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Old
05-10-2006, 06:58 PM
  #51
triggrman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by handtrick
He said during the year that if he wasn't in a manpower crunch he would have benched Hartnell....hard to tell if this was blowing smoke or not.

Do the CBA rules preclude you from giving perks as incentive such as:
-free in room movies on road trips
-free room servce
-extra meal money

He did the "gold helmet" thing for shoot out king, which I thought was creative and the players appeared to love it.

What about a "pink" jersey for the lazy penalty king.......sitting at the back of the bus and plane for that guy.......what about making him wear a pink jock, etc.
-I know it is a fine line between making the players hate the coach versus making them be accountable to each other, but it is Trotz's job to find that happy medium to get the desired result....not "leaving it up to the guys in the room......"
I have to agree with Nomore, why not bench him one of the 20 games Upshall had to sit.

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Old
05-10-2006, 07:13 PM
  #52
handtrick
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Not to give Trotz big kudos here, but he did bench Hartnell one of the last games when he had an abundance of healthy bodies at the end of the season to keep him from having a "perfect" 82 game year.
Even that minor chastisement had Hartnell whining in the press.....

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05-10-2006, 07:18 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by handtrick
Not to give Trotz big kudos here, but he did bench Hartnell one of the last games when he had an abundance of healthy bodies at the end of the season to keep him from having a "perfect" 82 game year.
Even that minor chastisement had Hartnell whining in the press.....

But I think he had a legitimate gripe. Did he take dumb penalties? Yes.

But with that in mind...there should have been some other benchings along the way, as well. How Walker racked up that many minors in under 40 games is beyond all comprehension...and it's worth noting that Timonen had only 6 less penalties than Hartnell...in 2 fewer games.

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Old
05-10-2006, 07:25 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nomorekids
But I think he had a legitimate gripe. Did he take dumb penalties? Yes.

But with that in mind...there should have been some other benchings along the way, as well. How Walker racked up that many minors in under 40 games is beyond all comprehension...and it's worth noting that Timonen had only 6 less penalties than Hartnell...in 2 fewer games.

that was Trotz's gripe...he couldn't bench Hartnell when he deserved it, because of lack of warm bodies.

Re: Timonen vs Hartnell..... I would expect a defenseman to have a higher minors/game ratio than a forward on average.
Granted Hartnell's game is unique, but I would rather compare him to Upshall, Walker, and Hall...where he still ranks closer to Walker than Upshall/Hall.

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05-10-2006, 07:35 PM
  #55
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Hartnell also plays a much more physical game than either Hall(quickly looking like one of the softest big men in the league) or Upshall(gritty, but not overly "physical"), and I wonder how much Hartnell started to get a few "reputation" calls toward the end. I only say that because, while Hartnell took some dumb penalties throughout the season, I think he was also the recepient of some HORRIBLE calls, moreso than any other member of the team.

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05-11-2006, 09:39 AM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by handtrick
When you stratify our players based not just on minor penalties, but on minor penatlies per game played, it is interesting how it shakes out:

-a better ranking would be minors per 15 minute TOI, but I didn't have the data for that.....

Original Rank in Minors...Name..GP..PIMs...Minors...Minor/GP Ratio....New Rank by Ratio

1 BRENDAN WITT NSH D ......75 209 67 .890.....1
21 SHEA WEBER NSH D ........28 42 16 .571.....2
17 SCOTT WALKER NSH R ...33 36 18 .545....3
8 DANNY MARKOV NSH D .....58 62 31 .534.....4
14 VERNON FIDDLER NSH C ..40 42 21 .525.....5
2 MAREK ZIDLICKY NSH D ....67 .82 41 .500......6
19 SCOTT NICHOL NSH C ....34 79 17 .500....7
3 MARTIN ERAT NSH L ........80 76 38 .475....8
4 SCOTT HARTNELL NSH L ...81 101 38 .469.....9
6 RYAN SUTER NSH D ..........71 66 33 .464....10
23 JORDIN TOOTOO NSH R ....34 55 15 .441....11
5 DAN HAMHUIS NSH D ........82 70 35 .426....12
10 JERRED SMITHSON NSH C 66 54 27 .409....13
7 KIMMO TIMONEN NSH D ....79 74 32 .405....14
18 DAVID LEGWAND NSH C ..44 34 17 .386...15
9 DARCY HORDICHUK NSH L ..74 163 29 .392...16
11 STEVE SULLIVAN NSH R ..69 50 25 .362....17
20 SCOTTIE UPSHALL NSH R 48 34 17 .354....18
13 MARK EATON NSH D .......69 44 22 .318....19
12 MIKE SILLINGER NSH C ....79 63 24 .304....20
15 ADAM HALL NSH R .........75 40 20 .266....21
16 PAUL KARIYA NSH L .......82 40 20 .243...22
22 YANIC PERREAULT NSH C 69 30 15 .217...23
24 GREG JOHNSON NSH C ....68 10 5 .073...24

