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Ogopogo's Greatest Playmakers - Updated for '05 - '06

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Old
04-22-2006, 10:17 AM
  #1
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Ogopogo's Greatest Playmakers - Updated for '05 - '06

Players that have moved up this year are bolded.

Of note, Thornton and Spezza made major moves and Crosby joins the list as a rookie.

Greatest Playmakers

1 Wayne Gretzky
2 Gordie Howe
3 Adam Oates
4 Frank Boucher
5 Mario Lemieux
6 Andy Bathgate
7 Phil Esposito
8 Stan Mikita
9 Bobby Orr
10 Bill Cowley
11 Jean Beliveau
12 Ted Lindsay
Elmer Lach
14 Jaromir Jagr
15 Paul Coffey
16 Marcel Dionne
17 Bryan Trottier
Guy Lafleur
19 Bobby Clarke
20 Cy Denneny
21 Ron Francis
22 Alex Delvecchio
23 Howie Morenz
24 Peter Forsberg
25 Peter Stastny
Art Chapman
27 Max Bentley
Doug Bentley
Joe Sakic
30 Sid Abel
31 Aurel Joliat
Joe Primeau
33 Phil Watson
34 Bert Olmstead
35 Reg Noble
36 Milt Schmidt
37 Henri Richard
Denis Savard
39 Mark Messier
40 Paul Ronty
41 Syl Apps
42 Billy Taylor
Dickie Moore
44 David Schriner
Doug Gilmour
46 Joe Thornton
Buddy O'Connor
Ted Kennedy
King Clancy
50 Corb Denneny
51 Frank Nighbor
52 Newsy Lalonde
53 Clint Smith
Dale Hawerchuk
Pierre Pilote
56 Reginald Smith
57 Jean Ratelle
Ray Bourque
59 Bernie Federko
Bobby Rousseau
61 Harry Cameron
62 Rod Gilbert
63 Marty Barry
64 Gilbert Perreault
Pete Mahovlich
Steve Yzerman
Mark Recchi
Louis Berlinquette
Bill Boucher
Doug Harvey
71 Paul Haynes
72 Doug Weight
Red Kelly
74 Ace Bailey
Bill Gadsby
Phil Goyette
77 Elwyn Romnes
78 Eddie Gerard
Ken Randall
Don McKenny
Bill Hay
82 Bobby Hull
Eddie Shore
84 Brian Leetch
Frederick Cook
86 Jason Allison
Syd Howe
88 Brad Richards
Nicklas Lidstrom

