal scorer. That's not unrealistic two years after he scored 28 goals without Thornton. And once again it must be noted that Nylander, Straka and Rucinsky didn't even hit that THIS year WITH Jagr and in the NEW NHL.

As for Knuble, the guy never had more than 15 goals till he was 30 years old. Cheechoo was scoring 28 at the age of 23/24. That's a VERY big difference.

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04-20-2006, 07:06 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Edge
So if Rucinsky, Straka and Nylander can't even hit 30 goals with Jagr, where does that leave them without him?
This is a bad comparison, cause rucinsky was hurt and missed a lot of games and because straka and nylander aren't meant to score all the goals. Jagr is the primary goal scorer. Joe Thornton doesn't even have 30 goals, cause he's a playmaker, just like everyone who plays with jagr. Their job is to get jagr the puck, not to score. Marleau and cheechoo are better than nylander and straka, but rucinsky is better than ekman. Sharks fans have been complaining all year that ekman doesn't convert any of the setups from joe or cheechoo and he only has 2 more points than rucinsky, but has played about 20 more games than him.

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04-20-2006, 07:12 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by Sicilian

to me, jagr was the most complete player in the NHL this season.
I hope you are being sarcastic. I would hardly call a player who can't play defense "complete".

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