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Future HOFers: Judge them

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Old
04-29-2006, 01:56 PM
  #1
Big Phil
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Future HOFers: Judge them

These guys are some of the most borderline HOFers that I can think of in the minds of some. Should be a healthy debate.

Joe Nieuwendyk - First off who wouldnt want Joe Nieuwendyk on their team? I would that's for sure. I was disapointed when the Leafs let him go. Here's the knock on Nieuwy. His frist four seasons were his best. In fact you could argue that his rookie season was the best he ever had. He won the Calder in '88 after getting 51 goals and 92 points. The year after that he had 51, 45, and then 45. Those were his best seasons. His career high in points is 95. He has over 1000 points and over 500 goals. He won the Conn Smythe Trophy in '99. And he has won three Cups with three teams. He scores goals when it counts, even though he's well under a point per game in the playoffs. But I have to wonder if despite his lack of elite regular seasons if he makes up for it in the playoffs with clutch play.

Mats Sundin - I rack my brain out on this one all the time. Priot to this season I'd have to say no. But he came back and led the Leafs almost to a playoff spot with one heck of a drive. It seemed as if he was the only one who was trying on that enitre team. Sure he has no Cups, but his playoff record is far from rotten. He's been a second team all-star twice ('02, '04) and has a career high of 114 points. He's already over 1100 points. Now the thing is with a guy who has never been part of a Cup win you often look at him and ask if he was ever a top 10 player in the game. I can think of one season '96-97 that he was and a bunch of others that he was right there. Throw in his remarkable play for Sweden and his recent Gold Medal and I would put Mats in there.

Mike Modano - No one has been so frustratingly consistent as Mike Modano. And when I say that consider this. In almost every full season he's had he's been in between 75-85 points. His career high is 93 (twice) and he once socred 50 goals. He's been at a point per game throughout his career. Playoffs are pretty much the same. He won a Cup in '99, played in two other finals. He was a Second team all-star in '00. Nothing else though. With Modano he frustrates you. You almost feel as if he could have gotten 100 points every year. Sure he turned into a more two way player but he still didnt even have a Selke to show for it. Is he an all-time great? No. But does he get in to the Hall. Yes I think so, and I dont think it lowers the standards just because he's there.

Doug Gilmour - The more I think about this one the more I put Gilmour in there. Yes played in Toronto so he got a lot of exposure. But here's the knocks on him. He played for 20 years, he got 1414 points in 1474 games. That's good. It bothers me that he never had any post season all-star selections. But aside from that his points seasons are impressive, 127, 111, 105, 91, 87, 86, 85. Throw in a Cup in '89 over a point a game in playoffs and the fact that in his prime he was a top ten player then I put him in there based on that.

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04-29-2006, 01:58 PM
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Gilmour and Nieuwendyk have the careers to get in (awards and point totals)

Modano and Sundin were great players but lack any real accomplishments other than Modano's cup in '99.

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04-29-2006, 02:28 PM
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Yes to Nieuwendyk and Gilmour. No to Sundin and Modano.

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04-29-2006, 03:14 PM
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A rare occasion that Ogo and I agree. First, I'll begin with the certainty: Doug Gilmour. Everyone with 1,400 points is in the HHOF. Until Turgeon hits 1,400 points, it will be an "automatic point," much like 700 goals. Few with 1,400 points excelled at all aspects of the game like Gilmour. Terrific defensively, fearless physically, a strong leader who could be used in all situations. Won a Stanley Cup, and one of the best clutch players of the last 25 years.

Nieuwendyk gets a lot of debate, but I'll say yes. One of six players to win a Cup on three different teams. He was a key player on all three Cup champions: scored 50 for Calgary in 1989, won the Conn Smythe in 1999 and was an all-round force for New Jersey in the first three rounds. The difference between Nieuwendyk and Claude Lemieux (another one of the players with Cups on three different teams, although Lemieux added a second Cup with New Jersey) is Nieuwendyk also produced in the regular season. A strong leader, a good citizen and one of the best pairs of hands of his generation (as far as puck-tipping and faceoffs are concerned), along with his regular season and playoff accomplishments, will elevate him.

