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Is Elias the best LW of the last 30 years?

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Old
05-10-2006, 03:49 PM
  #101
reckoning
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Badger Bob
Once those players were all gone, Gainey had to assume a different role. Hence, he was captain in '86 on a Cup winner and in '89 on a Cup runner-up. Neither team was exactly loaded with talent. Certainly, there was a benefit from his leadership.
Yes, Gainey`s leadership was impressive after Bowman left. There was the quarter-final loss to Minnesota in `80, the 1st round sweep loss to Edmonton in `81, the first round loss to Quebec in `82, the first round loss sweep loss to Buffalo in `83, the choke against the Islanders in `84. Montreal did win the Cup in `86, but only after the top five teams in the league were eliminated in other series. It took 7 games to beat Mike Liut and Hartford. Yipppee.

Quote:
Seeing as though Jim Kelley used to be the president of the Professional Hockey Writers Association, somebody must've paid attention. Why is this relevent? Well, again Ramsay was always the source for stories.
Ramsay`s reputation as a top-notch defensive forward was already solidified before Jim Kelley ever started covering hockey.

On the other hand, Red Fisher was a huge Gainey supporter from the start, and Fisher had a lot of influence among the other NHL media back then.

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05-10-2006, 04:08 PM
  #102
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absolutly NOT

I don't know much about LWs that played from 76-90, i wasnt a thinking human then, but I do know from 1990 on that Luc should be considered the best of the last 15 years.

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05-10-2006, 04:22 PM
  #103
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Girls, girls, you're both pretty damned good defensive forwards.

I respect Reck enough not to bash Ramsey. I'm sure he watched more Buffalo games than I did back then. But I always thought Gainey was something special. Yes, the circumstances he played in brought out the best in his game, but hey, those are the breaks. Good players get ice time with good teams, and there were many games where Gainey had as much or more ice time as any forward on the team. He wasn't didn't ride the coattails of a great team, he *stood out* on what was one of the best teams of all time (the best, IMO) despite the fact that he didn't score many points. He was one of the guys you kept an eye on when he took the ice.

Yes, Red Fisher praised the hell out of him. Red had damned good reason to. So did Scotty Bowman and Ken Dryden and Larry Robinson and Viktor Tikhonov and Darryl Sittler and Denis Potvin. Ask any of his contemporaries whether or not he deserved to make the Hall of Fame. I have. The answer I usually get is "are you f**king kidding me? Of course!" (maybe not in so many words).

You don't need to score points to be an impact player. There are a legion of 100-point guys out there that I would have no problem picking Gainey over, any day of the week.

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05-10-2006, 04:37 PM
  #104
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No, I respect Gainey. I was just trying to imitate someone`s posting style to illustrate how pointless it is. This whole routine of dismissing everybody else, like Jarvis ("Gainey did it all alone") or how the `89 Habs weren`t loaded with talent (aside from Calgary, name one team that was more talented that season?). The only thing missing was a Sirhan Sirhan rant.

Btw, in the very first post of the thread, I gave Gainey the benefit of the doubt and rated him ahead of Ramsay, so what`s the problem?

I never stated that Gainey didn`t deserve to be in the Hall, all I said was that on a weaker team he likely wouldn`t have made the Hall, which I believe is true. That`s more due to defensive forwards in general being underrated more than anything else.

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05-10-2006, 08:25 PM
  #105
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Robitaille was without a doubt better than Elias is or will be in my opinion.

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05-10-2006, 08:41 PM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kovy1335
Robitaille was without a doubt better than Elias is or will be in my opinion.
You're in Pittsburgh. So of course you don't know about the defensive half of hockey.

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05-10-2006, 08:43 PM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reckoning
No, I respect Gainey. I was just trying to imitate someone`s posting style to illustrate how pointless it is. This whole routine of dismissing everybody else, like Jarvis ("Gainey did it all alone") or how the `89 Habs weren`t loaded with talent (aside from Calgary, name one team that was more talented that season?). The only thing missing was a Sirhan Sirhan rant.

Btw, in the very first post of the thread, I gave Gainey the benefit of the doubt and rated him ahead of Ramsay, so what`s the problem?