Norm Ullman
Denis Potvin
Herbie Lewis
Harry Broadbent
94 Edmond Bouchard
Dick Irvin
Jack McKell
Gus Bodnar
98 Leo Reise, Sr.
Bill Cook
Scott Gomez
Martin St. Louis
Barry Pederson
Earl Reibel
Bill Thoms
105 Cecil Dye
106 Fred Stanfield
107 Jason Spezza
Bryan Hextall
Bernie Geoffrion
Don Raleigh
Roy Conacher
Bill Mosienko
Johnny Bucyk
Kent Nilsson
Mike Bossy
Norm Gainor
Ralph Weiland
Andrew Blair
Larry Aurie
Norman Himes
Neil Colville
122 Toe Blake
123 Wayne Cashman
Syl Apps, Jr
Larry Robinson
Darryl Sittler
Craig Janney
Pat Lafontaine
129 George Boucher
130 Corey Stillman
Martin Straka
Jozef Stumpel
Paul Kariya
Teemu Selanne
Tom Williams
Dennis Hextall
Bernie Nicholls
Al MacInnis
Sprague Cleghorn
Joe Matte
Jack Adams
Lionel Hitchman
Bert Corbeau
Hap Day
Gerry Lowrey
George Hay
Gordie Drillion
Edgar Laprade
Herb Cain
Cecil Dillon
151 Marc Savard
Frank Fredrickson
Ebbie Goodfellow
Harvey Jackson
Bob Gracie
Tommy Anderson
Ab DeMarco
George Sullivan
Bob MacMillan
160 Didier Pitre
Eric Lindros
162 Bobby Bauer
Bep Guidolin
Walt Tkaczuk
Ken Hodge
Pit Martin
Borje Salming
Tim Young
Sergei Zubov
170 Paul Thompson
171 Harry Meeking
Carol Wilson
Don Grosso
Alex Kaleta
Alex Tanguay
Murray Oliver
Vic Hadfield
178 Charlie Conacher
Johnny Gagnon
Viktor Kozlov
Neal Broten
Dennis Maruk
Pat Stapleton
Fleming Mackell
Metro Prystai
Maurice Richard
187 Sylvio Mantha
Art Jackson
Larry Wilson
Andre Boudrias
Pavol Demitra
Vaclav Prospal
Markus Naslund
Mike Modano
195 George Prodgers
196 Lawrence Northcott
197 Billy Reay
Adam Brown
Jack Darragh
JG Talbot
Claude Provost
JP Parise
Gary Suter
Rob Brown
205 Lynn Patrick
Theoren Fleury
207 Lionel Conacher
208 Albert Seibert
Nels Stewart
Woody Dumart
Alex Schibicky
Carson Cooper
Hec Kilrea
Eddie Wares
Ed Litzenberger
Terry O'Reilly
Jacques Lemaire
Mike Rogers
Dave Babych
220 Johnny Gottselig
221 Sidney Crosby
Dit Clapper
Jim Thomson
Bud Poile
Gaye Stewart
Frank Mahovlich
Ab McDonald
Brad Park
Ron Schock
Bobby Smith
John Cullen
232 Ted Hampson
Jude Drouin
JC Tremblay
Eddie Wiseman
236 Babe Pratt
Don Gallinger
Bronco Horvath
Harold Cotton
Blake Dunlop
Randy Carlyle
Kevin Stevens
Phil Housley
Joe Juneau
245 Jack McDonald
246 Bert McCaffrey
Gordon Keats
John Sheppard
Art Gagne
Ott Heller
251 Harry Mummery
Joe Malone
Harold March
Jimmy Ward

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Old
04-29-2006, 02:43 AM
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What is this list based on? Forsberg at 24 is wayyy too low. He is top 5-10 easily.

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04-29-2006, 07:35 AM
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Long list..but gotta question pretty much every name at every position after Wayne Gretzky.

I respect many of your posts but Victor Kozlov? JP Parise? Dave Babych??? C'mon...

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Old
04-29-2006, 08:57 AM
  #4
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I like it that you make these list. Anyone have a link too your credentials for points etc...

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04-29-2006, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Krm500
I like it that you make these list. Anyone have a link too your credentials for points etc...
Just check a little further down the page. I have goals, assists and points lists.

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04-29-2006, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reaper
What is this list based on? Forsberg at 24 is wayyy too low. He is top 5-10 easily.
Injuries have derailed his career. This is based on career production in combination with excellence. So, as a pure playmaker, Forsberg ratest very high but, his career production is much farther down because of injury.

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04-29-2006, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David
Long list..but gotta question pretty much every name at every position after Wayne Gretzky.

I respect many of your posts but Victor Kozlov? JP Parise? Dave Babych??? C'mon...
Do the research. All of those players were very good at one point or another during their careers.

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04-29-2006, 11:41 PM
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo
Do the research. All of those players were very good at one point or another during their careers.
Perhaps you should take your own advice...

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Old
04-30-2006, 12:45 AM
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David
Perhaps you should take your own advice...
If there's one thing that Ogopogo has done for these lists, it's his research. I don't know how you define research, but if trying to nail down the top seven playmakers since 1917-18 isn't research, I don't know what is.

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04-30-2006, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by God Bless Canada
If there's one thing that Ogopogo has done for these lists, it's his research. I don't know how you define research, but if trying to nail down the top seven playmakers since 1917-18 isn't research, I don't know what is.
I just noticed names like JP Parise who was more of an agitator (remember the guy who almost tomahawked the ref in '72 summit series) being on the list along with some other old time players who are unlikely characters to show up on this list.

Then when I started really looking at the numbers, this list just made me cringe then laugh.

