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Old
04-28-2006, 08:26 AM
  #26
MojoJojo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fullmak
It does help when you have the $. Sabres can't go to the playoffs every year when they were building the team they have now. They just cant buy a Forsberg, Primeau, Hatcher, Kapanen. I'm not faulting the flyers for doing so by any means but you can't expect a smaller market sabres to do the same.

Darcy Regier should be commended for his job of assembling a team like he did. Losing your top forward and top defensman from the previous year and still 3 points from 1st place. Not too shabby

Flyers salary = approx 40 million

Sabres salary = approx 28 million

and trust me if it wasn't for the salary cap the flyers would have a salary over 60 million.
Thats the result of years and years of sucking. Any day now the Pens are going to explode out of the gate once Fleury hits his stride, Malkin comes over, Kessel is drafted and signed, with Crosby leading the charge.

The only probelm with this is that once you start winning, the players start to demand more money. Virtually the entire team is composed of really good players making peanuts, with one or two exceptions like Drury. Go deep into the playoffs and you better hope the fans support stays because you will be up at the salary cap before you know it.

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Old
04-28-2006, 08:28 AM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JD SabreFan
Are you slow or something? I believe he was providing facts, not complaining about anything. Pennsylvania education must be great huh..
So your sole purpose being on this board is to insult us?

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Old
04-28-2006, 08:34 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crackerzack
merchandise sales
Merchandise sales while they may be centered around the home city also are accounted for in other cities, at least I would think that revenue would be...

People that buy jerseys that are in another city are not necessarily fans... they just buy what looks fly...

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Old
04-28-2006, 08:36 AM
  #29
CharlieGirl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Megaera
Philadelphia is a much bigger market than Buffalo.
I'm not sure that "much" bigger is the case, when you include all of WNY, northwest PA and Southern Ontario (a lot of Canadians go to Buffalo to see an NHL game because tickets are cheaper and more available than Toronto).

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Old
04-28-2006, 08:48 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowOni
I'd like to see attendances of both venues before making that judgement.
If they are comparable then I'd say the difference is in the ticket prices maybe ?
I'll do some research if I get the time...
According to ESPN :

Flyers averaged 19,653 (100.8%)
Sabres averaged 16,910 (91.2%) [<--our arena is smaller; a sellout is 18,690]
for 2005-2006.

I imagine the difference in revenue has a lot to do with ticket prices, though; the Sabres bend over backward to make it affordable for the fans to come to the game, and a friend of mine in Philly was surprised when we were talking earlier in the season about all the different ticket packages we can choose from because she said the Flyers don't have as many.

The market sizes aren't all that different in numbers, I think - when you combine all of WNY & southern Ontario, we're well over a million in population. I think probably the relative affluence/cost of living enters into it - the market here won't bear the sorts of ticket prices people can afford in other places, so even if we sold out the building every night, the team wouldn't be taking in as much money.

(Just my $.02.)
hg93

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04-28-2006, 09:26 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joshjull
Philly has always been a passionate town when it comes to hockey. Great support through thick and thin. Although has there every been much thin. I can't recall you guys having a prolonged playoff dry spell. The same can't be said here in buffalo
We missed the playoffs for 5 straight years in the early 90's. Two or three of those years with Lindros.

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Old
04-28-2006, 09:39 AM
  #32
NoGoal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie_Girl
I'm not sure that "much" bigger is the case, when you include all of WNY, northwest PA and Southern Ontario (a lot of Canadians go to Buffalo to see an NHL game because tickets are cheaper and more available than Toronto).
Philadelphia also has surrounding areas.

Here are the cities alone:

Philadelphia - population 1.5 million
Buffalo - population 250,000

I don't think the surrounding areas can make up that kind of difference.

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04-28-2006, 09:43 AM
  #33
NoGoal
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As a follow up:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffalo,_New_York

Buffalo - Niagara region has 1.1 million - that's even less than inside Philly's city limits.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philadelphia

Philadelphia Metro area has 5.7 million

I'd say it is "much" bigger.