______

Observations:

For the most part.....our physical players are generally higher, and our softer players are generally lower, as you would expect.

But when you look a little closer you see:
- Eaton and Timonen are our least penalized dmen.
-Witt is in a class all his own
-Kariya and Sully are our among our least penalized wingers.
-Kariya's penalties came almost all at the beginning of the year, after that he pretty much quit hooking.
-Upshall surprisingly has a low penalty ratio for as gritty as he plays.
-Sillinger is fairly low as well.
-Hordy is lower on the list than I thought he would be, but probably alot due to playing only 4-6 minutes per game.
-Johnson has a very low ratio for our primary checking line center.
-Walker is surprisingly high.
-Perreault is just plain soft.
Zidlicky is very high for the type of game he plays....he is probably the guiltiest of the "lazy penalties"...followed by Erat and Hartnell.

So bottom line, I would argue that Timonen, Kariya, and Sullivan should not be considered the prime culprits of the lazy penalty syndrome

That data assumes a whole lot, and I think it's difficult to to say which penalties were of the physical variety and which were lazy hooks and holds. I can say this, a great portion of Kariya's, Sullivan's, and Perreault's minors were lazy, unnecessary penalties such as hooking. Those three don't get the roughing, charging, and elbowing calls all that often. Their penalties generally come from one of holding, hooking, slashing, or high-sticking. All are usually unnecessary penalties. It's completely misleading to show Kariya's 20 minors and compare them to someone like Weber who had several offsetting roughings.

And furthermore, with Kariya and Sullivan, there is almost no reason to commit a penalty. The only reason is to prevent a great scoring chance, but I would seriously doubt that anything more than a handful of those 45 combined minors involved taking a smart penalty. The usual penalty is them getting lazy and not skating. Unlike Timonen, Zidlicky, they are not expected to have to handle bigger players. They are not expected to have to step up and stop a Joe Thornton. They are rarely in a tussle with a big forward and get a holding call in the process. When they do commit a penalty, it is often because they were a step behind the play and instead of taking two powerful strides to catch up, they just reached out and latched on.

And Eaton and Timonen are our least likely to be penalized defenseman because, much like Kariya, Sullivan, and Perreault, there is only a handful of minors they'll commit. You'll rarely see a charging, roughing, etc. called on these guys. Because they don't play a physical game, they aren't exposed to the extra penalty calls that Weber or Witt will get. I would agree that Zidlicky seems more guilty of the lazy penalties, but he's often jumping into plays offensively and several of his might be attempting to keep a play from forming as opposed to a 'lazy' penalty. But I would imagine he's every bit as guilty as the rest of him and he and Perreault should be included in my group of 'worst offenders.' Still, he's not the positional player that either Timonen or Eaton is supposed to be, so he's expected to take more minors because he's dangerously out of the play.

The bottom line with our lazy forward trio of Perreault, Sullivan, and Kariya is that their penalty totals should mirror the other smart, soft, veteran forward on our team-Greg Johnson. That they are 3/4/5 times more is a telling sign.

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Old
05-11-2006, 09:42 AM
  #57
triggrman
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I think Upshall hits more than Hartnell, in fact according to NHL.com Upshall had 52 hits to Hartnells 58. Hartnell and Hall neither were overly physical this year both need to take some lessons from Smithson.