I have Modano and Sundin as "not yet's." I'll start with Modano. Was the top scorer on a Cup champion, a strong two-way player and a second team all-star in 2000. But when I look at what he accomplished, and how he played the game, how is he any different than Vincent Damphousse. (Who actually has a very similar portfolio). Modano's been more productive in the latter stages of his career than Damphousse, but Steve Larmer was one of the most consistent players of the 1980s, and he's still waiting for an enshrinement that will likely never come.

Sundin's playoff portfolio is lacking. Two second team all-star selections (2002 and 2004), although neither were memorable. A consistent, year-to-year performer, but again, Larmer was wonderfully consistent. The bottom line on Sundin is he has never had that career-defining post season, in which he has elevated his play. I wouldn't call him a bad post-season player, but when has he had that series where you said "Wow, his team lost, but Sundin carried them on his back," a defining trait of the vast majority of Hall-of-Famers. He either needs a couple more top-notch seasons, like what he had in 1997, or that big-time playoffs. I will say this: he was fantastic down the stretch this season, when his team needed him, but he still needs to do it in the playoffs.

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04-29-2006, 03:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by God Bless Canada
A rare occasion that Ogo and I agree. First, I'll begin with the certainty: Doug Gilmour. Everyone with 1,400 points is in the HHOF. Until Turgeon hits 1,400 points, it will be an "automatic point," much like 700 goals. Few with 1,400 points excelled at all aspects of the game like Gilmour. Terrific defensively, fearless physically, a strong leader who could be used in all situations. Won a Stanley Cup, and one of the best clutch players of the last 25 years.

Nieuwendyk gets a lot of debate, but I'll say yes. One of six players to win a Cup on three different teams. He was a key player on all three Cup champions: scored 50 for Calgary in 1989, won the Conn Smythe in 1999 and was an all-round force for New Jersey in the first three rounds. The difference between Nieuwendyk and Claude Lemieux (another one of the players with Cups on three different teams, although Lemieux added a second Cup with New Jersey) is Nieuwendyk also produced in the regular season. A strong leader, a good citizen and one of the best pairs of hands of his generation (as far as puck-tipping and faceoffs are concerned), along with his regular season and playoff accomplishments, will elevate him.

I have Modano and Sundin as "not yet's." I'll start with Modano. Was the top scorer on a Cup champion, a strong two-way player and a second team all-star in 2000. But when I look at what he accomplished, and how he played the game, how is he any different than Vincent Damphousse. (Who actually has a very similar portfolio). Modano's been more productive in the latter stages of his career than Damphousse, but Steve Larmer was one of the most consistent players of the 1980s, and he's still waiting for an enshrinement that will likely never come.

Sundin's playoff portfolio is lacking. Two second team all-star selections (2002 and 2004), although neither were memorable. A consistent, year-to-year performer, but again, Larmer was wonderfully consistent. The bottom line on Sundin is he has never had that career-defining post season, in which he has elevated his play. I wouldn't call him a bad post-season player, but when has he had that series where you said "Wow, his team lost, but Sundin carried them on his back," a defining trait of the vast majority of Hall-of-Famers. He either needs a couple more top-notch seasons, like what he had in 1997, or that big-time playoffs. I will say this: he was fantastic down the stretch this season, when his team needed him, but he still needs to do it in the playoffs.
Uh oh. That is twice in a row that we have agreed. Does that mean it's no longer rare?

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04-29-2006, 03:40 PM
  #6
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All these guys will get in.

Sundin is a lock. The guy will be the all-time leading scorer of an original-6 team by next season. ~500 goals and 1200 points playing predominantly in the dead-puck era and still going strong. Huge performance on an Olympic goal medalist. Two 2nd-team All-star nods. Multiple years top-10 in scoring, including 01-02 where he finished 2nd in goals and 4th in points.

Ditto for Modano. Same sort of career numbers - 500 goals, 1200 points and counting. #1 center on a Cup winner, led the league in playoff assists twice, huge in the 1996 US World Cup win.

