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Old
10-29-2003, 12:27 PM
  #1
disles1
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What could have been

Now I realize this has been beaten to death but ---after the 1999-2000 season if Mad Mike had not made ANY trades (good or bad) and built the team from within with draft picks---we would have had a great young team that could have competed for the CUP EVERY YEAR!!! AS opposed to a good team that will struggle to make the playoffs and come up short because management will not pay for that EXTRA player. The team:

Isbister Spezza Gaborik/Heatley
Pyatt Jokinen Czerkawski
Torres Connolly Bergenheim

Brewer Jonsson
Chara Mezei

Luongo

Oh Well ---I guess we have to be happy with a competitive team that will lose in the playoffs.

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10-29-2003, 01:03 PM
  #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by disles1
Now I realize this has been beaten to death but ---after the 1999-2000 season if Mad Mike had not made ANY trades (good or bad) and built the team from within with draft picks---we would have had a great young team that could have competed for the CUP EVERY YEAR!!! AS opposed to a good team that will struggle to make the playoffs and come up short because management will not pay for that EXTRA player. The team:

Isbister Spezza Gaborik/Heatley
Pyatt Jokinen Czerkawski
Torres Connolly Bergenheim

Brewer Jonsson
Chara Mezei

Luongo

Oh Well ---I guess we have to be happy with a competitive team that will lose in the playoffs.
The idea of having a solid team on the ice now is to get an average amount of fans in the stands. You're lineup is nice and full of potential, but there would have been 6,000 people per game in the stands for the last 2 years while those guys develop and things start to click.

Now at least they can take thier time to develop their prospects(Nilsson, Bergenheim, DiPietro, Gervais, etc) while being a competitive franchise and maybe winning a round or two in the playoffs each year.

Wang and Milbury want to build through the draft, that is why Wang is not going to shell out more $ for a player or 2.

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10-29-2003, 01:21 PM
  #3
disles1
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Yes I realize that we would have had about 6,000 fans but I could live with that because I think that team would have been special. Now we have 11,000 fans that realize this team is not going to go deep in the playoffs and are not willing to pay the extra price of tickets if wang is not willing to pay the price for that one extra piece to the puzzle. We by the way have won ZERO rounds in the playoffs with the group we have. Come on Wang get that extra player to take us out of the middle of the pack. We are so close!!!

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10-29-2003, 01:54 PM
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by disles1
Now I realize this has been beaten to death but ---after the 1999-2000 season if Mad Mike had not made ANY trades (good or bad) and built the team from within with draft picks---we would have had a great young team that could have competed for the CUP EVERY YEAR!!! AS opposed to a good team that will struggle to make the playoffs and come up short because management will not pay for that EXTRA player. The team:

Isbister Spezza Gaborik/Heatley
Pyatt Jokinen Czerkawski
Torres Connolly Bergenheim

Brewer Jonsson
Chara Mezei

Luongo

Oh Well ---I guess we have to be happy with a competitive team that will lose in the playoffs.
It would be 10 years and counting missing the playoffs if that was the team...Hell,Isles might not even be on Long Island anymore!

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10-29-2003, 04:24 PM
  #5
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OK, we'll play along with the charade:

Isbister - 4th liner and healthy scratch on Edmonton, 1st liner on this "dream team" .
Spezza - shows considerable "promise"; he's heading up your first line at age 20?
Gaborik/Heatley - no argument there; two superb players
Pyatt - "promising;" however, if he's one of your top 5 forwards at this point, your team is not too competitive.
Jokinen - unless Mike Keenan is NYI's coach, no indication that he would produce at all.
Czerkawski - nevermind
Torres - just how many kids do you want to ice? Playing in the NHL or AHL here?
Connolly - wow, first-liner in '99; demoted to third line by '03. Perimeter player who does not like the rough stuff as your checking center?
Bergenheim - 19 y/o getting a regular shift?

Brewer - I'll take Hamrlik thank you
Jonsson - fine there
Chara - solid 2nd paring dman
Mezei - and he earns a top 4 spot based on what exactly?