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Old
05-11-2006, 11:07 AM
  #58
handtrick
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeyClause
That data assumes a whole lot, and I think it's difficult to to say which penalties were of the physical variety and which were lazy hooks and holds. I can say this, a great portion of Kariya's, Sullivan's, and Perreault's minors were lazy, unnecessary penalties such as hooking. Those three don't get the roughing, charging, and elbowing calls all that often. Their penalties generally come from one of holding, hooking, slashing, or high-sticking. All are usually unnecessary penalties. It's completely misleading to show Kariya's 20 minors and compare them to someone like Weber who had several offsetting roughings.

And furthermore, with Kariya and Sullivan, there is almost no reason to commit a penalty. The only reason is to prevent a great scoring chance, but I would seriously doubt that anything more than a handful of those 45 combined minors involved taking a smart penalty. The usual penalty is them getting lazy and not skating. Unlike Timonen, Zidlicky, they are not expected to have to handle bigger players. They are not expected to have to step up and stop a Joe Thornton. They are rarely in a tussle with a big forward and get a holding call in the process. When they do commit a penalty, it is often because they were a step behind the play and instead of taking two powerful strides to catch up, they just reached out and latched on.

And Eaton and Timonen are our least likely to be penalized defenseman because, much like Kariya, Sullivan, and Perreault, there is only a handful of minors they'll commit. You'll rarely see a charging, roughing, etc. called on these guys. Because they don't play a physical game, they aren't exposed to the extra penalty calls that Weber or Witt will get. I would agree that Zidlicky seems more guilty of the lazy penalties, but he's often jumping into plays offensively and several of his might be attempting to keep a play from forming as opposed to a 'lazy' penalty. But I would imagine he's every bit as guilty as the rest of him and he and Perreault should be included in my group of 'worst offenders.' Still, he's not the positional player that either Timonen or Eaton is supposed to be, so he's expected to take more minors because he's dangerously out of the play.

The bottom line with our lazy forward trio of Perreault, Sullivan, and Kariya is that their penalty totals should mirror the other smart, soft, veteran forward on our team-Greg Johnson. That they are 3/4/5 times more is a telling sign.
feel free to break it down even further to the individual types of penalties so that we can better analyze what is actually lazy and what is not......while your at it, why don't you review the tapes to see if the holding was lazy, if the hooking was a legitimate call or not, and see if the dman was making up for his partner's mistake......
you can carry your points to the extreme, and I don't think anyone was trying to say that Kariya's penalties were similair to Weber's, etc....but the minor per game ratio does allow us to compare players beyond the generic PIMs, and compare like players to like players taking out the differential in games played.....that is all I was trying to do....

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05-11-2006, 11:16 AM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by handtrick
feel free to break it down even further to the individual types of penalties so that we can better analyze what is actually lazy and what is not......while your at it, why don't you review the tapes to see if the holding was lazy, if the hooking was a legitimate call or not, and see if the dman was making up for his partner's mistake......
you can carry your points to the extreme, and I don't think anyone was trying to say that Kariya's penalties were similair to Weber's, etc....but the minor per game ratio does allow us to compare players beyond the generic PIMs, and compare like players to like players taking out the differential in games played.....that is all I was trying to do....
OK, I just saw at the end where you said that it looks like Timonen, Kariya, and Sullivan should not be considered the prime culprits of the lazy penalty syndrome and my point was that could not be inferred from the data that you provided.

I appreciate your efforts, and they do shed light on a lot of things while reinforcing others. I didn't mean to undermine them entirely. I just think that using that data to support your 'bottom line' conclusion is difficult to do.

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05-11-2006, 04:37 PM
  #60
C-J Carlson
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LOOKING FOR: large, second-line center with decent passing, shooting and skating.

Here are my lines for next season...

Paul Kariya / David Legwand / Martin Erat (or Hartnell)
Steve Sullivan / (new, big center) / Scottie Upshall
Scott Hartnell (or Erat) / Mike Sillinger / Adam Hall
Darcy Hordichuk / Jerred Smithson / Jordin Tootoo

Kimmo Timonen / Danny Markov
Marek Zidlicky / Mark Eaton
Ryan Suter / Shea Weber

Sorry to Greg Johnson, Scott Walker, Yanic Perreault, Scott Nichol, Brendan Witt and Dan Hamhuis. See you later! (Hamhuis will be traded to get our big, second-line center.)

Anyhoo...