How are the careers of these two guys lesser than those of guys like Gilbert Perreault, Darryl Sittler, Dale Hawerchuk, etc? All #1 centers with similar resumes, similar career totals, similar all-star nods, similar placement in league scoring year-by-year. But those guys are no-brain HHOFers, but Sundin and Modano are in doubt? Nostalgia is sure nice. Sundin and Modano will both cakewalk to the HHOF.

Niewendyk is the shakiest of the four, but he'll get in too based on his 500 goals and exceptional clutch resume.

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04-29-2006, 03:57 PM
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MS
All these guys will get in.

Sundin is a lock. The guy will be the all-time leading scorer of an original-6 team by next season. ~500 goals and 1200 points playing predominantly in the dead-puck era and still going strong. Huge performance on an Olympic goal medalist. Two 2nd-team All-star nods. Multiple years top-10 in scoring, including 01-02 where he finished 2nd in goals and 4th in points.

Ditto for Modano. Same sort of career numbers - 500 goals, 1200 points and counting. #1 center on a Cup winner, led the league in playoff assists twice, huge in the 1996 US World Cup win.

How are the careers of these two guys lesser than those of guys like Gilbert Perreault, Darryl Sittler, Dale Hawerchuk, etc? All #1 centers with similar resumes, similar career totals, similar all-star nods, similar placement in league scoring year-by-year. But those guys are no-brain HHOFers, but Sundin and Modano are in doubt? Nostalgia is sure nice. Sundin and Modano will both cakewalk to the HHOF.

Niewendyk is the shakiest of the four, but he'll get in too based on his 500 goals and exceptional clutch resume.
Let me rephrase my post.

Gilmour and Nieuwendyk deserve to get in. Modano and Sundin do not.

But, they will all likely get in because Hall standards are pretty low.

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04-29-2006, 04:24 PM
  #8
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Originally Posted by Ogopogo
Let me rephrase my post.

Gilmour and Nieuwendyk deserve to get in. Modano and Sundin do not.

But, they will all likely get in because Hall standards are pretty low.
So then you think that guys like Perreault and Sittler shouldn't be in either? Perreault's career, in particular, is almost a carbon copy of Sundin's.

This 'deserve' stuff is rubbish. Standards are what they are, and have always and will always be the same. Arguing against them is pointless. If a player meets the established standards, they deserve to be there. The only thing that really matters is how a player's career stacks up to the HHOF standards, whether you agree with them or not.

Modano and Sundin are dead solid automatic choices in any era, even if the criteria were tougher. Huge career numbers, post-season All-star nods, multiple times top-10 in scoring, both the face of their franchise for over a decade and their team's all-time leading scorer.

I'm a little surprised people think that Niewendyk is so automatic. To me, he's clearly the weakest of the four. Very good first four seasons (although he still wasn't top-10 in scoring in any of them). Since then, he's spent the majority of his career as a quality #2 center, averaging about 60-65 points/season. One huge playoff run with Dallas and three cups, but his playoff PPG is still well below his regular season PPG.

And how on earth is Niewendyk more deserving than Modano? Modano will have better career numbers, their top seasons were relatively equal, Modano was an elite player for longer, Modano has a post-season All-star nod while Niewendyk does not, and Modano outscored Niewendyk 46-31 on Dallas' trips to the finals.

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04-29-2006, 04:30 PM
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MS
So then you think that guys like Perreault and Sittler shouldn't be in either? Perreault's career, in particular, is almost a carbon copy of Sundin's.

This 'deserve' stuff is rubbish. Standards are what they are, and have always and will always be the same. Arguing against them is pointless. If a player meets the established standards, they deserve to be there. The only thing that really matters is how a player's career stacks up to the HHOF standards, whether you agree with them or not.

Modano and Sundin are dead solid automatic choices in any era, even if the criteria were tougher. Huge career numbers, post-season All-star nods, multiple times top-10 in scoring, both the face of their franchise for over a decade and their team's all-time leading scorer.