I never stated that Gainey didn`t deserve to be in the Hall, all I said was that on a weaker team he likely wouldn`t have made the Hall, which I believe is true. That`s more due to defensive forwards in general being underrated more than anything else.
leave Sirhan Sirhan out of it; he was no better a shot than Gainey

Anyhow I have definitive proof:

Greatest Goalscorers:

Shutt 57
Elias 167

Thats from the hockey guru himself. Cant argue with that!


Last edited by chooch*: 05-10-2006 at 08:49 PM.
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05-10-2006, 09:04 PM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander
You're in Pittsburgh. So of course you don't know about the defensive half of hockey.
Haha perhaps you're right, but I'm entitled to my opinion even though Lucky Luc wasn't as great as he could have been while he was here.

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05-11-2006, 06:21 AM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Badger Bob
Leclair was far from ordinary in '96 World Cup. That was his real coming out party. Lindros was, of course, part of the opposition.
He had a great series. Point is, without Lindros, his career is a series of short spurts where he played well bracketted by long stretches where he is very ordinary. Even in that World Cup, he was no better than USA's 4th best player. Richter wins hands down, Hull not only beat him in points but came up with the clutch goals and Chelios was amazing. A case could be made for Amonte and Hatcher outplaying him as well.

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05-11-2006, 07:13 AM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reckoning
... the choke against the Islanders in `84...
Holy spin batman.

This is more like it. The Habs, a 75 pt team, eliminated Boston who finished 30pts ahead of them in the standings, eliminated a very talented Quebec team and took the 4 time defending champs to 6 games despite their leader playing with two separated shoulders.


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05-11-2006, 07:53 AM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turnbuckle
Elias is better than soem because he has more Cups? Please!! I guess Wayne Merrick, Pierre Mondou, Mike Krushelnyski, etc. were better than Marcel Dionne because they won more Cups.

Stevens, Neidermayer and Brodeur had nothing to do with the Devils' Cups, Elias was the sole reason they won I suppose.

Yet another post with a total disregard for the past, and as far as Propp being second....even more of a joke - he's not even the second best Flyer left winger in the past 30 years. Played during the high scoring 80's which resulted in players like Ciccarelli and Gartner being on all-time goal-scoring lists even though there have been a pile of players much better than them through hockey's history.

Goulet
Shutt
Gainey
Hull
Naslund
Shanahan
Kharlamov
Krutov
Barber
Leclair

He may soon be in a group with Propp, Gillies, Ramsay, Kariya, Andreychuk, Ramsay, Tonelli, and Robitaille after the top ten, but IMO he needs a couple more solid seasons before he's in that group.
Please explain how these 2 are in the top ten ahead of Luc? First 8 seasons in the league 40 or more goal per yer. PPG player his first 8 yrs. All time leading LW scorer, most points in a season ever by a LW but yet not a top ten all time LW?

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05-11-2006, 08:51 AM
  #112
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Asked myself the same question. As an all-time lw, i would rate andreychuk over naslund too.

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05-11-2006, 09:16 AM
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reckoning
Btw, in the very first post of the thread, I gave Gainey the benefit of the doubt and rated him ahead of Ramsay, so what`s the problem?
The problem was in the very first post. Even before that, the title is highly debatable. You basically wrote a list of who the supposed top LW were through the last three decades without establishing any criteria or how to factor in comparisons with different periods of hockey history. It was "these are the guys I think were best...you MUST agree with me, or I'm gonna get really mad."

Keith Tkachuk is dismissed outright as "overrated." For a period, he was one of the game's premier power forwards. Any guy who can pot 50 with 200 PIM has a decent blend of scoring touch and an intimidation factor. He was a member of Team USA multiple times when the program had developed to a very respectable level on the international scene. (Yeah, yeah, yeah he was probably part of the Nagano room trashing.)

Then, Craig Ramsay is touted as one of the greatest, while there might not have been one Sabres fan in the late 70's who would've regarded him as even the best LW on the team. Richard Martin kept goalies back in their creases. His career was cut tragically short. (Charlie Simmer was also pretty damned good from that era.)Later, Dave Andreychuk would go onto to being the most prolific PP goal scorer ever. He essentially got run out of Buffalo, since too many Sabres fans resented that he didn't play like Cam Neely.