Here is an easy example to illustrate why it's clear that this list is not entirely objective based on research but more subjective.

Why is Janney ahead of Lafontaine? And why is Allison ahead of both of these guys?

Pat Lafontaine
1986-87 New-York Islanders NHL 80 38 32 70 70 14 5 7 12 10
1987-88 New-York Islanders NHL 75 47 45 92 52 6 4 5 9 8
1988-89 New-York Islanders NHL 79 45 43 88 26 -- -- -- -- --
1989-90 New-York Islanders NHL 74 54 51 105 38 2 0 1 1 0
1990-91 New-York Islanders NHL 75 41 44 85 42 -- -- -- -- --
1991-92 Buffalo Sabres NHL 57 46 47 93 98 7 8 3 11 4
1992-93 Buffalo Sabres NHL 84 53 95 148 63 7 2 10 12 0
1995-96 Buffalo Sabres NHL 76 40 51 91 36 -- -- -- -- --
Craig Janney
1988-89 Boston Bruins NHL 62 16 46 62 12 10 4 9 13 21
1989-90 Boston Bruins NHL 55 24 38 62 4 18 3 19 22 2
1990-91 Boston Bruins NHL 77 26 66 92 8 18 4 18 22 11
1991-92 Boston Bruins NHL 53 12 39 51 20 -- -- -- -- --
1991-92 St. Louis Blues NHL 25 6 30 36 2 6 0 6 6 0
1992-93 St. Louis Blues NHL 84 24 82 106 12 11 2 9 11 0
1993-94 St. Louis Blues NHL 69 16 68 84 24 4 1 3 4 0
1994-95 St. Louis Blues NHL 8 2 5 7 0 -- -- -- -- --
1994-95 San Jose Sharks NHL 27 5 15 20 10 11 3 4 7 4
1995-96 San Jose Sharks NHL 71 13 49 62 26 -- -- -- -- --


Jason Allison

1996-97 Boston Bruins NHL 19 3 9 12 9 -- -- -- -- --
1997-98 Boston Bruins NHL 81 33 50 83 60 6 2 6 8 4
1998-99 Boston Bruins NHL 82 23 53 76 68 12 2 9 11 6
1999-00 Boston Bruins NHL 37 10 18 28 20 -- -- -- -- --
2000-01 Boston Bruins NHL 82 36 59 95 85 -- -- -- -- --
2001-02 Los-Angeles Kings NHL 73 19 55 74 68 7 3 3 6 4


And now that I look more closely, how do you POSSIBLY JUSTIFY having Joe Thornton ahead of Stevie Yzerman on this list?????

Thornton
1997-98 Boston Bruins NHL 55 3 4 7 19 6 0 0 0 9
1998-99 Boston Bruins NHL 81 16 25 41 69 11 3 6 9 4
1999-00 Boston Bruins NHL 81 23 37 60 82 -- -- -- -- --
2000-01 Boston Bruins NHL 72 37 34 71 107 -- -- -- -- --
2001-02 Boston Bruins NHL 66 22 46 68 127 6 2 4 6 10
2002-03 Boston Bruins NHL 77 36 65 101 109 5 1 2 3 4
2003-04 Boston Bruins NHL 77 23 50 73 98 7 0 0 0 14
2004-05 Davos Swiss- 40 10 44 54 80 14 4 21 25 29
2005-06 Boston Bruins NHL 23 9 24 33 6
2005-06 San Jose Sharks NHL 58 20 72 92 55