Luongo - outstanding goalie

Seems here that the equation is: youth = success. Not necessarily, not by a longhot. That team would not be near the playoffs. You are overrating quite a few players with the spots you've handed them, IMO.

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10-30-2003, 06:24 AM
  #6
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The point was that with that team atleast we would have had a chance to be "great" as opposed to what we have now--a middle of the road team that has no real shot at the cup. My opinion

Isbister>Kvasha--now and in the future
Spezza<Yashin--Yashin now Spezza in future(pt per game no big salary)
Czer=Czerawski
Pyatt>Blake--I'll take Pyatt now and in the future
Jokinen=Peca--Peca now leadership etc---but Jokinen is a all star now
Heatley/Gaborik>>>Parish --now and especially in future
Torres>Weimer--I'll take Torres now Weimer does nothing we overpaid
Connolly<<Scatch----Scatch EASILY
Bergeinheim=Bates---Bates now Berg in future
Brewer=Hamrlik--Hamrlik now Brewer in future--
Jonsson=Jonsson
Chara>Aucoin---Easily
Mezei<Niinima--Easily
Luongo>>>Diepietro--now AND in the future

So yes in this charade this team is young but I would take this young team NOW and in the Future over our current team. Unless of course you are happy with mediocrity.

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10-30-2003, 06:30 AM
  #7
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Post got cut off

Spezza<Yashin--Yashin now Spezza in future
Connoly<Scatch--Scatch EASILY
Mezei<Niinimma--

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10-30-2003, 07:11 AM
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by disles1

Isbister>Kvasha--now and in the future

Watch much hockey lately? I know Izzy has been watching a bit from the press box, while Kvasha has been one of if not the Best Isles forward in October.

Your young team would be full of pontential and minght even be winning as soon as now. That said, if you can not see the MM got the order from Wang to get this team into the playoffs ASAP from year one of his ownership than your just not looking hard and only doing a little NHL2004 dreaming.

Add another factor. With your entire team of young stars now reaching for than next round of contracts, how do you pay them all?

Gaborik wants 6 mill a year. Heatly's getting at least 3. Spezza will want the same soon. Loungo is also going to be getting top end money. Soon you have: A) at least one or two guys holding out for more cash or B) a Ranger like top heavy team with no quality depth players.

The current build of the Isles had as much to do with bringing in fans to boost support for a new arena as it did with winning. Wang has put fourth a good product hoping to get help ( and the development rights) to build on the land around NVMC.

Your looking it only from a hockey perspective and not from the bussiness side. This does not make you a bad fan, just a bitter one. Remember that $$ dictate almost every player move in today's NHL, not team needs. Even though its hard to follow the money reasons from the past few years they are there. Wang wants to make money first and hopefully win along the way like 90% of the other NHL owners out there.

-Tiki

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10-30-2003, 10:21 AM
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier
OK, we'll play along with the charade:

Isbister - 4th liner and healthy scratch on Edmonton, 1st liner on this "dream team" .
Spezza - shows considerable "promise"; he's heading up your first line at age 20?
Gaborik/Heatley - no argument there; two superb players
Pyatt - "promising;" however, if he's one of your top 5 forwards at this point, your team is not too competitive.
Jokinen - unless Mike Keenan is NYI's coach, no indication that he would produce at all.
Czerkawski - nevermind
Torres - just how many kids do you want to ice? Playing in the NHL or AHL here?
Connolly - wow, first-liner in '99; demoted to third line by '03. Perimeter player who does not like the rough stuff as your checking center?
Bergenheim - 19 y/o getting a regular shift?

Brewer - I'll take Hamrlik thank you
Jonsson - fine there
Chara - solid 2nd paring dman
Mezei - and he earns a top 4 spot based on what exactly?

Luongo - outstanding goalie

Seems here that the equation is: youth = success. Not necessarily, not by a longhot. That team would not be near the playoffs. You are overrating quite a few players with the spots you've handed them, IMO.

thanks Trot's - you spoke for me as well.

'charade' is an understatement...take your team and hang it out there in a fantasy development league for a while...ENJOY!

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10-30-2003, 10:44 AM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by disles1

Jokinen=Peca--Peca now leadership etc---but Jokinen is a all star now
are you serious?