I'm a little surprised people think that Niewendyk is so automatic. To me, he's clearly the weakest of the four. Very good first four seasons (although he still wasn't top-10 in scoring in any of them). Since then, he's spent the majority of his career as a quality #2 center, averaging about 60-65 points/season. One huge playoff run with Dallas and three cups, but his playoff PPG is still well below his regular season PPG.

And how on earth is Niewendyk more deserving than Modano? Modano will have better career numbers, their top seasons were relatively equal, Modano was an elite player for longer, Modano has a post-season All-star nod while Niewendyk does not, and Modano outscored Niewendyk 46-31 on Dallas' trips to the finals.
I took a closer look at Nieuwendyk and he is in my gray area. I would say no to him too, in my personal HOF.

Gilmour is the only one of the four that makes my HOF. Modano and Sundin have been good players for a long time. IMO, the HOF should be about GREAT players and Modano and Sundin have never been great.

How exactly does being good for a long time = a GREAT career. It doesn't.

Put together several GREAT seasons and that makes a great career.

Sittler's career was below Nieuwendy's so, he is not in my personal HOF. Perreault is in the gray area very close to Nieuwendyk.

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04-29-2006, 07:00 PM
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Gilmour is not on the bubble. He is a sure Hall of Famer.

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04-29-2006, 07:26 PM
  #11
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I really don't buy all the talk about "dead puck era" or "weighted for era stats." I respect the effort that people put into weighted for era stats, but I don't find them all that relevant for the post-expansion era. (That would be the first expansion in 1967). A lot of stars from the 1980s put up pretty good stats (some had career numbers and many had similar numbers) after the scoring started to plummet in 1993-94. "Dead puck era?" Not even close. That would be the late 1920s and most of the 1930s.

Dale Hawerchuk was a much better player than Sundin or Modano, or Nieuwendyk for that matter. Hawerchuk was a marvellous offensive talent who had several seasons in the top 5 to 7 scorers in an offensive era. Had several years in which he finished among the top Hart Trophy voters, too. He often did it with very inferior linemates. He turned Paul MacLean into a 100-point scorer.

How good was Hawerchuk? Playing as an 18-year-old in 1981-82 (turned 19 with a couple days left in the season), the Jets went from 32 points the year before and the worst team in the league, to a .500 team and second in the Norris. Hawerchuk was the only key addition, although several other players did mature.

And for those who think his numbers are a reflection of his era: in 1993-94, a season with under 6.5 goals per game, playing with a deteriorating hip, he still managed over a point-per-game. (That was also with an injured LaFontaine and a gun-shy Alexander Mogilny).

As for comparisons to Perreault and Sittler. I've always thought both were a little overrated. I don't rate Perreault as one of the top 50 players ever, but a lot of people do. But he did have two 100-point seasons, and finished over a point-per-game in the playoffs for his career. (Sundin can't). Injuries did cost him two or three more 100-point seasons. He did have better talent around him than Hawerchuk, with Martin, Robert and Gare, and then Andreychuk and Housley later in his career. I'd rate Perrault as better than Sundin, Modano and Nieuwendyk.

Sittler's a player who generates a lot of strong debate. He's another guy I think is overrated (finished in the THN top 100, a little high from my perspective). But in an eight-year stretch, he finished with 751 points and scored at a 98-point clip. Not many players not in the HHOF who produced at a better clip than that. Had some strong playoffs, especially with Toronto. I think he belongs in the HHOF, just shouldn't be that high on some lists.

MS, we've had debates before about career statistics and you've earned my utmost respect, but 500 goals and 1,200 points are no longer a guarantee for HHOF induction. Ciccarelli is at 600-plus and played a chippy, abrasive style, and has been passed over four times. Andreychuk has roughly 640 goals, and is far from a consensus HHOFer.

Pierre Turgeon could finish his career with 550 goals and 1,400 points (he'd likely reach both if he played two more years) and he likely won't make it. (I can't forsee any situation in which I would support Turgeon for the HHOF). Modano's been a fine, consistent, all-round player for many years (2003-04 excluded), but so were Damphousse and Larmer. Sundin is missing that big-time playoff. The HHOF voters have generally not considered international play for those who spent the majority of their careers (or their prime years) in the NHL. They've been very, very NHL centric in the last few decades.