Stevie Y.
1983-84 Detroit Red Wings NHL 80 39 48 87 33 4 3 3 6 0
1984-85 Detroit Red Wings NHL 80 30 59 89 58 3 2 1 3 2
1985-86 Detroit Red Wings NHL 51 14 28 42 16 -- -- -- -- --
1986-87 Detroit Red Wings NHL 80 31 59 90 43 16 5 13 18 8
1987-88 Detroit Red Wings NHL 64 50 52 102 44 3 1 3 4 6
1988-89 Detroit Red Wings NHL 80 65 90 155 61 6 5 5 10 2
1989-90 Detroit Red Wings NHL 79 62 65 127 79 -- -- -- -- --
1990-91 Detroit Red Wings NHL 80 51 57 108 34 7 3 3 6 4
1991-92 Detroit Red Wings NHL 79 45 58 103 64 11 3 5 8 12
1992-93 Detroit Red Wings NHL 84 58 79 137 44 7 4 3 7 4
1993-94 Detroit Red Wings NHL 58 24 58 82 36 3 1 3 4 0
1994-95 Detroit Red Wings NHL 47 12 26 38 40 15 4 8 12 0
1995-96 Detroit Red Wings NHL 80 36 59 95 64 18 8 12 20 4
1996-97 Detroit Red Wings NHL 81 22 63 85 78 20 7 6 13 4
1997-98 Detroit Red Wings NHL 75 24 45 69 46 22 6 18 24 22
1998-99 Detroit Red Wings NHL 80 29 45 74 42 10 9 4 13 0
1999-00 Detroit Red Wings NHL 78 35 44 79 34 8 0 4 4 0

Gimme a break!!!

So I go back to asking the poster to take his own advice before handing out advices to someone else.

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Old
04-30-2006, 11:55 AM
  #11
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why isnt tie domi on the list jk

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04-30-2006, 12:00 PM
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Janney had more assists than LaFontaine in his career despite playing over 100 fewer games. He may have been one of the softest, least physical players in history, but he was an artist when it came to passing the puck.

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04-30-2006, 12:18 PM
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Wow! Lemieux should be right behind wayne IMO (rob brown, warren young......).

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04-30-2006, 02:38 PM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David
I just noticed names like JP Parise who was more of an agitator (remember the guy who almost tomahawked the ref in '72 summit series) being on the list along with some other old time players who are unlikely characters to show up on this list.

Then when I started really looking at the numbers, this list just made me cringe then laugh.

Here is an easy example to illustrate why it's clear that this list is not entirely objective based on research but more subjective.

Why is Janney ahead of Lafontaine? And why is Allison ahead of both of these guys?

Pat Lafontaine
1986-87 New-York Islanders NHL 80 38 32 70 70 14 5 7 12 10
1987-88 New-York Islanders NHL 75 47 45 92 52 6 4 5 9 8
1988-89 New-York Islanders NHL 79 45 43 88 26 -- -- -- -- --
1989-90 New-York Islanders NHL 74 54 51 105 38 2 0 1 1 0
1990-91 New-York Islanders NHL 75 41 44 85 42 -- -- -- -- --
1991-92 Buffalo Sabres NHL 57 46 47 93 98 7 8 3 11 4
1992-93 Buffalo Sabres NHL 84 53 95 148 63 7 2 10 12 0
1995-96 Buffalo Sabres NHL 76 40 51 91 36 -- -- -- -- --
Craig Janney
1988-89 Boston Bruins NHL 62 16 46 62 12 10 4 9 13 21
1989-90 Boston Bruins NHL 55 24 38 62 4 18 3 19 22 2
1990-91 Boston Bruins NHL 77 26 66 92 8 18 4 18 22 11
1991-92 Boston Bruins NHL 53 12 39 51 20 -- -- -- -- --
1991-92 St. Louis Blues NHL 25 6 30 36 2 6 0 6 6 0
1992-93 St. Louis Blues NHL 84 24 82 106 12 11 2 9 11 0
1993-94 St. Louis Blues NHL 69 16 68 84 24 4 1 3 4 0
1994-95 St. Louis Blues NHL 8 2 5 7 0 -- -- -- -- --
1994-95 San Jose Sharks NHL 27 5 15 20 10 11 3 4 7 4
1995-96 San Jose Sharks NHL 71 13 49 62 26 -- -- -- -- --


Jason Allison

1996-97 Boston Bruins NHL 19 3 9 12 9 -- -- -- -- --
1997-98 Boston Bruins NHL 81 33 50 83 60 6 2 6 8 4
1998-99 Boston Bruins NHL 82 23 53 76 68 12 2 9 11 6
1999-00 Boston Bruins NHL 37 10 18 28 20 -- -- -- -- --
2000-01 Boston Bruins NHL 82 36 59 95 85 -- -- -- -- --
2001-02 Los-Angeles Kings NHL 73 19 55 74 68 7 3 3 6 4


And now that I look more closely, how do you POSSIBLY JUSTIFY having Joe Thornton ahead of Stevie Yzerman on this list?????