Czerkawski has been all star before too. Personally, I'd take a multiple Selke winning center that has captained a team to the Stanley Cup finals over an "all star" center with exactly one season of 30pts or higher production and by wide margin. Especially when said all star center's career best produced all of 5 points more than the Selke center's career best.

the team you have iced there would be offensively talented in a few years to be sure, but i'd hate be poor luongo playing behind that many defenseive lapses. the team would be rather one-dimensional and shallow and i highly doubt it'd compete anytime in the near future. but we'd have a shot at ovechkin or crosby.

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10-30-2003, 11:23 AM
  #11
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I 2nd Big Peca on this one. The Islanders would not exist on Long Island.

They would be gone!

That said, I am starting to wonder how long Wang will pump money into this franchise and lose $20M/year if he doesn't get his arena.

They may be gone sooner than people think!

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10-30-2003, 12:01 PM
  #12
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I think it's time to reset the stage to summer 2001.

Wang and Kumar's first year was in the books and the fans who brought the attendance based on new ownership were not going to run to the Coliseum to see the 30th ranked team in the NHL unless these people did something to turn things around immediately. Maybe Milbury also had to save his job but something had to be done to get some excitement around this team.

They made tough choices to get fans interested and avoid a league record of years out of the playoffs and traded some outstanding youth for some world-class star players. Milbury added Aucoin and Ozzie also. The Isles summer got a ton of positive publicity, they got a big bump in ticket sales and raced out to the best start in the teams history.

We all know what's happened since, but to simply say three years later that by now all these players would be leading the Islanders to elite status is just not fair, we do not know what would have happened, and it's fair to say the those signings combined with the start to 2001-02 brought in fans they might never have had and saved this franchise from going under, leases or not, as everyone was already tired of waiting for results.

What would Luongo have done here with a group of kids similar (in draft status) to what Florida has now? What would have happened with Connolly, Olli, Scatchard down the middle and Pyatt, Torres on the wings.

Were the moves perfect? No. There was a long-term price that the Isles will continue to pay with each Pyatt, Spezza and Heatley goal and like all organizations some poor decisions were made, but the team did stay in business and add a minor league affiliate and this ownership is now taking a huge hit because the fans do not believe in the teams direction or the ticket prices.

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10-30-2003, 12:37 PM
  #13
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Good posts guys--I realize that this is a fantasy team and I realize Wang had to do something to get the isles in the playoffs(which he did) and he has lost alot of $$$ but wang is a very smart guy he knew what he was getting into. He also has tons of money i.e. looking to buy the NETS so lets not shed a tear for him. Now from 1994 to 2001 we suffered thru some horrible seasons, my point was whats a few more? It's better than where we are now--middle of the road. I'll take that team over the team we have now any day of the week. And as far as defense goes I'll take Chara over ANY one of our guys now. I guess I just can't understand why in the world Milbury traded Luongo when it was apparent he was a #1. The only reason was because he wanted to make a big splash in the draft. But it was'nt a smart hockey decision. Now I hope the isles do well--I think they are going in the right direction but until wang decides to put more $$ into the team to take us over the top we will continue to be average. I think wang will do nothing and wait for the labor wars to work themselves out--a cap most likely--and that means don't get your hopes up fans. This year we will be a team anywhere from 5-9 and not going very far in the playoffs. If you guys like that fine but don't kid yourselves into thinking we will be anything more than that. Most fans already realize this!!!!

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10-30-2003, 12:46 PM
  #14
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yeah, you're right that it has been beaten to death, but it will probably continue that way unless they bring in that sniper...

the one i can probably never get over (not on your list) is todd bertuzzi...

milbury was brutal with him and it really affected bertuzzi's game while on the island... then you look at the patience he's shown kvasha... maybe he's mellowed or come to the realization that kvasha has to work...

dealing connolly is something i could live with...

that team probably would have struggled some too unless they brought in some veteran leadership...

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10-30-2003, 01:09 PM
  #15
Trottier
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Quote:
Originally Posted by disles1
...Now from 1994 to 2001 we suffered thru some horrible seasons, my point was whats a few more? It's better than where we are now--middle of the road....