Marc Recchi's another player who put up stirling numbers over the course of his career, will finish with over 1,300 points, played a good all-round game, put up big-time numbers on a Cup champion, but won't get enshrined without a flourish at the end of his career.

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04-29-2006, 08:42 PM
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From those guys its hard to say who'll get in and who not. All have been good players, but not all-time greats. As none of them has Art Ross or Hart Trophies to show, from this bunch I would take Nieuwendyk and Gilmour, and leave the two (Sundin and Modano) out.

Let me justificate:

- Nieuwendyk has three major NHL personal trophies (Calder, Conn Smythe and King Clancy), whilst Sundin and Modano have none.
- Nieuwendyk has three Cups, whereas Modano has one and Sundin none.
- Gilmour has a Cup, one Selke and 1414 career points- which is most of the four

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04-29-2006, 10:19 PM
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Originally Posted by flyin_finn
From those guys its hard to say who'll get in and who not. All have been good players, but not all-time greats. As none of them has Art Ross or Hart Trophies to show, from this bunch I would take Nieuwendyk and Gilmour, and leave the two (Sundin and Modano) out.

Let me justificate:

- Nieuwendyk has three major NHL personal trophies (Calder, Conn Smythe and King Clancy), whilst Sundin and Modano have none.
- Nieuwendyk has three Cups, whereas Modano has one and Sundin none.
- Gilmour has a Cup, one Selke and 1414 career points- which is most of the four
And for 2 years in Toronto Gilmour was one of the very best players in the world. Top 3 or at worst a top 5 player over 2 seasons or more. That means alot. None of the others were ever that dominant.

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04-29-2006, 10:23 PM
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And for 2 years in Toronto Gilmour was one of the very best players in the world. Top 3 or at worst a top 5 player over 2 seasons or more. That means alot. None of the others were ever that dominant.
As I said before, Gilmour is a lock. When you look at his production, his all-round contributions, his leadership and his playoff performances, and his Stanley Cup ring, he has everything that the HHOF voters look for. He'll get in this year, and I'd be surprised if there are more than one or two dissidents.

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04-29-2006, 11:38 PM
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My opinion on these guys would be that they all will get in except Nieuwendyk. I just don't think he'll make it. Just my opinion. Gilmour is in. Modano and Sundin will be also. Gilmour is the best "lock" of the four.

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04-30-2006, 01:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Ogopogo
Uh oh. That is twice in a row that we have agreed. Does that mean it's no longer rare?
Quick, somebody create a thread about defining the greatness of players, or the value of defensive forwards. If Ogopogo and I are agreing on consecutive issues, then the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse should be making their appearance any day now.

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05-01-2006, 06:05 PM
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Mats Sundin and Mike Modano should definitely make the Hall of Fame. I don't really understand the concept of deserving or not anyway. Some fans like the idea of an ultra exclusive Hall of Fame like the one they have for baseball. That's just not what hockey's hall is like. People have made the argument that Sundin shouldn't get in because he hasn't won a cup. Fine. Mike Modano has had almost the exact same type of career Sundin has had with the addition of a Stanley Cup in 1999. He should get in.

But winning a cup isn't the benchmark for the Hall of Fame anyway. Sundin has been the face of the Leafs for over a decade and when all is said and done, he could be their all time career leading scorer. He has led his team in scoring on eleven separate occasions. That's quite an accomplishment. I don't see how he's so different from Gilbert Perreault for the Sabres, Darryl Sittler was for Toronto as far as franchise players are concerned. I don't see how he's too different from a guy like Jean Ratelle, who is a definite Hall of Famer without a Cup.