Thornton
1997-98 Boston Bruins NHL 55 3 4 7 19 6 0 0 0 9
1998-99 Boston Bruins NHL 81 16 25 41 69 11 3 6 9 4
1999-00 Boston Bruins NHL 81 23 37 60 82 -- -- -- -- --
2000-01 Boston Bruins NHL 72 37 34 71 107 -- -- -- -- --
2001-02 Boston Bruins NHL 66 22 46 68 127 6 2 4 6 10
2002-03 Boston Bruins NHL 77 36 65 101 109 5 1 2 3 4
2003-04 Boston Bruins NHL 77 23 50 73 98 7 0 0 0 14
2004-05 Davos Swiss- 40 10 44 54 80 14 4 21 25 29
2005-06 Boston Bruins NHL 23 9 24 33 6
2005-06 San Jose Sharks NHL 58 20 72 92 55

Stevie Y.
1983-84 Detroit Red Wings NHL 80 39 48 87 33 4 3 3 6 0
1984-85 Detroit Red Wings NHL 80 30 59 89 58 3 2 1 3 2
1985-86 Detroit Red Wings NHL 51 14 28 42 16 -- -- -- -- --
1986-87 Detroit Red Wings NHL 80 31 59 90 43 16 5 13 18 8
1987-88 Detroit Red Wings NHL 64 50 52 102 44 3 1 3 4 6
1988-89 Detroit Red Wings NHL 80 65 90 155 61 6 5 5 10 2
1989-90 Detroit Red Wings NHL 79 62 65 127 79 -- -- -- -- --
1990-91 Detroit Red Wings NHL 80 51 57 108 34 7 3 3 6 4
1991-92 Detroit Red Wings NHL 79 45 58 103 64 11 3 5 8 12
1992-93 Detroit Red Wings NHL 84 58 79 137 44 7 4 3 7 4
1993-94 Detroit Red Wings NHL 58 24 58 82 36 3 1 3 4 0
1994-95 Detroit Red Wings NHL 47 12 26 38 40 15 4 8 12 0
1995-96 Detroit Red Wings NHL 80 36 59 95 64 18 8 12 20 4
1996-97 Detroit Red Wings NHL 81 22 63 85 78 20 7 6 13 4
1997-98 Detroit Red Wings NHL 75 24 45 69 46 22 6 18 24 22
1998-99 Detroit Red Wings NHL 80 29 45 74 42 10 9 4 13 0
1999-00 Detroit Red Wings NHL 78 35 44 79 34 8 0 4 4 0

Gimme a break!!!

So I go back to asking the poster to take his own advice before handing out advices to someone else.
The thing you are failing to account for is the level of scoring from season to season.

I could site example after example but, I won't. I will give just a couple.

Take a look at Yzerman's best assist year. He had 90 assists in 1989 - the high scoring 80s. That put him 3rd in the NHL in assists.

Take a look at Thornton's best assist year. He had 96 assists in 2006 - a much lower scoring season than 1989. He blew away the field as second place had 71.

How exactly is Yzerman's season more impressive than Thornton's? It isn't. Thornton's 2006 was significantly better than Yzerman's 1989 on the assist chart.

I could site many other examples but, that is the reason. Finishing as the best playmaker in the league is better than finishing 3rd - NO MATTER WHAT THE TOTAL IS. Different eras had different levels of scoring and that muddies the water. My system eliminates the mud and lets you see THE IMPACT of a player's assists.

Joe Thornton is more dominant in the assist column than Yzerman was. That is why he is ahead on my list.

You just don't understand and that is fine. I hope this helps.

P.S. JP Parise finished 6th in the NHL in assists in 1969-70 ahead of such bums as: Stan Mikita, Alex Delvecchio, Jean Ratelle and Norm Ullman. Not bad for a guy who is just an agitator, eh?