Then it brings us back to Bob Gainey. Are you sure you really respect him that much? Sure, he's on the list, for whatever that matters. You spent several posts claiming that his success in the 70's was more due to his teammates. In the early 80's it was proven to you that there wasn't stellar goaltending in Montreal, and every playoff defeat could've, somehow been blamed on the captain. The '86 Cup win and the '89 runner-up were apparently more due to Larry Robinson's leadership (then why didn't they just give him the 'C' instead?). Incidentally, a strong argument could be made that the '89 Oilers had at least as strong a team as the Canadiens. Considering there was another Cup in their future, even without Gretzky, affirms this point.

Somebody else could recall the competition from the East. If the Canadiens were head and shoulders above everybody else, I'll defer to who's got a better memory.


Last edited by Badger Bob: 05-11-2006 at 09:22 AM.
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Old
05-11-2006, 05:36 PM
  #114
reckoning
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Badger Bob
You basically wrote a list of who the supposed top LW were through the last three decades without establishing any criteria or how to factor in comparisons with different periods of hockey history. It was "these are the guys I think were best...you MUST agree with me, or I'm gonna get really mad."
I never acted that way, I just gave my opinion. Stop making up crap.

Quote:
Keith Tkachuk is dismissed outright as "overrated." For a period, he was one of the game's premier power forwards. Any guy who can pot 50 with 200 PIM has a decent blend of scoring touch and an intimidation factor.
How did Tkachuk do in the playoffs? You`re quoting regular season stats when earlier you said they amounted to squat.

Quote:
The '86 Cup win and the '89 runner-up were apparently more due to Larry Robinson's leadership (then why didn't they just give him the 'C' instead?). Incidentally, a strong argument could be made that the '89 Oilers had at least as strong a team as the Canadiens. Considering there was another Cup in their future, even without Gretzky, affirms this point.
Please point out when I said it was more due to Robinson`s leadership. While you`re at it, name one defenceman on that Oiler team that was as good as Chelios.

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05-11-2006, 09:22 PM
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Badger Bob
The problem was in the very first post. Even before that, the title is highly debatable. You basically wrote a list of who the supposed top LW were through the last three decades without establishing any criteria or how to factor in comparisons with different periods of hockey history. It was "these are the guys I think were best...you MUST agree with me, or I'm gonna get really mad."
No, he didn't. He offered opinions.

Then your post goes on to have the kind of discussion the original post is, in part, designed to generate. However, your tone indicates you feel anyone who disagrees with you obviously doesn't know what they're talking about - ironic given your complaint.

I lurked this forum (CBJ board regular) before posting. This history stuff is great. But ultimately it all boils down to opinion. Everyone uses their own criteria - numbers, awards, Cups, whatever. But I think it all comes down to a gut feeling. So be it.

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05-11-2006, 09:50 PM
  #116
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Wouldn't the best LW of the last 30 years need to have hit the 100-point mark, oh say once before being anointed as such?

Just saying.

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05-11-2006, 09:59 PM
  #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87
Wouldn't the best LW of the last 30 years need to have hit the 100-point mark, oh say once before being anointed as such?

Just saying.
He played in the lowest scoring part of the last 30 years and was 3rd and 6th overall in different seasons in points.

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05-11-2006, 10:14 PM
  #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kingpest19
Please explain how these 2 are in the top ten ahead of Luc? First 8 seasons in the league 40 or more goal per yer. PPG player his first 8 yrs. All time leading LW scorer, most points in a season ever by a LW but yet not a top ten all time LW?
Between 2001-02 and 2003-04 Naslund was not only the best left winger in hockey, he was probably the best player in hockey. Those three seasons are among the best three consecutive seasons put together by a left winger in NHL history save for Bobby Hull and Cy Denneny.


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05-11-2006, 10:23 PM
  #119
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Luc topped 100 four times, and couldn't match Elias' 3rd place finish in '01, peaking at 5th in '88 and '92. Luc's 125 points in '93 were only good for 9th. They both have a best of 4th in goals as well, although Luc has done it twice.

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05-11-2006, 10:38 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by Ogopogo
Between 2001-02 and 2003-04 Naslund was not only the best left winger in hockey, he was probably the best player in hockey. Those three seasons are among the best three consecutive seasons put together by a left winger in NHL history save for Bobby Hull.
So 3 seasons puts him ahead of Luc? His first 7 yrs in the league either led or was top 3 on his team. Dont get me wrong Naslund is a great hockey player. I just dont see it still. Sets the all time record for points in a season by a left winger. Goals in a season by a left winger, all time scoring leader for left wing. But yet he still not top ten on some peoples list. Hell just the all time record speaks for consistency alone. In my opinion someone who is consistent year after year after year to become an all time leader is higher up on a list than someone who was great for 3 season.