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Old
04-28-2006, 09:56 AM
  #34
joshjull
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie_Girl
I'm not sure that "much" bigger is the case, when you include all of WNY, northwest PA and Southern Ontario (a lot of Canadians go to Buffalo to see an NHL game because tickets are cheaper and more available than Toronto).
All of WNY has about 2mil+ that inludes Rochester and its surrounding areas
The city of Philadelphia 1.5mil

The population difference is huge. But so is the wealth difference. Philly has way, way more corporate dollars its not even close. Thats is where most sports teams make their money these days. Corporations buy blocks of season tickets and of course luxury suites.

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Old
04-28-2006, 10:03 AM
  #35
CharlieGirl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joshjull
All of WNY has about 2mil+ that inludes Rochester and its surrounding areas
The city of Philadelphia 1.5mil

The population difference is huge. But so is the wealth difference. Philly has way, way more corporate dollars its not even close. Thats is where most sports teams make their money these days. Corporations buy blocks of season tickets and of course luxury suites.
Fair enough.

I do know that there are a lot of people from southern Ontario that head to Sabres games (myself included).

I hadn't considered the corporate involvement either. While it might not be as good for the team, it's better for the fans if the corporate presence is minimal. Tickets are available to people who want to see the game vs. the suits who are there because it's the thing to do.

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Old
04-28-2006, 10:04 AM
  #36
NoGoal
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This is a very interesting conversation though.

It's funny, Buffalo people really don't realize how much of a "small town" they live in... I lived there for most of my life and you just think that we are another city. We are the 2nd largest city in New York State, therefore we have to compete and be comparable to other major markets in the US.

After moving down here, I realize that people outside of Buffalo also don't realize how much of a "small town" it is. Atlanta has a Metro population of 4 million+. It's a big city. People see Buffalo sports teams and assume it's a bit smaller, but don't realize the metro population is barely over 1 million. If you include Rochester, you can get to 2 million. So, stretching it ... you can get to "big numbers".

If I "stretch" it in any major city, like Atlanta. Include places within a 1 hour driving distance. That number jumps from 4 million to 6-7 million. Buffalo is a small town. They do very well to support the Bills and Sabres. They have a market atleast 1/2 the size of major markets (probably even smaller), yet still fill the seats.

There is definitely not an even playing field for fan support or $ coming in, but for anyone to imply that Buffalo fans don't "support" their team. That is just an ignorant statement. Moving outside the city though, I can see why people outside Buffalo can have that ignorance.

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04-28-2006, 10:07 AM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie_Girl
Fair enough.

I do know that there are a lot of people from southern Ontario that head to Sabres games (myself included).

I hadn't considered the corporate involvement either. While it might not be as good for the team, it's better for the fans if the corporate presence is minimal. Tickets are available to people who want to see the game vs. the suits who are there because it's the thing to do.
Thanks for coming down. Have you enjoyed you times at the HSBC? I'm a season ticket holder for the first time this season. (finally talked the wife into it)The funny thing is I posted very early in this thread praising Flyer fans support and passion. I check the thread and like most others involving Buff/Philly it doesn't take long to devolve into nastiness.

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Old
04-28-2006, 10:19 AM
  #38
joshjull
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoGoal
This is a very interesting conversation though.

rIt's funny, Buffalo people eally don't realize how much of a "small town" they live in... I lived there for most of my life and you just think that we are another city. We are the 2nd largest city in New York State, therefore we have to compete and be comparable to other major markets in the US.

After moving down here, I realize that people outside of Buffalo also don't realize how much of a "small town" it is. Atlanta has a Metro population of 4 million+. It's a big city. People see Buffalo sports teams and assume it's a bit smaller, but don't realize the metro population is barely over 1 million. If you include Rochester, you can get to 2 million. So, stretching it ... you can get to "big numbers".