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05-11-2006, 04:54 PM
  #61
triggrman
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Trading Hamhuis at this point would be horrible, Hamhuis and Weber are the only two I wouldn't look at trading....

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05-11-2006, 05:24 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by triggrman
Trading Hamhuis at this point would be horrible, Hamhuis and Weber are the only two I wouldn't look at trading....
I definitely wouldn't be looking to trade Hamhuis unless an incredible package came along. Why trade the most mature and seasoned of our truly elite youngsters on D? Trading a guy like Suter doesn’t have a major impact on the team next year. Sure, we lose a 3rd pairing guy who has the potential to be a top 4 by the end of the year, but he's likely only going to be a #5 next year. Trading Hamhuis robs us of our best current defenseman, and forces us to look to fill a major hole in the top 4. And I just don't see Hamhuis' return being that much greater than Suter's. As such, I'd be much more inclined to let Suter go in an attempt to land "the big one" even though I think Suter will be better than Hammer in the long run. We have a nice window over the next couple of years. Sending away Hamhuis and replacing his roster spot with Suter probably isn't going to make us a better team for several years.

And if we are trading Hamhuis, we'd better be getting someone better than a second line center that can't beat out Legwand for the first spot. Really good centers are rare, that I understand. But a kid like Hamhuis should pull more than a guy like Jason Arnott.


Last edited by SmokeyClause: 05-11-2006 at 05:31 PM.
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05-11-2006, 10:47 PM
  #63
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Beauty doesn't like Hamhuis, having already rated Eaton above him.

If we traded Hamhuis and got only a second line center, even the best in the game, then you can expect me to start a "Poile must go" thread, within minutes.

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05-12-2006, 03:21 PM
  #64
C-J Carlson
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I'd definitely be willing to trade Ryan Suter instead of Dan Hamhuis to land that big second-line level center we need. We'd have to package more with Suter though, but we have the resources. It's just hard to find teams willing to give up a quality big second-line level center.

Anyhoo...

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05-12-2006, 03:42 PM
  #65
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About my roster for next season, we may not need that big, second-line level center if Alexander Radulov makes the team out of training camp. I'd try Radulov as a center on the first or second line, and see what happens. I'm optimistic that he'll be Nashville's first NHL superstar up front to come from the system. I can see him eventually holding Nashville's all-time goal, assist and point records. If he doesn't work out at center, I'd put him back on wing and try Scott Hartnell or Adam Hall at center. I've long thought those two - particularly Hall - should have been given good time at center to see what could happen with a big guy in the middle. Teams should test young players at different positions as soon as possible if they aren't already shining at their first positions. Might be too late for Hartnell. I could see Hall playing any position - even defense - and doing well. Most under-rated player from the past season.

Anyhoo...

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05-15-2006, 01:40 AM
  #66
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No. No. No...and did I say No?
Moving Radu to Center would be the biggest mistake you could ever make, and could quite possibly stunt his professional growth...all for a "test" to see if it would work. Get a guy who knows how to do the job and leave Radu out of the "center" equation.

(I see Adam Hall has become YOUR new Jeremy Stevenson...)

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05-15-2006, 01:04 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PredFred
No. No. No...and did I say No?
Moving Radu to Center would be the biggest mistake you could ever make, and could quite possibly stunt his professional growth...all for a "test" to see if it would work. Get a guy who knows how to do the job and leave Radu out of the "center" equation.

(I see Adam Hall has become YOUR new Jeremy Stevenson...)
I agree. Radulov does not fill Trotz mold for a center. If you want to change a young winger to center, Scottie Upshall fits the Preds mold. Don't move Radulov over and waste his offensive prowess by making him the first forward back on defense.

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05-16-2006, 07:21 PM
  #68
C-J Carlson
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PredFred
(I see Adam Hall has become YOUR new Jeremy Stevenson...)
No, no. While I was a booster of Stevenson - who I did believed was under-rated - I know Hall is a much superior player than Stevenson - but also under-rated. Kimmo Timonen is also one of the more under-rated players this past season (he's a team leader, and the leader on defense), while Dan Hamhuis has been over-rated. (Granted, he's still very good.)

As for the Alexander Radulov at center idea, I would much rather see someone like Scott Hartnell or Scottie Upshall, as someone mentioned, or definitely Hall tried up the middle.

Anyhoo...

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