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05-11-2006, 10:43 PM
  #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BM67
Luc topped 100 four times, and couldn't match Elias' 3rd place finish in '01, peaking at 5th in '88 and '92. Luc's 125 points in '93 were only good for 9th. They both have a best of 4th in goals as well, although Luc has done it twice.
Did Elias have at their prime peak lemieux, gretzky, yzerman to stack up against? I guess growing up and watching Luc come into the league and become one of the best all time lw's in hockey skews my view a bit. Elias is a great hockey player. I just dont see how year after year consistency gets put on the bottom of the list.

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05-11-2006, 10:46 PM
  #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kingpest19
So 3 seasons puts him ahead of Luc? His first 7 yrs in the league either led or was top 3 on his team. Dont get me wrong Naslund is a great hockey player. I just dont see it still. Sets the all time record for points in a season by a left winger. Goals in a season by a left winger, all time scoring leader for left wing. But yet he still not top ten on some peoples list. Hell just the all time record speaks for consistency alone. In my opinion someone who is consistent year after year after year to become an all time leader is higher up on a list than someone who was great for 3 season.
The way I see it, being the best player on the planet, or close to it, for 3 years is better than being the 20th best player for a decade. Would you rather win one gold medal in the Olympics or finish 6th in 1992 and 6th again in 1996 and 6th for a third time in 2000? The greater athlete won the gold, IMO.

Luc has some inflated numbers from playing during the 80s and I don't put much stock in career numbers. Playing a long time as a good, but not great, player does not make you great, IMO. Luc was an excellent player and I have him rated as the 236th most dominant NHLer of all time. But, he never consistently dominated the goal scoring or point scoring lists and he was never seriously considered for a Hart Trophy. Good player but not as great as many people have been led to believe by his inflated numbers.

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05-11-2006, 10:52 PM
  #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kingpest19
Did Elias have at their prime peak lemieux, gretzky, yzerman to stack up against? I guess growing up and watching Luc come into the league and become one of the best all time lw's in hockey skews my view a bit. Elias is a great hockey player. I just dont see how year after year consistency gets put on the bottom of the list.
Luc was never even consistenly 4th after those guys. He never once finished in the top 7 in Hart balloting and he was usually around 15th or 20th best player in the NHL. Year after year consistency is good not great. Great means you stand above your peers and dominate. Luc never did much of that.

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05-11-2006, 11:00 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by Ogopogo
The way I see it, being the best player on the planet, or close to it, for 3 years is better than being the 20th best player for a decade. Would you rather win one gold medal in the Olympics or finish 6th in 1992 and 6th again in 1996 and 6th for a third time in 2000? The greater athlete won the gold, IMO.

Luc has some inflated numbers from playing during the 80s and I don't put much stock in career numbers. Playing a long time as a good, but not great, player does not make you great, IMO. Luc was an excellent player and I have him rated as the 236th most dominant NHLer of all time. But, he never consistently dominated the goal scoring or point scoring lists and he was never seriously considered for a Hart Trophy. Good player but not as great as many people have been led to believe by his inflated numbers.
So are everyones else numbers inflated from playing in the 80's also? Once again kind of hard to dominate when youve got 3 of all the all time greatest players in the NHL , in their prime. Im not saying that hes an all time great of the game but when it comes to LW he should be considered top 10. And for a stretch of time he was better than good but not great. Considering where the guy was drafted at noone expected him to even come close to whats hes accomplished. Going from 9th round draft pick to all time lw leader in everything speaks for itself regardless of what decade he played in.

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05-11-2006, 11:05 PM
  #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo
Luc was never even consistenly 4th after those guys. He never once finished in the top 7 in Hart balloting and he was usually around 15th or 20th best player in the NHL. Year after year consistency is good not great. Great means you stand above your peers and dominate. Luc never did much of that.
When has Elias ever been consistently 4th in the NHL? Elias has had 1 year near the top, when was he top 7 in Hart balloting? Elias has been up and down his whole career.

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