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05-01-2006, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Stephen
Mats Sundin and Mike Modano should definitely make the Hall of Fame. I don't really understand the concept of deserving or not anyway. Some fans like the idea of an ultra exclusive Hall of Fame like the one they have for baseball. That's just not what hockey's hall is like. People have made the argument that Sundin shouldn't get in because he hasn't won a cup. Fine. Mike Modano has had almost the exact same type of career Sundin has had with the addition of a Stanley Cup in 1999. He should get in.

But winning a cup isn't the benchmark for the Hall of Fame anyway. Sundin has been the face of the Leafs for over a decade and when all is said and done, he could be their all time career leading scorer. He has led his team in scoring on eleven separate occasions. That's quite an accomplishment. I don't see how he's so different from Gilbert Perreault for the Sabres, Darryl Sittler was for Toronto as far as franchise players are concerned. I don't see how he's too different from a guy like Jean Ratelle, who is a definite Hall of Famer without a Cup.

Winning a Cup is not a pre-requisite for admission into the HHOF. Many players have gotten into the Hall without one, and now in a 30-team league, many more will get into the HHOF without one. Being part of a Cup champion helps to cement your legacy, though, or push a borderline candidate over the top, especially if he's the best player, captain, best forward/defenceman/goaltender, or a key player. And that's only right. No better compliment to pay a player than "he was the best player on the best team on the planet."

But there's no excuse for not elevating your play in the post-season. And Sundin hasn't done that. That's the biggest strike on his resume. A player of his calibre should have at least one, preferrably several, marquee playoffs, when people in hockey circles rave about how he elevated his play when it mattered most, and carried his team on his back. And it's a gaping hole on his resume.

A difference between Mats Sundin and Jean Ratelle? Jean Ratelle was once deemed to be the best player in the league by his peers. And that's ahead of Bobby Orr, Phil Esposito and many others.

Being the face of a franchise for a decade doesn't make one iota of a difference, unless that franchise enjoys success during his tenure, and by success, I'm talking the success accompanied by Stanley Cup rings. Yes, the Leafs have a long and storied history, but since Sundin's arrival, they have won three conference final games. I don't think being "the face of the franchise" will help him with the success they've enjoyed.

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05-01-2006, 07:44 PM
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Modano's stats are particularly impressive given he played in the dead puck era, for Ken hitchcock and on Dallas slush. At that exchange rate I'm sure you can overlook not breaking 100.

Of course he does starve poodles.

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05-01-2006, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by God Bless Canada
A difference between Mats Sundin and Jean Ratelle? Jean Ratelle was once deemed to be the best player in the league by his peers. And that's ahead of Bobby Orr, Phil Esposito and many others.

Being the face of a franchise for a decade doesn't make one iota of a difference, unless that franchise enjoys success during his tenure, and by success, I'm talking the success accompanied by Stanley Cup rings. Yes, the Leafs have a long and storied history, but since Sundin's arrival, they have won three conference final games. I don't think being "the face of the franchise" will help him with the success they've enjoyed.
Of course Sundin's contributions to his franchise matters. It's the Hall of FAME, not the Hall of "The best hockey player according to some of his peers" or the Hall of "players who won championships." There are plenty of players who have done less than Sundin in the NHL as individual players. There are plenty of hockey players who have had limited success on NHL teams who are in the Hall. But they are in the Hall because they mean things to people, to fans and to the game. Nobody's disputing Perreault or Sittler's place in the Hall. What did those guys have on Sundin? What about Pat Lafontaine's place is not disputed, but if you look at his body of accomplishments, he didn't do too much on paper. Sundin has also captained Sweden to an Olympic Gold medal and is an accomplished international player, not to mention that he has been a great hockey player in the NHL.

Modano should make it for the same reasons. He's won a cup, he has the stats, he was part of an Olympic silver and a World Cup win. He has been the face of the Stars for almost 2 decades. How are his accomplishments any less than Sittler's or Perreault, or Lafontaine's or Cam Neely's or Clark Gilles?