....until wang decides to put more $$ into the team to take us over the top we will continue to be average.
I disagree with the first point highlighted above; agree 100% with your second point.

To become a winner, you have to start winning...somewhere. You may not like the strategy that NYI has taken, building a core primarily from players acquired via trade as opposed to youth developed from within. Fair enough. But in no way is it guaranteed to produce less results moving forward than a team comprised of prospects.

If the commitment of resources to move the team to the next step is not made (and that is not simply acquiring high-priced talent from outside the organization), then, yes, as you state, mediocrity or something close to it, will be the ongoing result.

But let's "fantasize" for a moment. A different one than your's.

Suppose Papineau and/or Hunter and/or Weinhandl develop over the next couple of seasons into productive 20 goal / 45 point player(s)....

Suppose Kvasha plays the remaining 71 games this year (and future seasons) like he has the first nine....

Suppose Hamrlik is re-signed and the talented top 4 D, like Dallas and NJ's corps of recent years, play years together, instead of the combined 20 or so games they've had so far....

Suppose Bruno G. makes the step in a season or two, adding even more depth to that group....

Suppose Rick DiPietro realizes his potential. (Absolutely no reason not to believe that he won't; certainly nothing to change anyone's mind for the worse based on the first three weeks of his first full NHL season!)....

Finally, let's suppose that the aforementioned developments leave NYI with excess talent to make the moves required to obtain "missing pieces" in trades.

Granted, the new CBA hangs over all of this, as it does every other NHL team's future fortunes.

But while this scenario is clearly optimistic, it is less "wishful" than the success you assigned to the roster of shiny young prospects that NYI let get away.

And, it is a scenario that could evolve within a quicker timeframe.

Not saying the future for that make believe team would not be promising. Am saying that the present and future for this current squad is not nearly as pessimistic as suggested.

Just my opinion.

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10-30-2003, 02:17 PM
  #16
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On your point of "why move Loungo?" I can give some insight.

Turn the clocks back to the 2000 draft (and the articles written about it).

From what I remember reading and hearing in interviews Mike wanted to make a trade to help his team improve quickly, but was finding the value of the #1 pick was not what he hoped. With no clear cut #1 player and neither of the top two blowing the scocks off of any scout.

Heatly was seen as a potential power forward if he could improve his skating. Also it was noted that he did not use his body effectively for a player of his size.

Gaborik was a player who had great skills and played against men, but his courage in traffic was a major concern. It was clear he had the skills to someday play in the NHL but many scouts questioned his willingness to go where he had to to score. IF he remained a perimeter player it would greatly reduce his effectiveness at the NHL level.

(take a quick fast forward to today and those worries look simply foolish, but hindsight is always 20/20)

Also making waves was the young goalie from BU who put up great numbers for a freshman (2.45 GAA 18W 5L 5T 0.913 SP%), had a strong world juniors for the US team, and was what one scout called "The best puckhandling goalie ever". Cocky and brash, his declaring himself eligible for the draft ment he could not go back to BU the following year because of his age. His birthdate missed the cutoff date by four days. Add to that Mike did not like Roberto's ability to handle the puck and Rick looked even better to him.

Mike liked DiPietro's skills and was not getting solid offers for the first so he thought up trading Loungo and picking Rick. I won't go into that trade because its been beaten to death everywhere on the net. The thing that really left me bitter on draft day was seeing that several GM's were shocked that Roberto was moved and wished they had known he was on the market.

That said, the Biggest mistake was thinking DP could jump right in and be as good as Roberto. Only two years removes from the US Jr. National Team he found himself in the NHL. We all know what happened there. In a word, ugly.

Now after properly developing Rick looks like the good goalie with great reflexes and amazing puck skills he was touted as when he was drafted. Hopefully for us Isles fans he is able to make Mad Mike look like a genius instead of the fool we have come to expect.

-Tiki

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10-30-2003, 03:26 PM
  #17
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Originally Posted by disles1
Now from 1994 to 2001 we suffered thru some horrible seasons, my point was whats a few more? It's better than where we are now--middle of the road.
That's a lot easier to say now than it was back when this team finished 30th in Wang's first season as owner after seven straight years out of the playoffs. The New York Islanders are an established franchise, with a proud tradition winning championships. They are a New York based team, complete with the expectations of New York fans who expect results and use the other successful teams in the area as a barometer.