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04-30-2006, 05:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo
Take a look at Yzerman's best assist year. He had 90 assists in 1989 - the high scoring 80s. That put him 3rd in the NHL in assists.

Take a look at Thornton's best assist year. He had 96 assists in 2006 - a much lower scoring season than 1989. He blew away the field as second place had 71.
Yzerman's 90 assist was 3rd only because Gretzky and Lemieux were playing at that time and they were the only ones that bested him. If you take away the guys who were playing with Gretzky and Lemieux that year ( Coffey 83, Bernie Nicholl 80, Rob Brown 66) the next guy is Joey Mullen at 59 (who by the way, I don't believe is even on your list ).

Yzerman's 90 to Mullen's 59. That's still a bigger spread than Thornton this year.

More importantly, Thornton had ONE really good year. Look at Yzerman's body of work. THERE IS NO COMPARISON!!!

And this is just one example of why I find your list to be lacking in research...there are ALOT more!!!

I guess I just don't understand because this list is very flawed.


Last edited by David: 04-30-2006 at 06:24 PM.
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04-30-2006, 06:17 PM
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Ogopogo,

I've just got a general question regarding your lists of the greatest players of all time (not this specific list).

Wouldn't your system favour guys who's offensive stats lean more to one end of the goal/assists spectrum or the other?

Just as an example, would Scott Gomez's 2004 season of 14 goals and 56 assists rank him higer than, say, Mats Sundin who had 31 goals and 44 assists that year? While Gomez was first in the league in assists, he actually produced less points than Sundin who was not top-10 in either category. Obviously the greatest players will rise above, but do you think it's a little biased against guys who have more even production?

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04-30-2006, 09:16 PM
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David
Yzerman's 90 assist was 3rd only because Gretzky and Lemieux were playing at that time and they were the only ones that bested him. If you take away the guys who were playing with Gretzky and Lemieux that year ( Coffey 83, Bernie Nicholl 80, Rob Brown 66) the next guy is Joey Mullen at 59 (who by the way, I don't believe is even on your list ).

Yzerman's 90 to Mullen's 59. That's still a bigger spread than Thornton this year.

More importantly, Thornton had ONE really good year. Look at Yzerman's body of work. THERE IS NO COMPARISON!!!

And this is just one example of why I find your list to be lacking in research...there are ALOT more!!!

I guess I just don't understand because this list is very flawed.
You don't understand it because you have a very different definition of greatness than I do.

I don't see building up large career totals by playing a long time as greatness. I suppose you do and that is your right.

I see an accumulation of great seasons as greatness. Steve Yzerman had 4 seasons where he accumulated credit on my system for assists. He was 3rd in assists once, tied for 3rd in assists once, 7th once and tied for 7th once. Thornton finished 2nd once and finished 1st once - by a very wide margin. Thornton's great assist seasons are better than Yzerman's.

Your argument "If we take away 5 of the top 6 assist guys during the 89-90 season, Yzerman was way ahead of the pack" is laughable. ANY player looks better when the five best players in the league are removed. That is just foolishness.

You say Yzerman was buried behind Gretzky and Lemieux. OK. Why did he finish 3rd in assists only twice in his career? Why could he never finish higher than 7th ever again?

Thornton is up against one of the greatest players of all time in Jaromir Jagr - and he blew him away on the assist chart. Jagr, the 14th greatest playmaker of all time and Thornton finished 27 assists ahead of him. He also finished ahead of Spezza - a guy who will likely end up as one of the 10 best playmakers ever - by 25 assists. Thornton was GREAT this year as a playmaker.

Thornton is a more dominant playmaker than Yzerman was. If you choose to go by Yzerman's bloated career totals from playing a long time during the 80s, so be it. Thornton's impact as a playmaker is greater than that of Yzerman.

Not sure if I can explain it any clearer than that.


Last edited by Ogopogo*: 04-30-2006 at 09:35 PM.
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Old
04-30-2006, 09:21 PM
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arrbez
Ogopogo,

I've just got a general question regarding your lists of the greatest players of all time (not this specific list).