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05-01-2006, 08:58 PM
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Of course Sundin's contributions to his franchise matters. It's the Hall of FAME, not the Hall of "The best hockey player according to some of his peers" or the Hall of "players who won championships." There are plenty of players who have done less than Sundin in the NHL as individual players. There are plenty of hockey players who have had limited success on NHL teams who are in the Hall. But they are in the Hall because they mean things to people, to fans and to the game. Nobody's disputing Perreault or Sittler's place in the Hall. What did those guys have on Sundin? What about Pat Lafontaine's place is not disputed, but if you look at his body of accomplishments, he didn't do too much on paper. Sundin has also captained Sweden to an Olympic Gold medal and is an accomplished international player, not to mention that he has been a great hockey player in the NHL.

Modano should make it for the same reasons. He's won a cup, he has the stats, he was part of an Olympic silver and a World Cup win. He has been the face of the Stars for almost 2 decades. How are his accomplishments any less than Sittler's or Perreault, or Lafontaine's or Cam Neely's or Clark Gilles?
The HHOF voters have been very NHL-centric over the last few decades. They only take international play into considerataion for those who spent the majority of their career, or the prime years of their career, overseas. In the case of Sergei Makarov, likely the best eligible player not in the HHOF, his international accomplishments haven't gotten him in.

Pat LaFontaine was almost peerless in his prime. When he was healthy, he was one of the top five players in the league from 1988 to 1996. He single-handedly got the Islanders into the playoffs in 1990.

Cam Neely is the best combination of goals and physical play, outside of Messier, in the last 30 years. Not only is he a four-time second-team all-star, but he carried his team on his back three times in the playoffs (1988, 1990 and 1991), getting the Bruins to the final twice. Boston's hopes at a Cup in 1991 died the moment Neely went down. Neely is, IMO, one of the top 100 players who ever played the game.

Sittler, as stated before, scored at a 98-point clip over an eight-year stretch. It's not quite the decade of dominance, but it's close. Perreault scored at a point-per-game clip in the playoffs, and was a dominant offensive centre, even though it's been said many times that we never saw the best of Gilbert Perreault.

I'll give you Clarke Gillies, and Bernie Federko for that matter. Both don't belong. But by the time Sundin and Modano come up for induction, at least 14 of the 18 voters responsible for Gillies' and Federko's induction will be gone.

You asked earlier for the difference between Ratelle and Sundin. I gave you the difference. Ratelle was, at one point, the best player in the league, according to his peers. Sundin has never had that distinction. Ratelle also cemented his place by scoring at over a point-per-game clip in the playoffs in three of the last four years of his career. Sundin's been over a point per game in the post-season twice in his career.

As stated before, Sundin has never elevated his play in the post-season. None of the Sundin backers have ever countered or refuted that argument. I won't hold it against him that he's never won a Cup, I can think of lots of deserving HHOF players who never won a Cup, but Sundin's failure to elevate his play in the post-season cannot be ignored.

I don't think Mike Modano's career is any better than Vincent Damphousse. In fact, they're pretty similar. Modano may have been more talented, but in terms of what they actually accomplished, they're pretty equal. And as much as I like Damphousse, he doesn't belong in the Hall.

This is the Hall of Fame, reserved for the best players who played the game. Yes, the induction committee (which changes by more than 10 per cent on a year-to-year basis) has been a little permissive at times, especially in the early stages, and again with the veteran's committee, but over the last few years, they've become pretty tough. (Clake Gillies excluded). Sergei Makarov, Glenn Anderson, Mark Howe and Dino Cicarelli can attest to that.

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05-01-2006, 10:31 PM
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Joe Nieuwendyk won the Calder, the Conn Smythe and captained a couple of teams, helped three different teams get the Cup. Has over 500 goals and 1000 points.

There isn't a chance in hell he doesn't get in. Joe is a lock!

The others are borderline.

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05-03-2006, 11:49 AM
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I weep for this generation.

Put the numbers down, kids. They all deserve to get in. They all will.

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05-03-2006, 07:58 PM
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Originally Posted by moneyp
I weep for this generation.

Put the numbers down, kids. They all deserve to get in. They all will.


Finally a sensible post with no bias in this thread

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05-03-2006, 09:09 PM
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If international play is taken into account then save a couple spots for Ryan Smyth and Adam Foote.

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