The Islanders had a dynasty here longer than any pro sports team with more consecutive playoff series wins than any other. They were also the first team to win the cup in New York in 1980. What folks may not remember is this team reached the semi-finals, finals or won the cup in nine of ten straight seasons.

This is not an expansion area for professional sports.

After winning four straight championships a generation of fans (which still make up a percentage of the fans) know nothing less is really acceptable after a point.

They got the fans interested with winning the first year and regressed in the second but made the playoffs, now more is expected and soon and not just a one-time run to the semi-finals like 1992-93.

Which means MM has to make more of less and he has to do what other teams do with small budgets and produce a team that can achieve those high expectations. Easy? No. Expected? Absolutely.

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10-31-2003, 12:33 PM
  #18
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I would rather have this team, then a team we would have had if we did nothing lets look at the trades.

We picked up Aucoin for Biron (the draft pick on Khartinov are a wask). Adrian Aucoin for Matheiu Biron, thats an EXCELLENT EXCELLENT Deal, no question about it. (Isles better deal)

Hamrlik for Brewer Hammer is better ofeensivley, better in his owzn zone, brewer has been a dissapointment in Edm, Hammer is a FA at the end of the year, I do think the Isles will sign him & would rather have Hammer. (Isles better deal)

the luongo Joikenen trade, for Kvasha, parrish & the d.p Dipietro Well Jokinen was never going to do anything hear period. It wasn't going to happen, he needs someone to light a fire under his @$$ like Keenan did. Kvasha has played real well so far this year 7 is playing with heart & I'm someone who was calling for his head last year, but he looks like he will become a good solid player. On Joikinen's level probably not, but Olli was simply not going to work here. Parrish is someone that will score 25-30 goals a year. As far as the hwole Dipietro Heeatly/ Gaborik thing goel well look Heatley & Gaborik are better now, but goalies typically take longer to develop. Dipietro may wind up being the biggest impact player of the 3 he may not, he may wind up being better tan Luongo the kid does have the tools. (edge Fla, but jury still out)

Blake for a conditonal draft pick. Do I even need to make a comment on this one?? If you think this wasn't an excellent deal do the world a favor & kill yourself. (Much better for Isles)

Peca for Connolly & Pyatt- Connolly has been a huge bust so far & now has concussion problems. Pyatt does look like he is starting to reak out of it this year, but its hard to tell. Neither of them come even close to bringing the impact Peca does do this team. Pyatt may wind up putting up better #'s, but Peca's all around play is insanley valuable to this team. Thats why he struggled so much in his absence last year & when he wasn't himself playing hurt. (better deal for Isles)

Yashin for Chara Spezza & Muckalt. Muckalt was a throw in. Chara was terrible on the Island. he showed some sings, but most of the time just looked like a big goof on skates that could hit, he has improved vastly in Ottawa & is a much better skater, but hwe showed very few signs of that on the Island. Speeza looks fgood so far & has a promising career, but he isn't going to give you the impact Yashin does. Yashin can be absolutley dominant at times & if he plays as hard as he can he can (which he has been doing this year) be one of the top players in the NHL (Right now draw, future edge to Sens if Speeza becomes a star, but jury still out.

Niinimma for Isbister & Torres Torres does look good so far in Edm, but where exactly what he fit on our team?? We have a bunch of good young players as is. Also Torres looks like a 3rd line player. I think he will have a sold career but not elite status 20-225 maybe 30 goal scorer. Isbister, has just lost it, yea he just had the GWG, but he is someone who isn't ever going to be anything more than a marginal player. Niinimma is a very good defensman, good on both ends of the ice, improves our D core quite a bit. (better deal Isles for ow, most likley Isles in the future unless Torres becomes a 40 goal scorer which I don't think he will be)

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10-31-2003, 11:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Smash255
Blake for a conditonal draft pick. Do I even need to make a comment on this one?? If you think this wasn't an excellent deal do the world a favor & kill yourself.


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