If I "stretch" it in any major city, like Atlanta. Include places within a 1 hour driving distance. That number jumps from 4 million to 6-7 million. Buffalo is a small town. They do very well to support the Bills and Sabres. They have a market atleast 1/2 the size of major markets (probably even smaller), yet still fill the seats.

There is definitely not an even playing field for fan support or $ coming in, but for anyone to imply that Buffalo fans don't "support" their team. That is just an ignorant statement. Moving outside the city though, I can see why people outside Buffalo can have that ignorance.
That is very true. I remember a debate earlier in the year when some fans thought Buffalo and Columbus were comparable markets. Columbus has a pop of about 600,000. Buffalo is about 280,00 not even close. In fact a city Toledo many people would percieve to be smaller than Buffalo is actually slightly larger. Toledo=300,000

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Old
04-28-2006, 10:53 AM
  #39
FlyersFanJS
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why is it that when we are trying to just enjoy a nice comment about us we get into this flame war as to WHY we have such good attendance.....

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04-28-2006, 10:54 AM
  #40
stazza18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowOni
I'd like to see attendances of both venues before making that judgement.
If they are comparable then I'd say the difference is in the ticket prices maybe ?
I'll do some research if I get the time...

If your gonna look at attendance though you must take into account say maybe the last 5 years (of course not including last year). Teams don't base their payrolls on the upcoming year so this year is moot. This is a real question, how was the Sabres attendance when they were losing? Looks to me by a post above that they couldn't even sell out this year. That's ridiculous. Seems that since the prices are low and they are a very exciting young team, the tickets would be hard as heck to come by.

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04-28-2006, 11:16 AM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joshjull
Thanks for coming down. Have you enjoyed you times at the HSBC? I'm a season ticket holder for the first time this season. (finally talked the wife into it)The funny thing is I posted very early in this thread praising Flyer fans support and passion. I check the thread and like most others involving Buff/Philly it doesn't take long to devolve into nastiness.
I actaully went to my first professional hockey game a couple months ago, the first time Philadelphia came to town. The crowd was pretty tame and the arena was comfortable, a little small, but comfortable none the less. It was a good time.

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Old
04-28-2006, 11:23 AM
  #42
joshjull
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stazza18
If your gonna look at attendance though you must take into account say maybe the last 5 years (of course not including last year). Teams don't base their payrolls on the upcoming year so this year is moot. This is a real question, how was the Sabres attendance when they were losing? Looks to me by a post above that they couldn't even sell out this year. That's ridiculous. Seems that since the prices are low and they are a very exciting young team, the tickets would be hard as heck to come by.
They started out slow with ticket sales. Since about Decmber they have either sold out or come very close. There are many factors that most of you don't know or understand. The previous owners(Rigas and Adelphia) absolutely destroyed the season ticket base. The Rigas by the time they went to jail had removed any incentive to be a season ticket holder. The season ticket base before the lockout was about 7900. When you only have about 8000 season tix youneed to sell 10,000 per game to sell out the arena. The new owner (Golisano) along with Managing partner Larry Quinn introduced variable pricing. The sabres have 4 different prices for the same seat the categories are value, bronze, silver and gold. The price is determined by the opponent and night of the week. They also made season tickets the value price for every game. this has helped to rebuild the season ticket base. I believe going into the playoffs they are almost to 10,000 season tix. An example of how that pricing works is my season tix are $39 per game no matter the opponent. But if someone bought a seat in my section for a gold game it would cost them $95. The Sabres also rewarded season tix holders with plaoff tickets at the same price for us (in my case $39) but for everyone else the playoffs are gold games. They must have done something right because this is the first year this team has made a profit in 15+ years.

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Old
04-28-2006, 11:25 AM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joshjull
Thanks for coming down. Have you enjoyed you times at the HSBC?
I like the HSBC - reasonable prices for tickets and parking, better than average arena food, cheap beer, and easy to get to. I had a lot of fun with the HSBC staff last weekend as well.