Wouldn't your system favour guys who's offensive stats lean more to one end of the goal/assists spectrum or the other?

Just as an example, would Scott Gomez's 2004 season of 14 goals and 56 assists rank him higer than, say, Mats Sundin who had 31 goals and 44 assists that year? While Gomez was first in the league in assists, he actually produced less points than Sundin who was not top-10 in either category. Obviously the greatest players will rise above, but do you think it's a little biased against guys who have more even production?
Great question.

Actually, the way I have designed the system is to give equal weight to accomplishments in the goals column, assists column and points column. Those are all worth 1/3 each of a players "scoring" rating.

Originally, I only used the points column in my ratings but, I saw how that completely robbed great one-dimensional goal scorers like Peter Bondra and one-dimensional playmakers like Adam Oates. Using all 3 weighted equally does give these players the credit they deserve and does not give them too much credit for their accomplishments.

I hope that makes sense.

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04-30-2006, 09:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo
You don't understand it because you have a very different definition of greatness than I do.

I don't see building up large career totals by playing a long time as greatness. I suppose you do and that is your right.

I see an accumulation of great seasons as greatness. Steve Yzerman had 4 seasons where he accumulated credit on my system for assists. He was 3rd in assists once, tied for 3rd in assists once, 7th once and tied for 7th once. Thornton finished 2nd once and finished 1st once - by a very wide margin. Thornton's great assist seasons are better than Yzermans'.

Your argument "If we take away 5 of the top 6 assist guys during the 89-90 season, Yzerman was way ahead of the pack" is laughable. ANY player looks better when the five best players in the league are removed. That is just foolishness.

You say Yzerman was behind Gretzky and Lemieux. OK. Why did he finish 3rd in assists only twice in his career? Why could he never finish higher than 7th ever again?

Thornton is up against one of the greatest players of all time in Jaromir Jagr - and he blew him away on the assist chart. Jagr, the 14th greatest playmaker of all time and Thornton finished 27 assists ahead of him. He also finished ahead of Spezza - a guy who will likely end up as one of the 10 best playmakers ever - by 25 assists. Thornton was GREAT this year as a playmaker.

Thornton is a more dominant playmaker than Yzerman was. If you choose to go by Yzerman's bloated career totals from playing a long time during the 80s, so be it. Thornton's impact as a playmaker is greater than that of Yzerman.

Not sure if I can explain it any clearer than that.
No I don't understand because your list is very much subjective, but more importantly seriously flawed...not only that, you are missing many players...and you have some ridiculous players on the list that do not belong...lack of research I'd say.

And any time you have to write paragraph after paragraph to try to explain away the obvious, you can bet that it's seriously flawed.

Let me just say that Jagr is no Gretzky...or even Lemieux. You tell me where Thornton will be on the assist list today if Gretz and Lemieux were in their prime today like back in '89...3rd, or more likely 4th or 5th or 6th with Gretz and Lemieux's linemates being above him...

Get back to me when Thornton has 3 or 4 more seasons like this season then we'll talk about whether Thornton holds a candle to Yzerman...otherwise, and I didn't wanna have to say this until your condescending tone of your - go do some research - but as is, your list is pretty much garbage.

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04-30-2006, 09:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David
No I don't understand because your list is very much subjective, but more importantly seriously flawed...not only that, you are missing many players...and you have some ridiculous players on the list that do not belong...lack of research I'd say.

And any time you have to write paragraph after paragraph to try to explain away the obvious, you can bet that it's seriously flawed.

Let me just say that Jagr is no Gretzky...or even Lemieux. You tell me where Thornton will be on the assist list today if Gretz and Lemieux were in their prime today like back in '89...3rd, or more likely 4th or 5th or 6th with Gretz and Lemieux's linemates being above him...

Get back to me when Thornton has 3 or 4 more seasons like this season then we'll talk about whether Thornton holds a candle to Yzerman...otherwise, and I didn't wanna have to say this until your condescending tone of your - go do some research - but as is, your list is pretty much garbage.
I won't waste any more time with this discussion. Find another thread, obviously you don't want to be part of this one.

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