Edit: Just remembered something - for the first time ever, my husband had to wait in line for the washrooms last weekend and I didn't! It was great.


Last edited by CharlieGirl: 04-28-2006 at 11:37 AM.
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Old
04-28-2006, 12:00 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fullmak
It does help when you have the $. Sabres can't go to the playoffs every year when they were building the team they have now. They just cant buy a Forsberg, Primeau, Hatcher, Kapanen. I'm not faulting the flyers for doing so by any means but you can't expect a smaller market sabres to do the same.

Darcy Regier should be commended for his job of assembling a team like he did. Losing your top forward and top defensman from the previous year and still 3 points from 1st place. Not too shabby

Flyers salary = approx 40 million

Sabres salary = approx 28 million




and trust me if it wasn't for the salary cap the flyers would have a salary over 60 million.

i thought tampa wont the last cup with the lowest salary in the league

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Old
04-28-2006, 12:07 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie_Girl
Just remembered something - for the first time ever, my husband had to wait in line for the washrooms last weekend and I didn't! It was great.
Where were you sitting that you didn't have to wait in line for the washrooms? I need to get seats near there...

hg93

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Old
04-28-2006, 01:07 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joshjull
Thanks for coming down. Have you enjoyed you times at the HSBC? I'm a season ticket holder for the first time this season. (finally talked the wife into it)The funny thing is I posted very early in this thread praising Flyer fans support and passion. I check the thread and like most others involving Buff/Philly it doesn't take long to devolve into nastiness.
I was at my first HSBC game (used to visit the Aud quite frequently growing up in the Niagara area) a couple months ago as well. I didn't have the most pleasant experience with some drunken idiot fans, but they're in every arena and I can't complain for that reason. It was a ton of fun because I saw my team play live for the first time.

The only thing I didn't like about the arena itself was the glass around the playing surface. You can barely see through it because they're made of what seems like plastic and not actually glass. The give on them is HUGE when contact is made and that's good for the safety of the players, but it looks very cheap and it makes the expensive seats (that I was sitting in) not worth the money. Do you know what's up with the glass there?

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Old
04-28-2006, 01:28 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoGoal
This is a very interesting conversation though.
haha, the best sabre fan avatar i've seen

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Old
04-28-2006, 02:30 PM
  #48
joshjull
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[QUOTE=trippyime]I was at my first HSBC game (used to visit the Aud quite frequently growing up in the Niagara area) a couple months ago as well. I didn't have the most pleasant experience with some drunken idiot fans, but they're in every arena and I can't complain for that reason. It was a ton of fun because I saw my team play live for the first time.

The only thing I didn't like about the arena itself was the glass around the playing surface. You can barely see through it because they're made of what seems like plastic and not actually glass. The give on them is HUGE when contact is made and that's good for the safety of the players, but it looks very cheap and it makes the expensive seats (that I was sitting in) not worth the money. Do you know what's up with the glass there?[/QUOTE]

I believe a few years ago they switched to glass and supports that have more give. This was because the seemless glass had no give and seemed to lead to more injures. Where were you sitting. My tix are in 108 row 12 I haven't had issues with the glass.

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04-28-2006, 05:30 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joshjull
I believe a few years ago they switched to glass and supports that have more give. This was because the seemless glass had no give and seemed to lead to more injures. Where were you sitting. My tix are in 108 row 12 I haven't had issues with the glass.
I was in 116, row 5. Is it real glass? When people bang on it it really sounds like plastic.

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Old
04-28-2006, 05:40 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyersFanJS
why is it that when we are trying to just enjoy a nice comment about us we get into this flame war as to WHY we have such good attendance.....
Because these Sabre fans, who claim to be so superior in intelligence, seem to find it difficult to distinguish between our board and theirs.

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